Automatic weapon

Firepower! · February 9, 2009, 01:32 AM

In a HD situation would chose an automatic weapon or not?

Assumption: cost and law are not factors to be considered. Setting is urban but not densily populated.

Please discuss your reasoning.

B. Lahey · February 9, 2009, 01:55 AM

I would probably stick with a regular shotgun. At close range it's tough to beat.

vox rationis · February 9, 2009, 02:12 AM

full auto? shotgun?

why not have both friends?

Saiga 12 full auto shotgun

Smallgame2100 · February 9, 2009, 02:14 AM

I would never choose a full automatic for anything.
Shoots too much and ammo isnt cheap by any means.

Not to mention with a full auto going off in the middle of the night, you'll wake up much more than just the neighbors.

exprt9 · February 9, 2009, 02:17 AM

I got to get me one of these!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

Smallgame2100 · February 9, 2009, 02:21 AM

That thing is pretty dang nice!
Huge and bulky, but won't have a bad guy/intruder think twice about running.

evan1293 · February 9, 2009, 04:37 AM

I would still take a shotgun over a submachine gun.

A subgun would be fun though.

garryc · February 9, 2009, 05:09 AM

Full auto for SD, a prosecutor would eat you alive! I had several full autos years back. Boring.

Lee Lapin · February 9, 2009, 08:02 AM

No.

If I can't get it done with a shotgun, a rattle gun wouldn't help any.

lpl

The Great Mahoo · February 9, 2009, 08:42 AM

No.

I dislike full-auto in general. It wastes ammo and usually makes for sloppy marksmanship. (Some) People start to expect the gun to do the work and don't do their part.

Tennessee Gentleman · February 9, 2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Mahoo

I dislike full-auto in general. It wastes ammo

Spot on. During my time in the military we trained our soldiers generally NOT to use full auto for that very reason. FA is difficult to use and is really only good for fire suppression and area denial neither of which is suitable or appropriate for civilian SD.

Mas Ayoob wrote a story about a guy who used one to defend himself (I think we worked for H&K) and he had some trouble for it but can't remember it fully.

freakshow10mm · February 9, 2009, 10:14 AM

The guy used an automatic HK rifle. The DA wanted to come down on him but HK lawyered him up good and he beat the charges.

I wouldn't hesitate to use an automatic rifle for home defense. Police use automatic rifles for defense, why can't citizens?

B. Lahey · February 9, 2009, 11:29 AM

I'm pretty sure that guy worked for FN-USA, and they dropped him like a rock as soon as trouble started. He was involved in a road-rage incident where some brainless weirdos chased him and shot at him. He pulled into an FN plant, got out an AC556 (full-auto mini-14) that he had in his truck for some work-related purpose, fired a warning burst into the pavement, and told them nicely to stop. One of the weirdos decided to continue the attack while screaming the tremendously stupid last words "F%&^ you and your fancy machinegun!". Mr. Ayoob and some others stood behind him in the horrendous legal adventure that followed, and he eventually came out on top.

That's what happened in the US, though. Other parts of the world are more MG-SD tolerant.

freakshow10mm · February 9, 2009, 12:00 PM

No, he worked for H&K.

grymster2007 · February 9, 2009, 12:24 PM

Nope. It would be real easy to get too much lead flying around. Can't think of a plausible situation where that would be desirable.

bigghoss · February 9, 2009, 12:31 PM

as a primary HD I'd stick to a 12gauge but under the right circumstances I would not be opposed to keeping an smg close at hand.

Firepower! · February 9, 2009, 12:33 PM

So majority here thinks automatic is not preferred, however, i cant imagine not using MP5 SD.

Evan Thomas · February 9, 2009, 12:43 PM

Oh, yeah. I'd keep the first mag filled with blanks, and let off the whole thing at the first hint of an intruder -- I've heard that this works even better than racking a shotgun to scare the pants off a BG...

Seriously, no way. What Grymster said: "It would be real easy to get too much lead flying around." That, and hard to explain to the judge.

The shotgun seems perfectly adequate.

kraigwy · February 9, 2009, 12:48 PM

Its been my experience in 40 years of firearms instruction, to the military, police and civilians. I've learned that most, including military and LEOs cant hit poop with a full auto.

I have demostrations of this several times. Example: I had 4 guns in a SF unit, fire 20 shots each at a E sil. target at 100 yards full auto. I fired 20 rounds at my target, same range, in a 1 min time period. I averages more hits then the 4 other shooters.

Another exampe: I was running a sniper school when an army MG crew wanted to use part of my range to qualify the MG Team. After words I let them pick any two of my students and their two best MGers. We fired fom 400 to 1100 meters, again in one minute, my sniper students registered more hits then the MGers.

This is just two examples. Autos have their place, its called fire superioity, needed on the battle field, but not needed in your bedroom against a home invader, or in your car during a car jacking.

You're openning youself up to all kind of problems because you have to account for all those rounds flying all over the place.

Milspec · February 9, 2009, 01:12 PM

With the exception of close ambush an individual doesn't need full auto. After about three shots you're just hosing the trees...which is why we put the three round trigger group in the M16A2. For HD I'll stick with a shotgun, handgun, and AR-15 carbine...with lasers & lights of course...

Milspec

freakshow10mm · February 9, 2009, 01:43 PM

Full automatic fire is not meant for ranges beyond 50y. Trying to put someone in their place by having them run automatic at 100y and beyond doesn't impress me one bit.

Putting sharpshooters against machine gunners is like putting a Honda up against a Ferrari. They accomplish the same thing in very different ways; apples to oranges.

onthejon55 · February 9, 2009, 01:51 PM

I would if the laws and prices were prohibative.

A good 5 round burst from a subgun is scarier than the pump of a shotgun any day.

ronto · February 9, 2009, 03:02 PM

9 pellets all at once out of a 12ga. pump should give the BG something to think about on his way to the deck.

Wyo Big Bore · February 9, 2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

FA is difficult to use and is really only good for fire suppression and area denial neither of which is suitable or appropriate for civilian SD.

Wellllllllllllllllllllll, it seems like "fire suppression and area denial" is exactly what I want. By the way, they work tremendously well for both of those.

freakintoguns · February 9, 2009, 03:47 PM

in our current state of Living a Full auto would be useless for HD imo. first of all spray and pray could technically put 30 rounds into a BG, which most DAs and judges would look at as murder. now if we had a complete meltdown of government and became a true 3rd world country with roaming bands of Gangs Mad Max Style, i feel the only adequete SD gun would bea dillon Mini gun. but since thats not likely to happen anytime soon.....

View Poll Results: Would you choose an automatic weapon for HD?
Yes	45	26.01%
No	128	73.99%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

February 9, 2009, 01:32 AM	#1
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Automatic weapon In a HD situation would chose an automatic weapon or not? Assumption: cost and law are not factors to be considered. Setting is urban but not densily populated. Please discuss your reasoning.

February 9, 2009, 01:55 AM	#2
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	I would probably stick with a regular shotgun. At close range it's tough to beat. __________________ "A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards." -George Orwell

February 9, 2009, 02:17 AM	#5
exprt9 Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 2005 Location: Buckeye State Posts: 286	I got to get me one of these! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c __________________ FREEDOM IS NOT FREE! Don't take it forgranted!

February 9, 2009, 11:29 AM	#13
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	I'm pretty sure that guy worked for FN-USA, and they dropped him like a rock as soon as trouble started. He was involved in a road-rage incident where some brainless weirdos chased him and shot at him. He pulled into an FN plant, got out an AC556 (full-auto mini-14) that he had in his truck for some work-related purpose, fired a warning burst into the pavement, and told them nicely to stop. One of the weirdos decided to continue the attack while screaming the tremendously stupid last words "F%&^ you and your fancy machinegun!". Mr. Ayoob and some others stood behind him in the horrendous legal adventure that followed, and he eventually came out on top. That's what happened in the US, though. Other parts of the world are more MG-SD tolerant. __________________ "A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards." -George Orwell

February 9, 2009, 02:12 AM	#3
vox rationis Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1,855	full auto? shotgun? why not have both friends? Saiga 12 full auto shotgun

February 9, 2009, 02:14 AM	#4
Smallgame2100 Junior member Join Date: January 8, 2009 Location: New York Posts: 164	I would never choose a full automatic for anything. Shoots too much and ammo isnt cheap by any means. Not to mention with a full auto going off in the middle of the night, you'll wake up much more than just the neighbors.

February 9, 2009, 02:21 AM	#6
Smallgame2100 Junior member Join Date: January 8, 2009 Location: New York Posts: 164	That thing is pretty dang nice! Huge and bulky, but won't have a bad guy/intruder think twice about running.

February 9, 2009, 04:37 AM	#7
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	I would still take a shotgun over a submachine gun. A subgun would be fun though.

February 9, 2009, 05:09 AM	#8
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	Full auto for SD, a prosecutor would eat you alive! I had several full autos years back. Boring.

February 9, 2009, 08:02 AM	#9
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	No. If I can't get it done with a shotgun, a rattle gun wouldn't help any. lpl

February 9, 2009, 08:42 AM	#10
The Great Mahoo Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2008 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 1,269	No. I dislike full-auto in general. It wastes ammo and usually makes for sloppy marksmanship. (Some) People start to expect the gun to do the work and don't do their part.

February 9, 2009, 10:14 AM	#12
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	The guy used an automatic HK rifle. The DA wanted to come down on him but HK lawyered him up good and he beat the charges. I wouldn't hesitate to use an automatic rifle for home defense. Police use automatic rifles for defense, why can't citizens?

February 9, 2009, 12:00 PM	#14
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	No, he worked for H&K.

February 9, 2009, 12:24 PM	#15
grymster2007 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: In the oak studded hills near Napa Posts: 2,203	Nope. It would be real easy to get too much lead flying around. Can't think of a plausible situation where that would be desirable. __________________ grym

February 9, 2009, 12:31 PM	#16
bigghoss Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2006 Location: Pueblo, Colorado Posts: 2,664	as a primary HD I'd stick to a 12gauge but under the right circumstances I would not be opposed to keeping an smg close at hand. __________________ I don't collect guns, I accumulate them.

February 9, 2009, 12:33 PM	#17
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	So majority here thinks automatic is not preferred, however, i cant imagine not using MP5 SD.

February 9, 2009, 12:43 PM	#18
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	Oh, yeah. I'd keep the first mag filled with blanks, and let off the whole thing at the first hint of an intruder -- I've heard that this works even better than racking a shotgun to scare the pants off a BG... Seriously, no way. What Grymster said: "It would be real easy to get too much lead flying around." That, and hard to explain to the judge. The shotgun seems perfectly adequate.

February 9, 2009, 12:48 PM	#19
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Its been my experience in 40 years of firearms instruction, to the military, police and civilians. I've learned that most, including military and LEOs cant hit poop with a full auto. I have demostrations of this several times. Example: I had 4 guns in a SF unit, fire 20 shots each at a E sil. target at 100 yards full auto. I fired 20 rounds at my target, same range, in a 1 min time period. I averages more hits then the 4 other shooters. Another exampe: I was running a sniper school when an army MG crew wanted to use part of my range to qualify the MG Team. After words I let them pick any two of my students and their two best MGers. We fired fom 400 to 1100 meters, again in one minute, my sniper students registered more hits then the MGers. This is just two examples. Autos have their place, its called fire superioity, needed on the battle field, but not needed in your bedroom against a home invader, or in your car during a car jacking. You're openning youself up to all kind of problems because you have to account for all those rounds flying all over the place. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

February 9, 2009, 01:12 PM	#20
Milspec Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2008 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 117	With the exception of close ambush an individual doesn't need full auto. After about three shots you're just hosing the trees...which is why we put the three round trigger group in the M16A2. For HD I'll stick with a shotgun, handgun, and AR-15 carbine...with lasers & lights of course... Milspec __________________ "...there is no second place winner in a gunfight." Colonel Bill Jordan

February 9, 2009, 01:43 PM	#21
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Full automatic fire is not meant for ranges beyond 50y. Trying to put someone in their place by having them run automatic at 100y and beyond doesn't impress me one bit. Putting sharpshooters against machine gunners is like putting a Honda up against a Ferrari. They accomplish the same thing in very different ways; apples to oranges.

February 9, 2009, 01:51 PM	#22
onthejon55 Junior member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 411	I would if the laws and prices were prohibative. A good 5 round burst from a subgun is scarier than the pump of a shotgun any day.

February 9, 2009, 03:02 PM	#23
ronto Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2007 Location: Smack Dab in the Middle of Nowhere. Posts: 505	9 pellets all at once out of a 12ga. pump should give the BG something to think about on his way to the deck. __________________ "We will do this: we will hang together, we will keep our organization, our arms, our discipline, our hatred of oppression, until one universal shout goes up from an admiring age that this Missouri Cavalry Division preferred exile to submission, death to dishonor". General Joseph O. Shelby, CSA (1830-1897) The only Confederate General who refused to surrender himself or his 1,000+ "Iron Brigade".

February 9, 2009, 03:47 PM	#25
freakintoguns Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2008 Posts: 496	in our current state of Living a Full auto would be useless for HD imo. first of all spray and pray could technically put 30 rounds into a BG, which most DAs and judges would look at as murder. now if we had a complete meltdown of government and became a true 3rd world country with roaming bands of Gangs Mad Max Style, i feel the only adequete SD gun would bea dillon Mini gun. but since thats not likely to happen anytime soon.....

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