Anyone ever point shoot??

tokarevman · February 1, 2005, 08:29 PM

I am not shure what to call it but you hold the gun to your side and shoot at a target moving your body and look were you aiming and not down the gun? Some guys at the range were doing it this weekend and they talked me into trying it was realy fun, and i got prety good at it i was hitting the can about 6 out of 8 times and it was a blast.

OBIWAN · February 1, 2005, 08:36 PM

My first handgun was a ruger single six (.22lr)with fixed sites

Shooting from the him was about as accurate as anything!

Ozzieman · February 1, 2005, 08:38 PM

I had a good rig for a gold cup and I practiced fast draw, point and shoot
Started at 5 feet from the target and worked back to 15 feet, I was ok with what I did, but the one thing that I noticed was that it really helped with point shoting, and that was what the man said that showed me how.
He was some one that carried a gun and rode on Harry Trumans train.

Dwight55 · February 1, 2005, 10:55 PM

I am certainly no expert at doing so, . . . but you will find that a 1911 is one of the very best for this type of shooting. You don't shoot from the "hip" though, . . . it is where your hand comes to a stop as you straighten the lower half of your arm out as though you were pointing at your target with your trigger finger. If you are old enough to remember, . . . kinda like old James Arness did it at the beginning of Gunsmoke.

It's kinda fun, . . . but you can flat burn up some ammo playing with this.

May God bless,
Dwight

BillCA · February 1, 2005, 11:49 PM

"Point shooting" used to be taught at the FBI and Border Patrol agency ranges until the introduction of the "Weaver stance" and other modern techniques.

Nothing wrong with learning to point shoot. Whether it's from the hip a-la an old west gunslinger, the old (arm over your heart) FBI crouch or simply an unaimed shot, knowing how to "point & click" on your target is a valuable skill.

For fun, turn a standard silhouette target around and draw the outline of it in black felt marker. Put a black dot in the X ring or use an orange sticky dot. Stand about 12-15 feet away. Draw & fire one round. Hold your weapon's position while you look at the hit. Think about the adjustment then do it on the next shot. Until satisfied, repeat.

Try it at different ranges to see what happens.

Don't hurry it but don't take time to "try" to aim it either. The idea is to build a skill set where you can hit your target with good accuracy at up to 25 feet without needing to aim. Hitting an 8" pie plate at 25' consistently is good.

bubbygator · February 2, 2005, 12:04 AM

Do a search here & on High Road - there's lots of expert opinion on both sides.

When my eyes started to age, I began point-shooting with an S&W 60. As most people say, it can be done well enough for 5-10 yard defense.

Now I have Crimson Trace lasergrips on all my guns & I'm good-to-go at 15 yards all day long with the laser - plus, I'm confident enough now with my laser shooting to use the iron sights even though they're blurry. You use whatever tools and techniques that work for you.

tokarevman · February 2, 2005, 06:33 AM

cool thanks for the info, i can not wait to get to the range and do it some more.

bergwerk · February 5, 2005, 07:34 PM

How about shooting skeet clays with a DA revolver drawn from the holster?

tokarevman · February 5, 2005, 08:07 PM

Id try if i had a place to.

Wynterbourne · February 5, 2005, 08:10 PM

Honestly, that's how I learned how to shoot. I swear, I think I was 15 before I learned that there was something called 'aiming'.

bergwerk · February 5, 2005, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Id try if i had a place to.

Prado Olympic range (SoCal) on days closed to the general public.

**4V50 Gary** · February 5, 2005, 09:01 PM

Fun, fun, fun. Did I mention point shooting is fun?

beenthere · February 5, 2005, 10:43 PM

That used to be "part" of our training regimen. It worked well at 10' and fairly well at 21' for me. After that I tended to get kind of eratic probably meaning I didn't spend enough time working on it.

abelew · February 17, 2005, 09:21 PM

I think its a good skill for short ranges where accuracy needs to be sacrificed for speed of shots on target. A guy within 21 feet with a knife will be able to kill you before you can get your gun out of the holster. That kind of situation is where the necessity of point shooting is evident. Accuracy is paramount, but if you get stabbed looking down your sights looking for the perfect shot, the application of your firearm for self defence is moot, you would be better off using hand to hand (better chance you havent added another weapon to the fight that can be taken and used against you).

Archie · February 17, 2005, 11:39 PM

There are two, and possibly three different levels of 'point shooting'.

One is the hip shooting sort of thing. Gun is barely out of the holster, still near the waistline. This is sometimes called the 'retention' position, as the adversay cannot grab your gun very well. The downside is that accuracy is very short ranged, muzzle blast can impinge on your body (clothing) and face, and you can set yourself on fire. Supposedly, this is fastest way to get a shot off, but I have my doubts. I always see the shooter 'searching' with his pistol for an aiming point.

Two is 'point shoulder' - arms outstretched, both hands on gun, sort of looking over the sights and down the plane of the barrel or slide. This gets the muzzle blast and flame away from your body, gives much more directional control over the shots fired, and gives a greater feeling of security in the shooting. Downside is the gun is out to be grabbed, if the adversary is that close, and since the gun is at eye level anyway, why not aim and be sure of a hit?

The maybe third technique is the 'halfway' position. This is one-handed, with arm extended somewhat, but not up to eye level. This is the FBI crouch or "Gunsmoke" technique. Range is limited, but time to first shot is not much less than with an aimed shot.

In no event is there ever any need to fire more than two shots 'pointed'. By the time one gets to the third shot, enough time has elapsed to bring the gun to eye level and get a sight picture. Presuming one has sufficient light to obtain the sights.

Point shooting really comes into its own in semi-darkness. However, the best position for this is the 'point-shoulder' version I listed above as 'Two'. I've found in testing new shooters that once they learn to fire two handed aimed fire, removing the sights still allows a fair amount of accuracy from 'muscle memory'.

And yes, it is fun to blaze away in this manner.

Jungle Work · February 18, 2005, 01:11 AM

Only way to go at belly button ranges.

Jungle Work

jem375 · February 18, 2005, 01:22 AM

That was the way I was taught at my CC class and it works very well....7-10 yards point shoot, anything over use sights...........

LAK · February 18, 2005, 04:11 AM

BillCA,

The Air Force was teaching a combination that included positions like the shoulder point and the old FBI crouch in the 1970s.

PressCheck · February 18, 2005, 03:54 PM

Only at "bad breath" distance. I point shoot from a retention position.

jerryd · February 18, 2005, 04:14 PM

Did it plenty of times in RVN, dont know if i hit anything but made alot of noise and sprayed alot of lesd!!! Like the above,poster said the 1911 is a natural for point shooting, but alot of indoor ranges frown upon the practice!

abelew · February 18, 2005, 06:44 PM

The air force is not teaching any point shooting now (Was a Cop in the AF, and never got that bit of learnin') I got out last october, FWIW

Rob Pincus · February 18, 2005, 11:11 PM

I teach it every day.. Combat Focus is what we call it.

-Rob

abelew · February 18, 2005, 11:18 PM

I wish they would have, I think its great when empolyed under the right circumstanes

Sweatnbullets · February 19, 2005, 01:12 AM

Rob, that's Vahalla right? I've trained with Richard S. many times.

Could I ask where you learned PSing and where does "Combat Focus" roots come from. I'm thinking about making the trip to Colorado to train with R.S. again and the "Combat Focus" course looked very interesting.

Thanks in advance

Lion In Winter · February 19, 2005, 06:30 AM

"Combat Focus"? Brilliant! If you can get this term accepted as a descriptor of point shooting, we might well see a revival of interest in a time proven technique.

How long did you debate adding "Tactical" to the term before discarding it?(grin)

(Having re read the above, please understand that I am not being sarcastic. Many modern hobbyist defensive handgunners are, in my opinion, trend followers not free thinkers.)

February 1, 2005, 08:29 PM	#1
tokarevman Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Posts: 167	Anyone ever point shoot?? I am not shure what to call it but you hold the gun to your side and shoot at a target moving your body and look were you aiming and not down the gun? Some guys at the range were doing it this weekend and they talked me into trying it was realy fun, and i got prety good at it i was hitting the can about 6 out of 8 times and it was a blast. __________________ I cant spell

February 1, 2005, 08:38 PM	#3
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	Yes but it was part of another excersize I had a good rig for a gold cup and I practiced fast draw, point and shoot Started at 5 feet from the target and worked back to 15 feet, I was ok with what I did, but the one thing that I noticed was that it really helped with point shoting, and that was what the man said that showed me how. He was some one that carried a gun and rode on Harry Trumans train.

February 1, 2005, 10:55 PM	#4
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	I am certainly no expert at doing so, . . . but you will find that a 1911 is one of the very best for this type of shooting. You don't shoot from the "hip" though, . . . it is where your hand comes to a stop as you straighten the lower half of your arm out as though you were pointing at your target with your trigger finger. If you are old enough to remember, . . . kinda like old James Arness did it at the beginning of Gunsmoke. It's kinda fun, . . . but you can flat burn up some ammo playing with this. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

February 1, 2005, 11:49 PM	#5
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	"Point shooting" used to be taught at the FBI and Border Patrol agency ranges until the introduction of the "Weaver stance" and other modern techniques. Nothing wrong with learning to point shoot. Whether it's from the hip a-la an old west gunslinger, the old (arm over your heart) FBI crouch or simply an unaimed shot, knowing how to "point & click" on your target is a valuable skill. For fun, turn a standard silhouette target around and draw the outline of it in black felt marker. Put a black dot in the X ring or use an orange sticky dot. Stand about 12-15 feet away. Draw & fire one round. Hold your weapon's position while you look at the hit. Think about the adjustment then do it on the next shot. Until satisfied, repeat. Try it at different ranges to see what happens. Don't hurry it but don't take time to "try" to aim it either. The idea is to build a skill set where you can hit your target with good accuracy at up to 25 feet without needing to aim. Hitting an 8" pie plate at 25' consistently is good. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

February 2, 2005, 06:33 AM	#7
tokarevman Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Posts: 167	cool thanks for the info, i can not wait to get to the range and do it some more. __________________ I cant spell

February 1, 2005, 08:36 PM	#2
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	My first handgun was a ruger single six (.22lr)with fixed sites Shooting from the him was about as accurate as anything!

February 2, 2005, 12:04 AM	#6
bubbygator Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2004 Location: Sarasota Posts: 130	Do a search here & on High Road - there's lots of expert opinion on both sides. When my eyes started to age, I began point-shooting with an S&W 60. As most people say, it can be done well enough for 5-10 yard defense. Now I have Crimson Trace lasergrips on all my guns & I'm good-to-go at 15 yards all day long with the laser - plus, I'm confident enough now with my laser shooting to use the iron sights even though they're blurry. You use whatever tools and techniques that work for you.

February 5, 2005, 07:34 PM	#8
bergwerk Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Posts: 142	How about shooting skeet clays with a DA revolver drawn from the holster?

February 5, 2005, 08:07 PM	#9
tokarevman Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Posts: 167	Id try if i had a place to. __________________ I cant spell

February 5, 2005, 08:10 PM	#10
Wynterbourne Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2004 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 292	Honestly, that's how I learned how to shoot. I swear, I think I was 15 before I learned that there was something called 'aiming'. __________________ They got mine once. Never again. Molon Labe! "You can say ‘stop’ or ‘alto’ or use any other word you think will work, but I’ve found that a large bore muzzle pointed at someone’s head is pretty much the universal language." - Clint Smith 9mm. Because no matter how you try to rationalize it, .45 ACP is still for people trying to compensate for -something-.

February 5, 2005, 09:01 PM	#12
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Fun, fun, fun. Did I mention point shooting is fun? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

February 5, 2005, 10:43 PM	#13
beenthere Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2004 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 460	Point shooting That used to be "part" of our training regimen. It worked well at 10' and fairly well at 21' for me. After that I tended to get kind of eratic probably meaning I didn't spend enough time working on it.

February 17, 2005, 09:21 PM	#14
abelew Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 778	I think its a good skill for short ranges where accuracy needs to be sacrificed for speed of shots on target. A guy within 21 feet with a knife will be able to kill you before you can get your gun out of the holster. That kind of situation is where the necessity of point shooting is evident. Accuracy is paramount, but if you get stabbed looking down your sights looking for the perfect shot, the application of your firearm for self defence is moot, you would be better off using hand to hand (better chance you havent added another weapon to the fight that can be taken and used against you). __________________ "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." ~ Mohatma Gandhi

February 17, 2005, 11:39 PM	#15
Archie Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2000 Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Hear Posts: 2,209	If I may... (and you really can't stop me, anyway) There are two, and possibly three different levels of 'point shooting'. One is the hip shooting sort of thing. Gun is barely out of the holster, still near the waistline. This is sometimes called the 'retention' position, as the adversay cannot grab your gun very well. The downside is that accuracy is very short ranged, muzzle blast can impinge on your body (clothing) and face, and you can set yourself on fire. Supposedly, this is fastest way to get a shot off, but I have my doubts. I always see the shooter 'searching' with his pistol for an aiming point. Two is 'point shoulder' - arms outstretched, both hands on gun, sort of looking over the sights and down the plane of the barrel or slide. This gets the muzzle blast and flame away from your body, gives much more directional control over the shots fired, and gives a greater feeling of security in the shooting. Downside is the gun is out to be grabbed, if the adversary is that close, and since the gun is at eye level anyway, why not aim and be sure of a hit? The maybe third technique is the 'halfway' position. This is one-handed, with arm extended somewhat, but not up to eye level. This is the FBI crouch or "Gunsmoke" technique. Range is limited, but time to first shot is not much less than with an aimed shot. In no event is there ever any need to fire more than two shots 'pointed'. By the time one gets to the third shot, enough time has elapsed to bring the gun to eye level and get a sight picture. Presuming one has sufficient light to obtain the sights. Point shooting really comes into its own in semi-darkness. However, the best position for this is the 'point-shoulder' version I listed above as 'Two'. I've found in testing new shooters that once they learn to fire two handed aimed fire, removing the sights still allows a fair amount of accuracy from 'muscle memory'. And yes, it is fun to blaze away in this manner. __________________ There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus. Archie Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/

February 18, 2005, 01:11 AM	#16
Jungle Work Junior member Join Date: January 31, 2005 Location: 20 Miles from Water, 2 Miles from Hell Posts: 282	Only way to go at belly button ranges. Jungle Work

February 18, 2005, 01:22 AM	#17
jem375 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2002 Location: Minnesota Posts: 390	That was the way I was taught at my CC class and it works very well....7-10 yards point shoot, anything over use sights........... __________________ Life is too short to spend it with an ugly gun..... NRA Life Member

February 18, 2005, 04:11 AM	#18
LAK Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251	BillCA, The Air Force was teaching a combination that included positions like the shoulder point and the old FBI crouch in the 1970s.

February 18, 2005, 03:54 PM	#19
PressCheck Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2000 Location: PRK Posts: 112	Only at "bad breath" distance. I point shoot from a retention position.

February 18, 2005, 04:14 PM	#20
jerryd Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2004 Location: Ct. Posts: 131	Did it plenty of times in RVN, dont know if i hit anything but made alot of noise and sprayed alot of lesd!!! Like the above,poster said the 1911 is a natural for point shooting, but alot of indoor ranges frown upon the practice!

February 18, 2005, 06:44 PM	#21
abelew Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 778	The air force is not teaching any point shooting now (Was a Cop in the AF, and never got that bit of learnin') I got out last october, FWIW __________________ "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." ~ Mohatma Gandhi

February 18, 2005, 11:11 PM	#22
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	I teach it every day.. Combat Focus is what we call it. -Rob __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

February 18, 2005, 11:18 PM	#23
abelew Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 778	I wish they would have, I think its great when empolyed under the right circumstanes __________________ "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." ~ Mohatma Gandhi

February 19, 2005, 01:12 AM	#24
Sweatnbullets Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2002 Posts: 263	Rob, that's Vahalla right? I've trained with Richard S. many times. Could I ask where you learned PSing and where does "Combat Focus" roots come from. I'm thinking about making the trip to Colorado to train with R.S. again and the "Combat Focus" course looked very interesting. Thanks in advance __________________ "Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts

February 19, 2005, 06:30 AM	#25
Lion In Winter Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Posts: 67	"Combat Focus"? Brilliant! If you can get this term accepted as a descriptor of point shooting, we might well see a revival of interest in a time proven technique. How long did you debate adding "Tactical" to the term before discarding it?(grin) (Having re read the above, please understand that I am not being sarcastic. Many modern hobbyist defensive handgunners are, in my opinion, trend followers not free thinkers.)