Why all the hate? The IPSC/IDPA debate

[faustulus]

Not having THR is killing me. Maybe this will generate some interest.
I shoot IDPA and IPSC(USPSA) and there are things I don't like about either of them, however, I shoot them and enjoy them. I bitch about them too. But often times, and I admit this is mostly in cyberspace, there is outrigtht animosity for one group toward the other. This seems to be the case mainly with IDPA toward IPSC, and I guess when you write the rulebook with every other page mentioning IPSC you kinda are setting yourself up for a fight. But this antipathy is something I just don't get.
I like both for different reasons.
IPSC engages my mind, it lets me be creative and a problem solver.
IDPA is abundent in my area and allows me more trigger time and everyone has to shoot the course the same way so we focus on speed and accuracy and not worry about which direction to run and which order to shoot the targets.
So the question is why can't we just get along?

[RickB]

I think the fact that IDPA was created by the same people as IPSC, with a mind to correcting the "mistakes" of IPSC, causes a certain amount of bitterness on the part of IPSC shooters. I mean, if I pursue something enthusiastically, and I like it a lot, and someone then tries to publicly "correct" it, I might feel kind of self-conscious about it.
Seriously, I've been shooting IPSC for eight years, and have helped run an IDPA club for three, and I can't figure out why there isn't more cross-over. I'll do just about anything that allows me to put holes in things, but others are not that way.

[OF]

We have tried to remove the feud at our IDPA club by instructing all our SO's and making the point in all our New Shooters Clinics that we run by the rulebook. That allows space for people to play just to the legal side of the rules, but outside of the 'purists' defensive-only game in order to get a competitive advantage and place higher in the standings. This is life. We encourage people to shoot their own game, to bring to the match what they want to bring and let others shoot it as they wish on that particular day. We also encourage people to shoot IDPA both ways: shoot it with the tricked out photog vest and the OWB one day and then next month try it with your IWB and whatever you normally use for concealment.

The point we make is that we will not 'chastise' people who are playing the game within the rules, just as we will protect those who wish to 'sneak up' to cover or what have you. If you are a purist, you are giving up competitive advantages to those who are in it to win. Get over it. There's no way around it. As soon as you post scores, someone is going to read the rulebook and try to figure out how to beat the guy they lost to last month. It's the way of the world. We don't try to fight it and we feel that strict adherence to the letter of the rulebook is the best way to avoid this friction. We couple that with a recommendation that if you are looking for stress-time on your carry rig, ignore the scoreboard. This is the best way to lose your bitterness at getting beat, and it only makes sense.

It's been working so far. We have USPSA and IDPA shooters side-by-side at every match, and we haven't had any issues. We all just get along.

- Gabe

[goalie]

All I know is that I shot 2 IDPA matches in Minnesota this summer (my first matches with a pistol ever) and they were great. When I asked about mag changes on certain COF they were great with letting me just drop the mag on the ground (as I have trained to do), even if not at slide-lock, and take the penalty instead of fumbling around with some reload that I do not have any time under my belt practicing. Nobody accused me of "gaming" or anything like that. Then again, shooting one of the "freestyle" scenarios one-handed (that's how I figured it would have played out in the real world, as, IMO, my left hand would have been pushing someone away) might have helped to remove any "gaming" label my illegal mag changes might have earned me.

FWIW, I didn't hear anyone badmouthing any other pistol competitions, and they even gave out dates and times for upcoming USPSA matches before we started shooting. It would appear that there is a lot of crossover shooters here in Minnesota.

[Jim Watson]

Most of the disputes seem to be by computer shooters.
A good shot can compete, do well, and have a good time by different sets of rules.
I think most of the rest of the venom is due to the similarities, not the differences.

[faustulus]

Seriously, I've been shooting IPSC for eight years, and have helped run an IDPA club for three, and I can't figure out why there isn't more cross-over.

That is interesting. I have noticed the same thing around here. There are several who shoot both, and there are more IPSC shooters who frequent IDPA but it seems like I never see IDPA people at IPSC matches. I wish there was more crossover, more people to shoot with, heck more clubs.

[Quartus]

I don't take part in the venom, but I've seen it, and I don't understand what the mystery is.

IPSC was founded to provide PRACTICAL pistol shooting competion. Real world defensive shooting competion, as far as that is possible. It stopped being that, and some people feel that's a betrayal of the original intent.

Not complicated. You don't even have to agree with it to understand why it's there.

[fyrestarter]

To me the debate ends with the fact that I shoot both, accept both their faults (IDPA's hypocritical equipment rules and IPSC's reloading race) and attempt to excel equally in both. Interestingly enough, the majority of my money goes to IPSC, but my awards say IDPA on them

I've gotten past the equipment problems by having dedicated gear for all of the possible competitons. What's great about shooting sports, though, is that this isn't really even neccessary -- a well tuned-1911 and a handful of 10-round mags (not to mention lots of practice time) will let you compete in IPSC, IDPA, Steel, ISU and Bullseye. If one is inclined to badmouth any of them, I suggest not showing up for the events. Shooters don't need negativity while engaging in competition and / or enjoyment.

[scottys1]

I love it!
I have been competing in local USPSA matches for about 5 years. I started in open class using iron sights simply because the gun I already had was ported. After shooting a while, I replaced it with a limited legal gun once I decided what I wanted. Everyone was very friendly and helpful.
I don't shoot to win; just to develop the skill, have fun at a challenging sport, and BS with my friends (not necessarily in that order).
I have never shot an IDPA match (plan to as time permits). I have three or four guns that would be suitable. I might even use a revolver, I've used one in a few USPSA matches. I'm sure I have many friends in IDPA, I just haven't met them yet.

[faustulus]

IPSC was founded to provide PRACTICAL pistol shooting competion. Real world defensive shooting competion, as far as that is possible. It stopped being that, and some people feel that's a betrayal of the original intent.

This hasn't been my experince. Most of the people I encounter with dislike toward one game or another are usually newer members. Certainly no one who has been around long enough to feel betrayed. A lot of times the prejudices involve erronous assumptions about the other game.(sometimes they are legitimate beefs -- or would it be beeves?) Most of the IDPA shooters I shoot with have never encountered IPSC.

Also your argument would tend to lean toward more bitterness on IPSC's side. I find it to be the opposite, if anything there predisposition by IDPA shooters to hate IPSC more so than the reverse.

[Quartus]

Also your argument would tend to lean toward more bitterness on IPSC's side. I find it to be the opposite, if anything there predisposition by IDPA shooters to hate IPSC more so than the reverse.

No, sir, you've got it backwards. The IDPA people who don't like IPSC are IDPA BECAUSE they don't like IPSC. As for the newer shooters, well, they can read.

[faustulus]

The IDPA people who don't like IPSC are IDPA BECAUSE they don't like IPSC

But why would those people care? They have IDPA. And many people who are in IDPA haven't shot IPSC and wouldn't know if they liked it or not.
Most people I know shoot becasue they want to see what they can do against other shooters and have a good time. There are one or two 'born again' IDPAers who believe in the whole 'training for real life' BS but most realize it is a game and something to do on a weekend. yes it improves skills but so does IPSC and Bullseye.
IPSC shooters on the other hand who have a problem tend to look at the young shooters in IDPA and make fun of their skill. (of course they aren't as good as IPSC shooters most of them have been doing it for only a few years.)
I can even understand good natured rivalry, but how many threads on IPSC/IDPA have been shutdown because of the behavior of the posters? It just strikes me as weird that this debate grows so passionate.

[Jeeper]

I think it really depends on the club and not the sport. Some clubs I have shot at were very very hostile to shooters who didnt shoot like them. I think it also has to do with the type of person who is drawn to each sport. My perception is that IPSC draws more younger shooters and more people that want to be very competitive. I dont see the reason for the tension since both involve exactly the same skills. I think that different people like different stuff. I have seen more hostility toward IPSC than the other way around but that is just my experience and it could vary from state to state.

[Handy]

Does it ever strike anyone that the founders of IDPA are all retiree age? It almost seems like they just formed the sport to have something to do that didn't involve moving too fast.


They could have used their influence to form a "Street Practical" division of IPSC, rather than a new game. Which is ultimately the source of this devisiveness.

[Jim Watson]

Being of retiree age myself, I recall when IPSC was going through the Gamesman vs Martial Artist schism in the early 1980s. I thought there was enough support then for a stockgun division that might have been "practical" enough to keep Wilson & co in the fold. But the management made the choice to go all racegun run 'n gun and about ten years later Wilson went his own way, essentially recreating IPSC when he was competitive.

I repeat, the reason there is so much quibbling between IPSC and IDPA is because they are so much ALIKE and everybody concentrating on one knows enough about the other to find fault. The differences are really trivial. Ask Rob Leatham.

[faustulus]

the reason there is so much quibbling between IPSC and IDPA is because they are so much ALIKE

So are you saying the they don't like each other because they are essentually the same and there is a sort of a 'dopplegagger effect' or that because they are so much alike they tend to harp on the subtle differences? Or am I missing it completely?

[Jim Watson]

The latter.
You don't hear many Sporting Clays shooters finding fault with CAS, do you? Most of them don't know what is going on over there in the first place; might as well compare with golf (eww.) Like I said, IDPA is a copy of IPSC ca 1980 and it is easy to nitpick.

[WESHOOT2]

Wilson told me "Nobody carries one a them Redhawks".

[Andrew Wyatt]

Me and dad recently shot our first IDPA match, and dad (who's an old SWPL/early IPSC hand) told me it reminded him of the good old days.


some of the stuff IDPA does i don't understand (tactical reloads with empty magazines) but i'll take my procedurals.

[Scooter2]

It's simple, it's call intimidation. I started in IPSC and going to IDPA was fairly simple, just a different set of rules. I manage to get a few IDPA shooters to try IPSC. First thing they notice, it's freakin hard. You actually have to think. Many are also scared of competing against open guns which is mostly due to ignorance of not understanding the rules and divisions.

As far as which is more practical, the best response I've ever seen is by Rob Leatham posted over at Brian Enos' forum.

I recently ran a class of military shooters, and among other things, ran them through the IDPA classifier, Participated in a local steel match and shot The Arizona State IDPA Championships! Let me share with you some interesting observations. They get more wound up and nervous in a match than they do in combat! Why? Because they have time to think about it and get tense! I respect these guys opinion more than ANY so called tactician out there who is sure he knows the tricks to surviving an armed confrontation. These guys have been doing that a bunch lately and think IDPA and IPSC shooting both offer much to the testing phase of ones ability. On the other hand, they to a man do not agree with the philosophies that either is inherently more practical. All the little things like which way do you turn or where you do the load is all something that we can discuss all day on the range, but on the battlefield, men do things that may not be considered practical or tactical and live because they did it fast, accurately and decisively. On the other hand, there are those who did it "right" by some folks judgement and still lost. We all have our ideas of how it should be done, and the rules of the existing games are just that, some ones ideas. To say going to any kind of shooting event will teach you technique that will get you killed is idiotic and irresponsible. Guys, it is cool to have your own plan but do not try to pass it off as gospel to the rest of us. A discussion of technique and philosophy seldom ends with agreement, but that does not make the other guy wrong or stupid. These are just games designed to test your abilities in a very controlled and pre-planned arena. Who wins is your best shot, not your most likely survivor. That can not be tested under the clock. However, those that master executing under the timer are probably more likely to do well in a pressure situation, than someone who chokes, misses or gets procedural penalties. This is a point the boys all agree on, thus they train hard and test themselves in the arena of competition to see what they know and whether they can do it.
Rob

[LiveWire]

What's all the fuss? IPSC is more sport oriented; IDPA, more personal defense oriented. "What's your pleasure?" is all I'd say.

[OF]

"What's your pleasure?" is all I'd say.

Both please! And anything else anyone can dream up. Give 'em to me!

- Gabe

[bulm5]

thaye are both a game, shoot both and enjoy.

[Number 6]

Anything more is just the gun game version of the mindless Ford v. Chevy, Coke v. Pepsi, stick v. auto "debates" - pointless.

[faustulus]

Anything more is just the gun game version of the mindless Ford v. Chevy, Coke v. Pepsi, stick v. auto "debates" - pointless

like 9mm vs. .45