Eight months and??????????

[clem]

Help me out, make me understand................

Well, it's been eight months since 9-11-01 and what has America accomplished? Osama and 90% of the Taliban leadership are still out there. The terrorists organizations that supports, works for OUR destruction is still out there. Their supporters, governments (Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia) and such are still out there. Saddam is still alive. Some of our "friends" are stabbing us in the back.
Maybe I'm from a different generation with different values but, 9-11-01 was much worst then Pearl Harbor and all we've done so far is chase some criminals out of control of a country. Kill a few thousand of their people. And the main export of this country was/is drugs and terror????? I seem to remember that in the past the United States took a very dim view of someone killing it's people, destroying it's property and invading it's borders. And woe to the country doing this. Germany and Japan remembers. But now, we've got some of our own people speaking out against America. Isn't there something called treason and sedition? Why are these people not arrested? Why are they not jailed? Why are they not on trial for their lives?

So what am I not seeing? What am I not understanding? What is wrong?


Clem
USMC Retired

[John/az2]

We are just a shadow of the great nation we once were.

This "war on terrorism" appears to be patterned after the "war on drugs", and all the excuses to abrogate our rights fall into place with it.

[4V50 Gary]

Patience.

Don't expect quick results with an elusive foe. Fighting terrorisim isn't like declaring war on a nation where to you destroy his army, seize his capital, carry off his women. It's slow and tedious intelligence to thwart attacks and remove threats. It stands to reason that as Al Queda members surface and are identified, they will be removed.

So, have we accomplished anything? Yes. We destroyed their base of operations and forced them into hiding. We've sent a message that we give payback and forced some to stand back from them (lest they fear our wrath). By the same token, we've avoided losing the morality issue which distinguishes us from them. We've not fallen for Bin Laden's scheme to wage a war against Islam and the Arab world. The more we can discredit him and cause others to shy away from him, the better off we and the world are. Be patient.

[Carry24x7]

No Osama - no victory.

No Omar - no victory.

We still have between 3,000 and 15,000 terrorists living here in the America right now. We haven't found a single one.

They kicked our ass and George let them get away with it.

[Seeker]

in the past the United States took a very dim view of someone killing it's people, destroying it's property and invading it's borders. And woe to the country doing this.

Bear in mind that the national military of Germany and Japan were the main opponents and were easy to identify as they wore the national emblems of their country. They were also geographically distinct in that you could point to Germany or Japan on a map. Al Quada is not a place, and from some things I've read recently it's not even a phrase used by those in it. We don't even know if the supposed leader is alive or dead much less where he might be located - and recently GWB has said he doesn't care about finding Osama.

Sure we bombed Afganistan and displaced the Taliban ( a governmet we gave milions of dollars to last year) but what has that got to do with Osama and Al Quada? Aside from the fact that he provided income (the same as the US). The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11, their only crime, in the eyes of the U.S. Gov, was failing to turn over Bin Laden when demanded. IIRC, the terrorists that were directly responsible for 9/11 were largely from Sausi Arabia, yet we have not even talked about bombing them, why? Our curent ally in the area, Pakistan, also ran/runs terrorist training camps. Why are they our ally?

Previously many people, including myself, thought that Clintons response to our embassy being blown up was less than halfa**ed, what has GWB done but a great deal of more of the same?

But now, we've got some of our own people speaking out against America. Isn't there something called treason and sedition?

Please see Amendment I, of the U.S. Constitution.

It seems to me the Sedition Act was basically unconstitutional.

This "war on terrorism" appears to be patterned after the "war on drugs", and all the excuses to abrogate our rights fall into place with it.

I think John makes an excellent point here. The War on Terror, the War on Drugs and the War on Guns are all aimed, one way or another, at limiting the Rights of the Free person and gigving the Feds more power to observe na dcontrol our daily lives.

[Vladimir_Berkov]

Don't expect quick results with an elusive foe. Fighting terrorisim isn't like declaring war on a nation where to you destroy his army, seize his capital, carry off his women. It's slow and tedious intelligence to thwart attacks and remove threats. It stands to reason that as Al Queda members surface and are identified, they will be removed.

Don't expect any victories with such a foe. Winning the "war on terrorism," is about as easy as winning the "war on drugs." Both involve ideas, not concrete nation-states. Indeed, the very concept that one can wage war on ideas is nonsense.

What does it take to be a terrorist? Some explosives, some guns, some boxcutters. Heck, a terrorist could crash his personal automobile into a group of soldiers and accomplish his goal.

Anybody has the potential to be a terrorist, all it takes is the will. And as of yet, there is no way to see into a person's mind and tell if he is a terrorist threat, and certainly no way to read the minds of the approximatly 6 billion people in the world.

Who cares if Osama is caught or Al Quada is destroyed? Yes, there will be the punative factor involved, but in terms of dealing with the threat such acts are useless. It is like a Hydra, with heads sprouting up even as some are cut off. And there is no way to kill the hydra. Like prostitution, what we call "terrorism" has been around about as long as human society has. That the USA in 2002 will suddenly stamp it out is about as likely as a group of Baptist revivalists will stamp out prostitution.

[Waitone]

One factor has changed, big time. We are now looking for them to act. Our previous posture was to look the other way and (I think) buy then off. Now we are in the hunt.

We've taken down their primary base of operations. They are now having to shift their bases to somewhere else. We are painting a picture of how their finances move.

We now have a president who understands clearly that terrorism is not a "nut with a gun." It is a means by which one state wages an asymetric form of war against another state. We now understand the military need to take the fight to the states that support terrorism.

What we have not done is act against those supporting states.

We also are about to finally conclude there is no difference between terrorism and drug trafficing. At some point the current president or his successor will draw the conclusion that a war on drugs is a war on terrorism. Someone will say out loud drug trafficing can not exist without support of states. We will then have to take action against those states as well.

[Byron Quick]

We hadn't accomplished all that much eight months after Pearl Harbor, either. Especially not in comparison with what remained to be done

[Standing Wolf]

If we had nuked the capitals of Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq at the outset, this discussion wouldn't even be a figment of anyone's imagination: we'd have won the war against terrorist savagry.

[Cal4D4]

Not exactly a surgical approach. A little more collateral damage than I would authorize.

[Cactus]

Well, I guess according to Carry24x7, we must have lost World War 2 since Emporer Hirohito was allowed to remain in power after the surrender! And there are people who will claim that we never really found Hitler either. I guess Harry let them get away with it!

Clem, you say you are from a different generation but you seem to be identifying with the "instant gratification" desires of the current generation. Other than the Gulf War, when have we had a war that didn't last years? We are dealing with an enemy that is well hidden, well financed and very diverse. It will take time to find them all and root them out.

Just read some of the responses here to see some of the difficulties we face. People claiming that there are 3,000 to 15,000 (where did these numbers come from?) terrorists in the U.S. and we haven't found a one. Other people seem to feel that the only aim in this war is for the Government to exert control over the lives of decent Americans (then again, you'll find a lunatic fringe that will say the same of traffic laws). And then we have people who wish to nuke the entire Muslim world!

We may never know for sure exactly what the Government is doing. How many attacks have been averted? How many terrorists have simply disappeared? We may never know!

[gburner]

Spartacus. By 8 months after Pearl Harbor, IIRC, we gave the Japs an ass whippin' at the Battle of Midway.

Seeker The military of Germany and Japan may have been our main opponents, but that didn't keep us from obliterating by air every major population, manufacturing and transportation center in each of those countries (with it's attendant civilian casualty count in the hundreds of thousands).

The truth is is that one of our main enemies is our denial and complacency as a nation. There doesn't seem to be the attendant urgency that would normally be associated with a MAJOR WAR EFFORT.
George Bush could parade Osama down Pennsylvania Avenue at the end of a long leash and the story would fight for attention in the media with the NBA playoffs, Chandra Levy, summer 'blockbuster' movies, baseball, shark attacks etc. No one seems to care about it aside from putting that flag decal on their car. 9/11 was not a wake up call as much as it was a media event. I'm afraid this country is gonna have to sustain a much bloodier nose before most folks get the picture. This war began when the hostages were taken in Iran 20+ years ago. We are only now beginnig to wake up to the necessity to persue it in deadly earnest. I hope it's not too late.

[clem]

Thanks to all for the comments and ideas.
I like gburner's thinking and logic.
And Standing Wolf has a point.

Cactus, the enemy is hidden and financed by our so called "friends". And I am of the Vietnam generation, one of those who fought for a country and people that abandoned us.
Yes, our complacency is going to bite us right on the butt.
They will hit us again, and hit us hard. Mark my word.

You see;
They will never stop, and we can not talk to them.
We can not make a deal with them.
They want us dead.
They want America destroyed.
They don't care.
There is nothing we can do as long as they live.
We will never be safe again.

Another thing, I find it very unusually that Barbara Olson, author of "Hell to Pay" and "The Unfolding Story of Hillary Rodham Clinton" and "The Final Days" was aboard the plane that was crashed in to the Pentagon. I wonder what the odds were of that occuring?

Am I the only one who wonders about this??????

Clem
USMC Retired (1965-1985)

Born in 1947.

[longeyes]

I concur with those who say we are still fat, sassy, and asleep as well as those who believe we need to punish, hard, at the source. I am also waiting for a vestige of some kind of "homeland security." I see next to nothing but smoke and mirrors, just politically compromised attempts that look more like window dressing than anything else. Where is anything resembling a civil defense program much less a mobilization or an empowering of citizen militias? And then there's the glaring lack of interest in securing our borders.

We have the ability to win this, but do we have the will? Big question.

[Carry24x7]

And we need a national lottery, televised, to pick winners to push the buttons!!

[Kaboom]

Well gee whiz. In a short eight months the very slow to move govt. has made air travel a very large pain in the posterior. They have profiled several people without calling it same. The land that was attacked sure has paid a high price for being the one attacked. As for those responsible, we blew up a few caves. Housed several in Cuba, with better conditions that several who live in the land of the attacked live in. Meanwhile the Saudi bankers have changed the money routing. Stay tuned for round two brought to you by D.C. dips***s.

[F350Lawman]

Well I wish we had taken more drastic action, the American public won't support it. The public (heavily influenced by the biased media) wants none of our troops to die and to surgically remove the terrorists w/o killing many foreign civilians and that's impossible. To really go all out we would have to lose more troops and kill many civilians. It's just not going to happen, sad as that is. I won't even get into the politicians who would bail at the first major lose of life our troops suffered. Our "allies' they're also a joke for the most part.

It's like the drug war comments people have been posting. Everybody's against drugs but the don't want the police to aggressively stop and search people, use heat detection devices on homes, use drug sniffing dogs in public,have spot checks on roads, profile, etc.

* if you follow the letter of the law regarding searches,probable cause, reasonable suspicion, you would make next to zero arrests. Forget that, just go into court and convey anything but 100% certainty and see what happens. NYC had double digit crime reductions for years because more people got stopped and searched...period. That was the great innovative tactics we used,now it's called profiling and everyone says it was never condoned. Hah! that's the funniest thing I ever heard.

You can't have one w/o the other.

Same goes with the illegal immigration. Everyone agrees it's a problem but no we can't have national IDs, stricter border controls, suspend student visas, stop the racial quotas of the Immigration and Naturalization Act, more delays at the airport, etc.

I'm not saying I'm for all these things but I'm tired of hearing the same people who whine about to much government action complain about why there are drugs and terrorism. If we want maximum freedom from government intervention fine. There is a downside to everything, just be consistent and accept it.

As far as the War on Terrorism it can be viewed as working so long as we're not being attacked. Let's not judge it until we see how many terrorist attacks occur over the next few years.

[Tom B]

Comparing the American people as a whole today with those people at the start of WWII is like comparing apples to oranges. Not the same! If we were really serious about taking on terrorists why don't we attack Iran, Libya, Sudan or Syria? Those countries really sponsor terrorism. We seem to pick easier targets. Iran is much deeper into terrorism than Iraq ever was. Bush going on past history feels than Iraq is an easier target. Its all politics my friends. 9-11 is fading in memory to many Americans now. The flags are coming down and the songs are not being sung anymore. On Memorial day you know how many American flags were flying on my street? Just one...at my house! What is at the root of American apathy? Many things but the largest factor is the public (government) school system IMO. Years ago the government wanted to train sheeple and now they have them. This may come back to haunt the government in the long run. Anyway we will watch this thing unfold (as well as George W) and we will hear for the umpteen time how the FBI is going to re-organize and do right and other government agencies are going to look at us as customers and INS is going to deport illegal aliens,yadda...yadda...yadda....yeah!

[Carry24x7]

The problem began on 9/12/01 when George decided he needed a coalition.

In my home I don't ask the wife if I can take out the trash, she tells me to do it. And she never tells me to get permission from the neighbors.

We needed (and need) a coalition like a moose needs a hat-rack!

Iraq is working like mad to build and hide as much bio- and chemo-weapons as it can, and George is begging Europe for permission to tell Iraq to stop being mean or else we might get angry. BS! Bomb their rag-ass and I guarantee they'll stop making WMD!

Iran is spending $100s of million on terrorism. I guarantee you bomb their rag-ass and they'll have something else to spend that money on instead of terrorism.

Terrorist organizations have well-known headquarters buildings in Syria and Libya and Iran. Why are those buildings still standing?

This is not JUST a world war. We also have thousands and thousands of the enemy who have successfully infiltrated our country.

We don't need politicians right now - we need LEADERS.

[ctdonath]

What I find puzzling is that no further attacks have happened since 9/11, save a few anthrax letters (seemingly non-Al-Qaidah), a plane crash (seemingly genuine malfunction/accident), and a few mailbox bombs (known homegrown left-wing extremist). Some attempts may have been thwarted and unpublished (fine), but I'm puzzled that there have been no actual attacks despite claims of "thousands" of terrorist agents ready to pounce.

[Carry24x7]

Perhaps genuine terror is best done only when you aren't expecting it?

But I have no idea what those rat-bastards are thinking or planning or when they'll do whatever they're gonna do. (Which means I could probably run the FBI as well as its being run now!)

[Don Gwinn]

Riiiigght. We'll just nuke everything in sight, and that will fix things. As someone who holds similar sentiments pointed out earlier, we aren't going to be able to use nuclear weapons to stop the next attack. The cells that will carry it out have probably been here five years or longer already, and we can't nuke Milwaukee and Burbank.

What do you suppose the rest of the world will do after we nuke a couple dozen cities full of innocents on a whim?

[DaveK]

Just to play Devil's Advocate for once, what _can_ the rest of the world do in light of the USA doing whatever the hell it wants?

[clem]

Well, right now I figure that it is us (America) against them (the rest of the world). So, any way we go or what ever we do should benifit the fight against the terrorist.

Its either them or us, there is no middle ground. So with that kind of choice, its easy.....its them. They die, they have signed and sealed their own death warrant.

Its time to remind the world just who America is and what real terror is.


Clem
USMC Retired

[Carry24x7]

The rest of the world can do what the rest of the world has already been told to do.

They can cease any support of terrorism.

They can identify, capture, hand over to us any terrorists.

They can obey now or pay later.