|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
March 2, 2015, 12:49 PM | #201 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
|
What'd they do with their other weapons?
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. |
March 2, 2015, 03:13 PM | #202 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 7,097
|
Quote:
If the position is prepared well enough, even the 7.62x51 from the PLT 240s aren't going to change the situation much at all. You really need to step up to a Ma Deuce or Mk19, or call for indirect (the preferred method, always shoot other peoples bullets first). To put it plainly, like a very smart COL once told me, the American Army wins by making the enemy have to fight in two directions. The enemy can duck behind a wall, but our indirect set to air burst will then kill him. The enemy can run from behind a wall to escape th indirect, and right into our machine gun fire. Even our basic fire and maneuver tasks is set to create a base of fire to fix the enemy in place, so that the moving element can flank. A squad against a fixed position 500 yards away isn't in a position to make the enemy fight in two directions on their own. Doctrinally if the enemy was a fire team size element with one PKM we would need at least three fire teams to take that position, by moving fire teams so that we would have to make the enemy try to fight in two directions. Now would the squad feel better about having heavier bullets in that scenario? Probably. The M14s were very popular for scout platoons when operating where artillery, cca, and cas, were scarce. Jimro
__________________
Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one. |
|
March 2, 2015, 04:00 PM | #203 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
|
Well, at least they aren't expected to just sit there and trade shots. Nothing gets accomplished that way. Is there not a designated marksman somewhere there armed with a 7.62 rifle?
I might suggest reading "Bugles and a Tiger." It was written a long time ago about a British officer serving with the Indian Army. At the time the Northwest Frontier of India was where all the action was. Same enemy. It is probably a little hard on the morale of anyone sent to that part of the world to realize they've been fighting off foreign armies since Alexander the Great made a visit. It makes you wonder why people still try. It's sort of like trying to fight the Apaches.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. |
March 2, 2015, 04:22 PM | #204 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,863
|
Quote:
My first tour we didn't have M-21s down to the squad level all the time.
__________________
NRA Life Member Read my blog! "The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!" |
|
March 2, 2015, 05:01 PM | #205 | ||
Member
Join Date: February 13, 2015
Posts: 86
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
March 2, 2015, 05:19 PM | #206 | |
Member
Join Date: February 13, 2015
Posts: 86
|
Quote:
The R5 was by far the best carry weapon in the bush. It is 4 inches shorter and with a folding stock is much the same as carrying a full size colt45acp(pretty easy), much easier to walk through dense bush with. I would imagine this would come in handy in urban conflict. The 5.56 is a good compromise between reliability and accuracy. If its clean its great, can take some punishment and keep going... But its no ak with reliability. It is also becoming dated. I prefer it to an at though and plan to have one by years end. The bull pup is innovative and I'm sure in another 20 years it will be the standard in most militaries. That being said, I still don't like the idea of the chamber being so close to my head, not to mention that lefties need a complety different gun and could swap in combat. |
|
March 2, 2015, 05:27 PM | #207 |
Member
Join Date: February 13, 2015
Posts: 86
|
Agreed, there are composite launchers available now that can literally clip onto weapons and have a round pre installed. They are no matter cumbersome than teargas grenades and leave the rifle free from "bulkiness" as they are one time use and disposable after. They also deform enough that they cannot be reloaded after use making them "safe" war carrion.
|
March 2, 2015, 05:36 PM | #208 | |
Member
Join Date: February 13, 2015
Posts: 86
|
Quote:
|
|
March 3, 2015, 12:35 AM | #209 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 5,292
|
Quote:
|
|
March 3, 2015, 07:13 AM | #210 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
|
I think he meant the SAW itself cut the need for an extra ammo man (whether or not it does).
I think some good things here are starting to come out. I always like to see people get a better understanding of the big picture with small arms and the military. I also like to dispel notions that the enemy is superior in any way to our own military, whoever the enemy might be. Sometimes, we have the idea that they are faster, stronger, shoot further with older weapons and can overcome anything. That has always been a problem in warfare, which is basically the psychological side of the fight. Some of it is propaganda. Some of it is natural fear. The Germans invaded Poland and France in 1939 and 1940 with what was basically a horse-drawn army for the most part and lost a high proportion of their tank strength in the process. But their propaganda made up for it. Besides, they did win those two campaigns. If the enemy in Afghanistan can outshoot American (or French or German) soldiers, that is a problem. If we merely believe they can whether they do or not, it's still a problem. The fact that Afghan men have been fighting outsiders for generations practically is a serious issue. We only go there for from six months to a year and a half at a time. Given that, issues with weapons tend to melt away. But progress with weapons is still possible, although the doctrinal element is still there. That means how we use what we have and how the ground element is organized to do it. That sort of thing tends to be invisible to a casual observer more interested in just guns. But it's the kind of thing they think about back in Ft. Benning and Quantico (and Warminster and Paris). There are clear trends among infantry weapons. Squad automatics are out. Light machine guns (belt-fed) are in. The basic infantry rifle is now shorter (if not lighter) and typically equipped with an optical sight. Bullpups (that's where this whole thing started) have become common, though they only seem to offer only a shorter overall length for a longer barrel length, although both of those are good things. They may not have triggers that a precision shooter (that doesn't include me) would love, given that the trigger would have a longish linkage. The cartridges are unlikely to change anytime soon, although the Chinese didn't know that. It's possible a new cartridge could be introduced for some uses if there was any real point to it. Having different cartridges in the system is probably not such a serious issue. In the 1960s, for instance, we had troops using three different rifles that used three different cartridges. Possibilities abound.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. |
March 3, 2015, 07:50 AM | #211 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,649
|
Quote:
__________________
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe |
|
March 3, 2015, 08:05 AM | #212 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
|
They're free to use whatever they wish, as is anyone else, as far as I'm concerned. That's how trends start, too.
Do you realize the M249 has been in use for 30 years already? Long time but not a record. I don't know if things last any longer than they used to but changes are made less frequently than formerly. The M1 rifle was standard for barely 30 years but not as long as the M1903. The Single Action Army revolver was standard for only about 20 years. I say "standard," not how long something was actually in use. M1903s are still used by honor guards in Washington. Mauser bolt actions are used by honor guards in Germany. Also, "standard" does not imply that everyone gets it anytime soon. I got out of the army in 1968 and had never seen an M16.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. Last edited by BlueTrain; March 3, 2015 at 09:07 AM. |
March 3, 2015, 02:14 PM | #213 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
|
I notice that one of the solid complaints abut bullpups is the trigger. I notice geiselle make a Tavor trigger. Has anyone tried it? I find it hard to believe the triggers are really incapable of matching a stock M4 trigger. Yes it is money, but in the scheme of things it is really small compared to some other DOD costs.
There are two ways to measure this: Dollars and lives. Politicians hold the purse strings. I think the electorate is likely very open to an argument that infantry is being neglected in favor of flashy technology. I think a comprehensive campaign to upgrade the capabilities of the infantryman with the overriding intent to increase survivability would be a surprisingly easy sale. For starters, I think it has become strikingly obvious to anyone who has their eyes open that the tail end cost of a casualty often far exceeds many of the possible upgrades discovered. Is a new rifle the on the top of the list of things in that campaign? Probably not, but there is more to it than lighter stronger body armor. A new rifle with a $350 trigger group might fit somewhere. I also believe increasing the resilience of the infantryman greatly increases effectiveness of the entire package. Throughout history the stories of enemies that won't die have had an astounding effect on many conflicts. Can a 200,000 person Army that is better equipped function better than a larger one as is now equipped? If a soldier believes they have the full support and the best possible equipment which increases survivability available to their nation are they able to handle longer deployments? How many problems are caused when units rotate and all the work with locals is erased? |
March 3, 2015, 04:10 PM | #214 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,649
|
I can deal with the crap trigger on a bullpup, I can't deal with spent casings being ejected in my face, I shoot left handed. For both the AUG and TAVOR you have to have a special left handed bolt which will inevitably be lost by the armorer or never be ordered by the unit in the first place.
I also hate how magazine changes happen out of your peripheral vision (if you're keeping your eyes down range).
__________________
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe |
March 6, 2015, 08:59 AM | #215 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 5, 2000
Location: Puget Sound, USA
Posts: 2,215
|
Tucker, the Tavor can be fired from either shoulder, using the right-hand ejection port.
There are some videos on this glorious internet showing guys firing left handed, with the cases flying by their noses without making contact. Frenchmen now, they might have a case-in-the-nose problem Forgive me for the above remark, but I am in France at this moment and I can say that the Gallic nose does exist. As in Charles de Gaulle nose. Bart Noir Edited to refer to Charles de Gaulle, not his much less famous cousin George.
__________________
Be of good cheer and mindful of your gun muzzle! Last edited by Bart Noir; March 7, 2015 at 04:28 PM. |
March 6, 2015, 09:30 AM | #216 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
|
Quote:
Bullpups. Never shot one, but I like them. Have seen a M.A.C. review of the Tavor, I was very impressed by the thought that has gone into it. Too expensive to re-equip an army the size of the US's but I bet anyone armed with one would not be too miffed.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
|
|
March 6, 2015, 12:04 PM | #217 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
|
How did left-handers manage with bolt-actions?
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. |
March 7, 2015, 11:34 PM | #218 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 5, 2010
Posts: 665
|
Was at a convention featuring the latest experimental drones and charging systems. These things will fly themselves up to a bridge or lightpole equipped with wireless charging tech. and automatically recharge thereby staying in the field almost indefinitely. If they arm these little things and mass produce them, the rifle issue suddenly takes a back seat. You remember the hitchcock movie about birds right? The only reason you feel safe is that the birds arent really intelligent and arent out to get you. Well gentlemen there is a new breed of bird out there.
|
March 8, 2015, 11:00 AM | #219 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,649
|
Quote:
IMHO I think we've fairly well beaten the dead horse on this subject. Just to reiterate what rifle myself, as a Marine who carried an M16A4 in Afghanistan, would like to see my armorer hand to me through the window one day before my next deployment- 8.5 lb rifle loaded with optics (preferably ACOG with piggybacked RDS) Folding stock Piston driven Charging handle mounted forward and ambidextrous Ambidextrous magazine release and bolt catch/release Chambered in a 6.5mm or 6.8mm cartridge throwing a 95-110gr pill at 26-2700fps (6.5 MPC uses the 5.56 case and is capable of this) Issued with GOOD magazines and my fellow Marines taught how to spot a bad one
__________________
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe |
|
March 8, 2015, 02:17 PM | #220 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
|
Quote:
When distilled down to the basic process some such jobs entail analysing patterns, be it patterns of symptoms or patterns of judgment. Some programs are already able to duplicate real world legal case verdicts simply by entering the legal considerations submitted in the case. Based on that are you still sure that the human brain will be indispensable in the battlefield? Our analytical abilities but faster, more extensive and without emotions.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
|
|
March 8, 2015, 02:27 PM | #221 | |
Junior member
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
|
Quote:
As if that would be good thing. Welcome to Skynet. |
|
March 8, 2015, 04:05 PM | #222 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
|
Quote:
Humans are very bad at imposing limits and thresholds on themselves when there is nothing else to stop them going further. Science is like that. The know-how in itself is not a problem. The issues arise when big business start to take an interest. That's when it tends to spiral!! I can dig up the links to the radio broadcast and PM them if you are interested. (so as not to send the thread off on a tangent)
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
|
|
March 8, 2015, 08:22 PM | #223 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 5, 2014
Location: SW WA State
Posts: 490
|
Bullpups For Southpaws?
Never happen. The receiver is too close to the face, for one, in case of a blow-up...
and the ejection port on the right side of the gun just ain't right for lefties. I'm a righty and have always entertained a want for a bullpup Rem 870 pump, and there once was a prototype for a retrofit kit 20+ years ago for it, but it never got past that into production. Can't remember the manufacturer. Then there was always the High Standard Model 10: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Standard_Model_10 and you saw how long that lasted (both renditions). Good idea. Bad application, IMO
__________________
To be governed – is to be watched, inspected, directed, indoctrinated, numbered, estimated, regulated, commanded, controlled, law-driven, preached at, spied upon, censured, checked, valued, enrolled – by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so. - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon |
March 9, 2015, 01:20 AM | #224 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,649
|
Quote:
That said. This thread is about rifles, not the plot of the Terminator series of movies. I've said what I would like to see in the next standard issue rifle as a combat veteran. What say you, TFL?
__________________
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe |
|
March 9, 2015, 01:35 AM | #225 | |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
|
Quote:
Current production Rem 870 and Moss 500 bull pup retrofit kits are commercially available. That was just from a quick google search. I believe there are quite a few other companies doing it. Newer designs are also ambidextrous(with a few parts changes). Other large militaries have already switched successfully without major technical issues. I would be surprised if lawyers go away, but the others may. Similarly, I would be surprised if AI is pulling the trigger against human targets anytime soon. At least on a large scale with any major government admitting it. Destroying other automated systems or even clearly military vehicles such as tank or military aircraft possibly. A human controlling a turret on a UAV, probably. Just imagine the potential of a "UAV sniper" hovering/gliding 200-400 meters above an engagement supporting ground troops. Being able to quickly change angles by repositioning at a rapid speed, safely draw fire, provide detailed intelligence, engage targets with precision aimed fire. AT what point does every soldier/fireteam on the ground have a guardian angel floating over head with a triggerman many miles away in a secure area? OPFOR opens up from 600 meter with an RPK, soldiers run for cover, drones with rifles close with enemy and attack from high behind within a minute or two with the sun directly behind the drones. Would you sacrifice a fireteam for such capability? A Humvee/APC that is designated to refuel/recharge them one at a time instead of carry a fireteam? The only reason I can think it hasn't happened yet is humans in the field are still cheaper. Using the UAVs to drop big bombs is great, but where they will really shine is once they are developed to the point where they replace the A-10 with even higher precision capabilities. The first attempt at an around the world manned solar only flight started this weekend. It really won't be long until we have solar UAVs that can hover, stay in the air for a very very long time, and support 100 pound payload. |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|