Reloading blues...

[azredhawk44]

I just cranked out about 500 rounds today.

Nearly 400 rounds of .38 special on the SDB, and 100 rounds of .308 (including case trimming/prep) on the Rockchucker.

I feel like I didn't even make a dent in the ammo I need, and I blew probably 3 hours out in the shop tonight.

I sized/deprimed the .308 then tumbled it to get the lube off. While it tumbled, I loaded up all the .38 special. Then I spent about an hour on the hand lathe, trimming to 2.005 then chamfering the mouth inside and out. Finally, on to priming, powder, and bullet seating.

I need ~150 rounds next weekend for a pair of 600 yard High Power prone matches... one Sat, and one Sun. Still don't have the ammo.

I have probably 7-10k of unprocessed brass out in my garage that I need to get to, taking up space and giving me nasty looks. About 2k rifle, maybe even 3k, and 5-10k handgun.

I need a faster way to process brass. And in particular, to trim/chamfer it.

Giraud, Gracie, Dillon, Hornady. They all make various tools to get the job done with less time and tedium on the user's part. I'd like to spend less than 10 minutes on brass prep for a 100 round batch. Not the hour to 90 minutes it currently takes.

I don't want to go to a progressive press, though. Right now, my bottleneck is definitely the case prep.

Eventually, I could see augmenting my setup with a progressive for rifle, for use in-between case trimming sessions. But right now, I'd be happy with my production rate if the case trimming step didn't exist or was 1/10th of what it is now.

Sell me on the best solution, folks. I need something that lets me work on .223 and .308 at a minimum, but I also have .30-30, 7.62x54R and .450 marlin right now, and toying strongly with either .30-06 and/or .30 carbine if the right rifle presents itself for sale.

Anticipated volume is about 200 rounds of rifle ammo a month, but ideally processed in batches of 500 to 1000 and loaded up in bulk for quarterly or semiannual production/consumption.

Purpose of the ammo is ideally to get 1MOA consistent groups (a fella can dream, right?) in High Power matches. For now, I'll be happy with my current 3MOA from prone and increased production speed, so I can practice more and get to 2MOA. Part of me dreads shooting, because then I have to reload!

[Clark]

I tried to dance to it, but it did not have a good beat.

How about this:
I been reload'n babe, cause I want to git me a small group
I been reload'n babe, cause I want to git me a small group
Hey I ain't happy, because two inches is poop

[dmazur]

Your story sounds like what drove Mr. Giraud to develop his powered trimmer, as well as other shooting accessories. I think this is what a lot of us in management call a "mission statement" -

Welcome to the Giraud Tool Company website. My goal is to provide Highpower shooters the finest quality accessories available. After starting Highpower shooting in 1999, I became aware of the need to design and develop products that exceed the expectations of the shooting community. I found myself spending more time and effort getting ready to participate than actually enjoying the sport. My products are designed to give the shooter an advantage, faster setup and faster preparation with no sacrifice in quality or function.

I just got one of his powered trimmers, with quick-change cutters for .30-06 and .243. I believe the design (which indexes on the case shoulder) will work with almost any bottleneck rifle cartridge. Not the .30 Carbine or .450 Marlin, but everything else in your list.

"Overdesigned" is sometimes not considered a complimentary term, but I happen to think it is. Of course, I'm an engineer.

Initial use of this tool was very encouraging. The amount of brass you can trim is just amazing. Very little hand motion involved. There's a youtube video floating around, contributed by a user. -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGYLmHvKVd0

The important thing to note is that this trimmer handles length and inside/outside chamfering simultaneously. That's why it is so fast.

If you trim more than one caliber extensively, get a quick-change cutter head for each. This eliminates the tedious trial and error procedure for resetting the cutters if you only have one head. The case holders are also caliber-specific, and are easy to change.

I don't want to go to a progressive press, though.

Well, you might want to consider the Dillon 550b. This is a good complement to a single stage press used for resizing. You just leave station one empty (no die) and insert prepped brass into station one. If you prefer hand priming, just ignore the Dillon primer function. The Dillon primer mechanism is one of the best, IMO, and has good "feel". A lot of folks use it. At any rate, you get high production for all remaining operations. (Powder charge, bullet seating, and an optional crimp die.)

I reload as you describe. Infrequently and in large volume. Not everyone makes reloading a "little bit every evening" activity.

[briandg]

Hire a trusted teenager to do the drudge work. I'd allow my niece or nephew into my home for a day or two and pay $10 an hour to have him/her process all of that brass. Size, expand, tumble, trim, chamfer, so forth, what parts of that are too complicated for a teenager to do if the equipment is already set up properly, and proper supervision is given, while you work on some other aspect?

You've already said it isn't worth your time, pretty much, but is it worth money?

You might even be able to let them run your progressive press for you. I don't know.

[azredhawk44]

OK, I think I've made the decision that I'm gonna buy a powered case trimmer.

Giraud is $425 for 1 caliber. $30 for an additional caliber. Motor spins at 3000rpm, 1/8 horsepower. Carbide blade.

Gracey is $280 for 1 caliber. $28 for an additional caliber. Motor spins at 1500rpm, 1/16 horsepower. Carbon steel, "oil hardened" blade.

Both of these deburr/chamfer in one step, rather than leaving an unprocessed case mouth like the Dillon and Hornady solutions. And the hornady one apparently has mickey-mouse plastic gears.

I'm able to trim cases by hand at probably 200-250rpm as I crank on my hand lathe, so I bet 1500rpm is still nice and smooth.

Anyone here want to tell me that the Gracey is a mistake and they wish they just bought the Giraud right off the bat? Or, are there 100% happy Gracey folks on this board that process about 2000 rounds a year with it and have done so for several years, still getting nice and sharp, clean trims with the blade?

It is only $12 to order a replacement carbon steel blade from Gracey, or I can get a Giraud carbide blade from Giraud and install it in the Gracey for $30.

I'd prefer to save the $150 difference between the two, if possible.

[azredhawk44]

You've already said it isn't worth your time, pretty much, but is it worth money?

The reason I'm getting fed up with it is because my hands are cramping. It is weird: I'm 32 years old and it's like carpal tunnel or arthritis or something.

I wouldn't wish that same feeling on anyone else, either.

[cwok]

When you are buying your first press -- it can make a lot of sense to buy an economy model because it might turn out -- three years down the road,-- that it has become a paper weight.

If you are buying a tool that allows you to spend more time on the fun part of a hobby that you've devoted several years to, and can hope to remain involved with for ......
another half-century
.....
I, personally, would almost certinaly opt for the higher quality tool.
.

[dmazur]

I found this link, which summarizes the Giraud vs Gracey question better than I could -

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....9&postcount=27

I never owned a Gracey, so I can only find it amusing that there are conversion kits to improve it...

+1 to the idea of getting high quality tools. The times I've tried to economize have generally taught me, eventually, that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Don't throw away the hand trimmer! If you have any straight-walled cartridges, you'll still need something other than the Giraud to handle them.

[Sevens]

I can see we approach reloading from two entirely different angles.

Nothing wrong with that (I mean it!) but this is hobby for me and I thoroughly enjoy doing it.

Sounds like work for you, a means to an end, something that has to be done in order to be able to shoot High Power. You also sum up the opening post with thoughts that even shooting is a bummer, because then you have to reload.

That's a bummer. Maybe you should consider a break from all of it, and see if you can find the hobby and enjoyment from it by going a different route?

[farmerboy]

Right on Sevens

[oldreloader]

Well said Sevens. There is reloading and there is ammo manufacturing. There is nothing wrong with either. I reload and enjoy it as a hobby in itself. I do everything on a Rockchucker and a Mec 600. I clean primer pockets and trim all rifle and pistol cases because I want and enjoy it BUT I'm not high volume either. I am not sure I would enjoy the ammo manufacture.

[dmazur]

Only the OP can explain why he wants higher production.

For myself, I do enjoy reloading. I like working up loads for accuracy, I like the precise setups that are part of it, I like keeping accurate records.

I also like shooting. And when I get an opportunity, I usually go through 250-500 rds of rifle, and perhaps another 500 rds of pistol.

The problem is, I work away from home most of the week, and weekend time is precious. I really envy guys who have every evening for "workshop time". So I have to cram everything into those two days. Every once in a while, I can spend a few hours reloading. So I have to make those hours count...

Like the shooting sports in general, there can be many ways to approach reloading. I don't think I would think poorly of the OP because reloading, for him, may be a means to an end rather than an end in itself.

[Slamfire]

I wrote this a couple of years ago:

As a competitive highpower shooter I shoot lots of .223, and 308 in highpower competition. Used to shoot a lot of 30-06, but not as much now. It used to take weeks to trim a seasons brass with a Lee or a Redding lathe trimmer. It costs dollars for the convenience of trimming my 88 rounds of match brass in under five minutes, start to finish, but I am willing to pay for it.

I have three powered trimmers that will trim, deburr, and bevel the case mouth in one operation: The RCBS case trimmer, the Gracey, and now the Giraud trimmer. The speed champ, until I received the Giraud trimmer, was of course the Gracey.

I purchased a Gracey direct from Col Gracey when he sold trimmers at Camp Perry. He was a interesting and enthusiastic salesman. I still have mine.

Having now trimmed a thousands of cases in each of these trimmers, I feel that I can make a fair comparison/assessment of the Giraud trimmer.

It quieter than my Gracey trimmer, but I do not know if it is intrinsic to the design, or whether I just have a loud Gracey and a quiet Giraud. This means I can trim and listen to either the radio or TV without the rest of the neighborhood having to "enjoy" the same programs.

It is faster than the Gracey, where the cutter spins at the same speed as the motor. The Giraud spins its cutter through a notched belt and toothed gear system, the gear ratio adjusted so the Giraud cutter rotates faster than the motor.

Mr. Giraud supplies the cutter with a carbide blade of his own design. I really do not know anyone who has good luck with the Gracey "tool steel" (probably high carbon steel) blades except Mr. Gracey. I have unsuccessfully gone through two sets of Gracey blades, trying to find a set that will take and hold an edge. The two blades of the Gracey trimmer are difficult to adjust in tandem, the once piece Bob Jones and Giraud blades are faster to adjust.

A side comment, I also have the Bob Jones carbide cutter blade. The Giraud Blade provides an internal case mouth chamfer of 15 degrees and an external case mouth of 45 degrees (per Doug Giraud). The Bob Jones does not cut as steep an internal slope as does the Giraud, and I find that I prefer the steeper slope. The reason is that it creates less resistance when seating a bullet. This is an advantage to me, because I dump powder and seat the bullet on a Dillion 550B. Every so often a bullet will tip and jam into the bottom edge of my seating die. If I can detect this in time I can stop and can clear the condition before the case gets ruined. However, when the bullet requires significant effort to seat, it is hard to differentiate on the seating stroke between a jammed bullet and normal seating. The end result is usually a crumpled case neck.

I like having an "On-Off" Switch. The Girard comes with an On-Off switch. My Gracey trimmer did not come with one. I went to home depot, bought a cheap switch, cut the wires, drilled the Gracey base, and now I can turn the thing off without pulling the cord from the wall socket.

The most important thing I found that made the Giraud a speed champ was that you can cut in a horizontal position, like the Gracey, or a vertical (upright) position. With the Giraud in a vertical position, I can put the machine upright in front of me, and trim cases with both hands. In the horizontal position I can feed cases to one hand, but only one hand can hold the case in the trimmer. This little difference significantly reduces hand fatigue and increases the effective trim rate. And one other thing, with the machine pointing up, the brass chips fall down out of the shell holder. These machines headspace on the case shoulder, so with the Gracey in a horizontal position, I am constantly checking trim length, and wiping out the inside of the shell holder because inevitably, a brass chip will fall into the shell holder and change the trim length.

My Giraud trimmer has a quick shell holder change feature. I can change out the shell holder from from 30-06 to 308 without having to readjust for depth. The Gracey shell holder must be readjusted for depth when changing calibers. Mr. Giraud has made an improvement to his trimmer, after I purchased mine, but it allows quick change of the cutter head. Currently I can only trim cartridges of the same caliber without adjusting the cutter head. This adjustment is perhaps the most time consuming as I try to get an chamfer angle I like and still deburr the outside of the brass. This is also true of the Gracey. However Mr. Giraud has made a removable cutter head which is a better idea and would allow a very quick change over from .223 to .308 for example. The removable cutter head option is a great idea, but it is not cheap.

Gracey's tool was good in its day, but the Giraud is an improvement.

I still use the RCBS trimmer for low volume case trimming; lets say 100 cases of an odd ball caliber. However when I am trimming 5 gallon bullet loads of 308/30-06/.22 brass, that is when I use the Gracey and Giraud trimmers.

[oldreloader]

I didn't mean my previous post to be critical of azredhawk44.Please accept my apology if it seemed that way. Reloading in itself is a hobby for me.It's enjoyable,relaxing and seems to ease my tensions as soon as I head to the bench. I realize it isn't that way for everyone. There is nothing wrong with high turnout, I just enjoy what I do.

[farmerboy]

To each their own, We all do the things we do for various reasons, You do yours your way, for your reasons and I do mine for my reasons. It's all reloading to us for what ever reason we gotton into it. It is the bond that brings us together yet in other ways we may be seperated in certain areas. I respect yours and hope to get respect for mine.

[Sevens]

Yep, I said as much in my post. I'm not condemning him for not getting the hobby enjoyment out of it, just that I don't envy his position.

[azredhawk44]

There's times that I enjoy reloading, and times that I don't.

However, I always enjoy shooting.

I work one main job, a second side-job that pays for my shooting toys, and I have a girlfriend that needs attending to, a house that I own and must maintain, and a dog I have to keep somewhat civil with attention and training. I also spend at least 1 weekend a month teaching Appleseed classes.

My leisure time is maxed out, and finding time to trim up a hundred cases for the next match is challenging when it takes almost a minute per case.

I have greatly appreciated the change from single-stage to progressive via the SDB, for straight-walled pistol ammunition. I'm not certain I have the necessary confidence in the priming system and consistent seating depth to invest in a 550 or 650, so I'm going to stick with my single stage for now.

It blows my mind, however, how ANYONE could actually enjoy the act of brass preparation.

Heck, I even chucked up my deburring tool into my drill press and did inside/outside chamfering that way this morning for some .308 brass. Still took forever, since I had to crank on the case lathe before-hand, then do the inside, then un-chuck and remount, then do the outside of the cases.

Thank you all for the insight into the differences between the Gracey and Giraud systems. It sounds like the Giraud is worth the extra money in its position-independent design and it is a dramatic improvement over the Gracey. I will probably place an order for one on Monday.

[Sevens]

I think a few of us could pitch in and help with the dog and the girlfriend... but when it comes to trimming brass and doing primer pockets, you will be on your own!

[snuffy]

Why spend all that $$$$ for those complicated re-inventions of the wheel? For a few dollars you can get the lee system for each caliber you load, then the addition of a cordless drill, you have a powered case trimmer. Then, pick up the inside/outside chamfer tool, while the case is still spinning, you're done trimming. If you want to uniform the flash hole , that tool can also be used at that time. If the case has lube on it, holding a paper towel against the case removes it. Try that in a gracy or giraud.

[alloy]

Biggest advancement in my own process would be to muck it up and work a batch of about 2K. Trim to the minimum, and try to get 2-3 firings before trimming again. My batching came from starting with limited brass and evolved into a full fledged cluster-fracas. Now I have a boatload of brass...I don't know why I am still doing it the same newbie way. Lots that are too small and have to be headstamp segregated, annealled, tumbled to keep them seperate.
If I could start over(never too late), 3k processed from Scharch, prime it all, shoot it twice or thrice, and get rebarrelled some frozen future January/February while I trim and/or anneal the whole shebang for another go around. If bored, and do a few hundred here and there before the big enchilada comes due.

I feel your pain. I have two lathes and my trimmer is powered and yet....
Anyone tried one of these?
http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-...e-Prep-Center/

[wncchester]

I have neither need for nor desire for high volumes of reloads. I do like the Lee case trimmer tools for my "high volume" work and would use the Possum Hollow trimmer if I needed more. (Some 90% of my needs are taken care of quite nicely by an old Lyman Universal trimmer.)

Case work drops off a LOT after the first time, at least for my needs.

[TXGunNut]

What Sevens said! Take a break! I was a long-time PPC competitor and if I ever load another .38 wadcutter it will be too soon. Cover hasn't been off my Dillon in years. Before I quit altogether (and I would never recommend it for you at any time) I took a few breaks. Shoot some silhouette matches with your plinker .22, tinker with any BP guns that haven't been to the range in awhile.
Maybe a new toy to play with until you feel like prepping brass again. OTOH a new, superfast case trimmer is a good idea. Not wild about indexing on the case shoulder but I've never used them, must work OK. I just bought my first Zip Trim and like it but it's only a little better than my old method of a cordless drill driving a Lee trimmer and deburring tools. I hate case trimming but new rifle likes stretching them so here we go!

[CrustyFN]

Save the $450 on the fancy trimmer and buy an RCBS X-die. You only have to trim once and shouldn't have to trim again for the life of the brass.

[azredhawk44]

Save the $450 on the fancy trimmer and buy an RCBS X-die. You only have to trim once and shouldn't have to trim again for the life of the brass.

Got the X-die for my .308. I've had it for awhile. Still using a basic Lee die for my .223 reloading. Haven't reloaded enough .223 yet to see the case stretching that happens with that caliber, though I have seen it in .308.

What I don't have... is 500+ pieces of uniform trimmed and equal volume .308 brass so I can go to 6-8 matches with the same load and use the same sight-in and data.

I've got 300 pieces of Federal, and 100 pieces of Remington, and 200 pieces of Winchester, and 300 pieces of Prvi Partisan, and 200 pieces of IMI, and 120 pieces of GGG, 150 pieces of MagTech, 50 pieces of Nosler.... and so on.

I have rooted around and found another 250-300 pieces of Federal brass that will give me a combined total of 500+ of one particular headstamp. They need trimming.

Otherwise... I need to order 500+ pieces of brass in the same headstamp. And trim them.

In .223, I have about 1000 pieces of Lake City mixed year headstamp that I have already trimmed by hand on the manual lathe. I've even swaged the primer pockets with my Dillon pocket swager. Now I have to chamfer the mouth on all of them. Then there's some WCC, RORG and other odd 5.56 NATO headstamps in there too, for about 500+ count. Then there's the Prvi Partisan (200ct) and Fiocchi (200ct) to load up, also.

I'll admit my current work load for case trimming is high, and it's because I have been shooting a LOT for the last 18 months to 2 years without doing much corresponding reloading. But, that's because I dislike the process of case prep so much.

Why spend all that $$$$ for those complicated re-inventions of the wheel? For a few dollars you can get the lee system for each caliber you load, then the addition of a cordless drill, you have a powered case trimmer.

I've got the Lee system. It sucks major-league big time. The brass gets loose in the case holder and gets off center easily, then you end up torquing the neck of the case.

I even dusted it off and tried it out again this weekend, and I got fed up after about 20 cases, and went back to the hand lathe.

The part that sucks on the Lee system is the shell holder that holds the case against the drill. It needs some knobs or sticks or something to stick out of it and give the user more leverage as they clamp down on the case. It's the changing of the brass in the system that kills me.... moving from one case to the next. I can do that much easier in the hand lathe than the Lee system, because it has a big knob for leverage, and is easier to align the case with the cutter.

If I only did 20 rounds of .30-30 a year, then the Lee system would be just fine.