New reloader looking for some guidence

[MattRad]

Hey all. First off, i'm new to the forums and to reloading, so be gentle As I said, brand new to reloading and looking for some experts to check my work and make sure i'm off to a good start. Right now i'm loading 9mm only to start. Using the following load:

Using a Lee turret press and 9mm Lee Die set (4 die set with crimp die)

Bullets - Barrys Copper Plated RN 115gr 9mm
Primers - Winchester WSP
Powder - HP-38 4.6gr (+/- .1gr)
OAL - 1.135 (+/- .010 or so)
Shooting from a Glock 19 to start

I had a couple questions I wanted top run by some pros. I have searched so apologies if I missed an obvious post or Google reference.

- Most importantly is the starting load of 4.6gr for this particular load a good place to start? I did a lot of research through load data and that seemed to be the safe starting load that I could find.

-I've noticed when I seat my bullets the case seems to bulge all the way around the case just a bit where the bottom of the bullet would be inside the case. I assume this is normal as the bullet is pushing out the brass walls of the case a tiny bit when seated. I have adjusted my powder/flare die to flare only the tiniest bit when i can barley get the bullet to stay in place to be seated, so I don't think I have too much flare.

-I noticed when I went to test a few at the range yesterday I would get a very bright muzzle flash upon firing some rounds (maybe 1 out of 5 or so). I am very, very careful to make sure I am loading exactly within -/+ .1 gr. All those loads I checked the charge weight on 2 different scales every few rounds so i'm sure they were charged correctly. I am also using a very light crimp. Enough to keep the bulled from falling out and not much else. In addition, the recoil didn't seem to change with this brighter flash. I hadn't cleaned my Glock since firing a couple hundred factory rounds before this visit to the range so was it just unburned powder maybe, or am I doing something wrong?

Any hints or tips would be great. Thanks in advance!

[Road_Clam]

I've done some .40 S&W loads for my Glock G35 , and while i'm only an amateur pistol reloader I can tell you I don't notice a whole heck of a lot of differences between loading min to max suggested charges. I do notice a difference in felt recoil. As for accuracy my Glock seems to do the most consistent at about 4.6gr of WST using a 180 grain RNFP bullet. This load yields me about 930 fps. I loaded from 4.4 to 5.2 and didn't see much difference. I also tested with Unique but that flake powder is very fussy to meter through my LEE pro auto disc so I prefer the WST which is a ball powder. I'm sure some more expert pistol loaders will chime in and give you some more precise info.

[Kosh75287]

Are you sorting cases by headstamp? Are the "flashy" rounds usually of the same headstamp?

You might try increasing the crimp just a little, like maybe 1/8th of turn. It sounds like some cases are getting adequate crimp and the "Flashy" ones might not be getting adequate crimp. A small adjustment in the direction of more crimp may reduce or eliminate the problem, while not excessively crimping the others.

[Smoke & Recoil]

When I taper crimp my 9mm loads, I do the...push the hose against
the loading bench test, if the bullet doesn't move with moderate pressure
applied, you're good to go. As for as the bulge you're seeing, that's all
normal. The muzzle flash you see could be caused from a slightly tight
crimp, but don't get hung up on the muzzle flashes.

I load my 9mm with 8gr of Blue Dot, Winchester 115gr RNFB and CCI
small pistol primers. And now for the bashing crowd, I shoot a Liama.

Look at a few different load manuals to compare loads when you're ready
to try different powders, bullets etc.

[Sevens]

Here's a few things that I can gather from what you've presented, hope they help.

You noticed maybe 1-in-5 that were flashy? I'll bet all five were just the same, it's just darn difficult to catch the flash each and every time and even perfect handgun ammo isn't going to give the same visible flash every single time, always. If they feel similarly and they land close to each other (your skill has input here also!) then most likely, they are all good to go.

CRIMP. Get on board early now that when loading a semi-auto pistol round, your crimp is a taper crimp, the purpose of which is NOT to "hold the bullet in place." The taper crimp's job is to un-do the earlier case mouth flare and build a nice profile that the pistol likes. The bullet is kept in place by proper case mouth tension, which was imparted upon the case by your sizing die. Attempting to "increase" your grip on the bullet by giving it MORE taper crimp is only going to grind things to a halt. Seat your bullet, take the entire loaded round and forcefully push it (nose first) in to the edge of your load bench and see that it does not want to slip deeper in to the case with little force. It should not.

The fourth die in your set (the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die or FCD) can and will impart a totally different kind of crimp on that loaded round, but I would suggest you leave that die entirely out of this work for now and attempt to make proper ammo without it... as handloaders had done for the first 70+ years before that die was invented and marketed.

As to the odd kind of a look you see where the case appears "bulged" around the bullet? Well, good news! In the case of 9mm, it may look like a straight wall case, but it isn't. It is lightly tapered and because of this, the sizing die tends to UNDERSIZE the case mouth because it will need to be able to size the case head, and the case head is slightly larger than the case mouth. Using standard dies and a press like we all use, 9mm comes out looking that way simply because it's a tapered case. .30 Carbine is very much the same way and may be even more obvious. But the ammo will run beautifully and it will shoot well.

As to your load data, I don't use that powder... but I do trust Hodgdon, and if they like that data, I like that data. When I work with plated bullets (easily over 100k of them and more more more upcoming), I use jacketed bullet data regardless of what ANYONE thinks, and regardless of what even Berry's has published. My ammo is fantastic.

[MattRad]

I really appreciate all the replies. What stood out to me was crimp was mentioned a few times. I got this from Barry's Bullets website:

"We recommend very little crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target." (http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-H...d_Bullets.aspx)

I made a cartridge and then pulled it. Even with the very slight crimp I have set, the copper was dented in all the way around the base of the bullet. Next, I made a cartridge and skipped crimping. I them measured OAL, drew a line all the way around the base of the bullet as a reference with a fine tip Sharpe, and then pushed it nose down hard into my bench a few times. It didn't move a bit. I then pulled it. Just light scratching where it was pushed into the case, no denting at all.

I'm starting to believe the crimp isn't needed as long as i'm not flaring too much, at least for 9mm. That bullet isn't going anywhere with my current setup. I figure with no crimp my finished cartridges should be more consistent in accuracy as well. Thanks a ton for all the advice. Also, any tips for loading .45 ACP? That will be my next step after 9mm.

[Sevens]

Again, just to be clear, when using just your 3rd die in the set (the one that seats bullets AND has the ability to crimp), it is a taper crimp that it will impart. And you can adjust from "none" to "wayyy too much" by how deeply you set the entire die in to the press.

Some taper crimp is necessary to remove the mouth flare from the previous step and make the round happy to feed & fit the pistol's chamber.

A very good idea when setting up dies and getting the feel for doing this is to remove the barrel from your pistol and bring the barrel to the load bench. One of your loaded rounds should drop freely in to the chamber and seat fully -- and inverting the barrel should have the loaded round fall back out under it's own weight.

I'm starting to believe the crimp isn't needed as long as i'm not flaring too much, at least for 9mm.

I agree with this, especially the last bit that I underlined.

As you progress to other calibers and different types of loads, you will find that a solid ROLL crimp becomes quite necessary in some (not all) revolver rounds and it is a crimp like this that will quickly find the limits of plated bullets. It's at this point when plated bullets are NOT what you really need to be using, but that's going to be for full magnum bombs in larger revolver rounds using slow burning powder.

[MattRad]

Ok, I understand you now on the seating die now that I look over the Lee documentation again. i'm still getting some taper crimp with that 3rd die just to remove the flare I created with the powder/flare die. I'll test it with my barrell and as long as it seats and isn't denting the bullet I think i'll be in good shape. I'm assuming if I switch to FMJ or JHP bullets I may need to adjust.

[Nick_C_S]

Most importantly is the starting load of 4.6gr for this particular load a good place to start?

That's exactly where I started with a plated 115gn RN - 4.6 grains.

They chronographed at 1068 f/s through a 3.7" bbl; and 1124 f/s through a 5" bbl.

Since my purpose was just to make good consistent range shooting ammo, I left it there and did no further working up. I was fine with it right there.

[chris in va]

but I would suggest you leave that die entirely out of this work for now and attempt to make proper ammo without it... as handloaders had done for the first 70+ years before that die was invented and marketed

A caveat.

I must use the 'fourth' die or FCD as it's called for my lead bullets. If I don't, every so often I get one with an odd bulge that refuses to chamber. The die ensures the exterior diameter and shape will chamber in any SAAMI spec gun. You may or may not need it using Berry's, probably not with real FMJ.

[Smoke & Recoil]

I suggest that you not load a bunch of JHP bullets the first time out or flat
points either, just load up a couple dummy rounds first to see if they'll behave
on the chamber feed ramp. Some feed ramps are more picky than others as
to nose style.

[MattRad]

After some further tinkering I have settled on a load for my 9mm. Really the same as I was using in previous posts.

Bullets - Barrys Copper Plated RN 115gr 9mm
Primers - Winchester WSP
Powder - HP-38 4.6gr (+/- .1gr)
OAL - 1.135 (+/- .010 or so)

This load seems to be just as accurate (if not more so) than any of my factory ammo. I have stopped using the 4th FCD die and have had no issues with bullet setback or chambering in either my Glock 19 or Springfield XDS. However, I brought 100 rounds of this exact load to the range yesterday and noticed after shooing all 100 rounds there was a significant amount of unburnt powder on the bench. Maybe a few cases worth. Again, the loads shot flawlessly, but I was wondering if I am doing something wrong or if there is an adjustment I should be making.

[Smoke & Recoil]

Unburnt powder is a sign of to light a load and/or not enough
bullet tension. Unburnt powder isn't a bad thing...it just means
you'll have to do a good cleaning of our firearm.

[MattRad]

Ok, makes sense. I know I don't need to "fix" the issue, but if I were to try what would be the best course of action?

Increase preasure by either adjusting my seating depth/OAL (it is set pretty long)

Add more powder

Have more of a taper crimp (or even start using the factory crimp die again)?

[Sevens]

Attempting to raise your pressure by shortening your COAL is not a good idea, especially in a high pressure AND small space case like 9mm.

A far better idea is to start by building your ammo with a known, normal, average COAL (comparing directly to factory ammo of the same bullet weight, shape & style is a fine way) and then using small increases in powder charge weight it a far better idea.

[hartcreek]

Your OAL of 1.135 is a bit long for some guns and would probably not plunk in a Walter.

Which crimp you use is up to you and you can over do the crimp with either die. To get the crimp right you need to be just taking the bell out and only one or two thousands more.. Use your calipers to measure it if you have to.

I use a roll crimp and contrary to stevens my crimp die is at least 50 years old and made by RCBS

[Nick_C_S]

Attempting to raise your pressure by shortening your COAL is not a good idea, especially in a high pressure AND small space case like 9mm.

. . . ^^ +1 ^^

9mm - being such a small cartridge - can be a little tricky. COAL's generally shouldn't be messed with. "Set it, and forget it" is the best approach.

Light 115 grainers give you some wiggle room and forgiveness. HP-38 is indeed a fast powder, but actually has a little "slowness" to it. Meaning, the two together (the powder characteristics and the light bullet) allows you to step up the charge with minimal concern. If 4.6 grains isn't running clean (which I find curious, but fair enough), you almost certainly have the headroom to increase the charge to get it to clean up.

115/HP-38 is a good combination. You'll find the sweet spot.

[MattRad]

Thanks for the replys all. I think I leave my COL alone for the moment. My rounds pass the plunk test and feed well in both my Glock 17 (4" BBL) and Springfield XD-S (3.3 BBL). With that said I guess it's time to start tinkering with my charge. Max for FMJ/GDHP according to Hodgon Load Data 5.1 is max. Since i'm using plated bullets (Berry's) I figure I need to stay around 4.9/5 to be safe as FMJ data provides 5%-8% more velocity with their bullets according to Berry's. One of these days i'll invest in a chrono...