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January 8, 2010, 06:10 PM | #126 | |
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January 8, 2010, 07:35 PM | #127 | |
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BlueTrain, My two carry guns are a Glock 26 with NY-1/3.5 lb connector (8 lb trigger pull) and a Smith&Wesson 642 .38 spl. with Secret Service grips. Both fully loaded. I carry the 26 ususally in a FIST IWB kyndex holster and the 642 in a Gould&Gouldrich IWB codura (must be 15 years old that holster!) I consider the holsters the 'saftey' as both holsters cover the trigger guards. Take them out of the holster, you take the 'safety' off! Put them back into the holster, the 'safety' is on! The other safety is the trigger finger! Daily? Why I just scoop them up in their holsters, clip the 640 on in the appenix position, climb into the car for work, putting the 26 in the console. Since I don't pack at work, I leave the 640 in the console with the 26. When I get home the 26 is put up in it's place (still loaded) and the 640 rides on me unless I'm in the bath! And when bedtime it sleeps with the 26. Our kids are grown, no grandkids yet. So I can keep them nearby, again, fully loaded. If I'm going to Taekwondo or Krav Maga, the guns (both of them, and yes, fully loaded) ride in the gym bag, stil in their holsters. I also have a practice Glock 26 and Smith 640. Yes practice. I shoot them alot at the ranges and don't clean them much! I have a gunsafe for them and others so most of my hardware is picked up. The only chamber empty gun outside the safe is the M1 Carbine. And that's no biggie as if I need to go get the long gun, I'll have time to rack that baby.
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“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides |
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January 8, 2010, 08:48 PM | #128 | ||||||
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Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed. |
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January 9, 2010, 07:24 AM | #129 |
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Good responses here. But I'm not fully convinced that chamber empty carry (with qualifications) is such a great disadvantage. Someone admitted that they didn't leave their carbine cocked and locked. I'm not sure that is assuming away the problem or not but I appreciate the frankness. I also note one or two who admitted carrying a five shot revolver. Is a five shot revolver a disadvantage when you could be carrying something with double the firepower?
Would anyone admit that carrying a Colt Government Model with seven shots is a disadvantage when you could be carrying something with twice that number? I will admit that is a tough question to answer honestly. Several mention you will act (or react) the way you have trained. I sort of agree (but see my previous posts), so, in theory, if you plan to carry something chamber empty, which absolutely does not render the pistol useless, you certainly have to practice with that in mind. All of this applies only to automatic pistols, by the way. I agree that expecting to get your revolver loaded at the moment you need it is asking for it. But I have a cousin in West Virginia who states that his method for his "bedroom gun" is to keep the magazine out but full, and when the pistol is called for, to insert the magazine and chamber a round. That's one step too many. He had a Glock .40 caliber and by the way, I think Glocks are perfect for chamber empty carry, if that's your thing. No safety levers to fiddle with and a slide that is especially easy to grasp. And it comes in just about any caliber you could want. There is one disadvantage to chamber empty carry that I'm surprised no one had mentioned, that I remember, and ironically, it is exactly like one of the disadvantages of chamber loaded carry, in a way. Some have mentioned that you need to double check to see that the chamber is in fact loaded if that's the way you habitually carry the pistol. True enough but you also have to keep checking to see that the chamber is in fact empty if that's the way it's going to be carried. We're trying to avoid accidents here. Finally, someone mentions that using different carry methods are inconsistent procedures for different states of readiness. I can't believe that people can consistently be in the same state of readiness all the time, even policemen. But I'm beginning to wonder if the contributors here might be better trained than the average policeman. There will always be a tapering off in both your training and your readiness. You can't be perfect all the time. That's not an argument against chamber loaded carry, which I have never argued against here. But you should be a little more flexible to be able to deal with situations that don't meet your expectations of what they will be. I just have to believe that most of you are capable of more than you think. After all, what if you only had one hand to use in a self defense situation--and it wasn't your gun hand?
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January 9, 2010, 09:18 AM | #130 | ||
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While I know a few cops who will pay for extra training out of pocket, they, like your average CCW holder, are few and far between. In the last 3 years I've averaged about $1000 a year on shooting courses or H2H classes just because I want to be better than average. How many here do that? Quote:
I carry AIWB, so my gun is accessible by either hand, and I have access to a knife with either hand. |
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January 9, 2010, 12:59 PM | #131 | ||||
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Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed. |
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January 9, 2010, 03:08 PM | #132 |
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Summary:
1. I feel I'm unsafe with a chambered gun in most situations 2. I feel I'm safe with a chambered gun in most situations. and 1. I think I can do gyrations in all likely incidents to chamber and get into action 2. I think there are reasonable scenarios were chambering would be difficult or slow me down to put me at risk. and If I have one of these opinions, if you don't - you are wrong. Is that it?
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NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; January 10, 2010 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Stevie needed an IT |
January 9, 2010, 11:07 PM | #133 | |
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Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed. |
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January 9, 2010, 11:16 PM | #134 | |||||
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Bluetrain,
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True some people here are pretty decent combat shots and well trained, but some are not. But it's the experience of well trained people you look for, not the 'average'. For it's the well trained and experience people who know how much effort and training it takes to be competent, and not those who are mediocre.
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January 10, 2010, 07:12 AM | #135 |
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When I read some one is basically frightened of a Pistol (do not feel experienced enough to carry loaded chamber) the chance of them being able to shoot some one is slim to none, carry a walking stick.
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January 10, 2010, 12:35 PM | #136 |
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In all seriousness, now, there's a good chance that before I'll need to draw my weapon, I'll need to:
Larry
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January 10, 2010, 01:42 PM | #137 |
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Thoughts from Israel
I am not sure how Israeli Shooters got started on what you call the 'Israeli' method. But I think it was the conventional wisdom many years ago when the country was awash with lots of old WWII handguns. Things have changed in terms of the weapons we have, but the mentality and training has stayed.
Interestingly we don't have many robbery's and bad guy type encounters here. Our streets are pretty safe, (This does not mean we don't have these problems but the probability is so low that it just would not be serious reason to carry a handgun.) Threats we do have to face: Getting shot at by terrorists while driving by automatic rifle fire. Terrorists going amok with firearms on the street and in institutions. Terrorist with explosive belts that need to be taken out before they detonate. Terrorist using cars, buses, tractors etc. as deadly weapons. Terrorists taking over buses, trains or operating in transportation terminals. The only advantage a handgun has against an automatic assault rifle is speed in getting into action. Hopefully, you can take them out before they get you. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that loaded chamber carry is still the way to go. Every second counts. But I always carried concealed. However, lots of people carry pistols out in the open. In this case, I think the possibility of your handgun being snatched etc. is much greater. So perhaps empty chamber has an advantage. Furthermore, due to the high demand for security guards, training is not always of the highest level for guards at restaurants or malls… so I think the authorities prefer empty chamber carry for these situations. Bottom line, empty chamber carry seems to go with pistols carried in the open where they are subject to being snatched etc. Lastly I would like to say… One hand load… First of all it did not work with my S&W M&P 9mm… and I want to see somebody do it sitting down in a car first! IMHO, it’s a nice range trick. Very impressive but not the sort of thing you want to bet your life on! Rafi |
January 10, 2010, 05:52 PM | #138 |
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Some of you watch too many movies, Jacking a round into the chamber before the big shoot out. First off a typical incident lasts only 15 seconds and is with-in 10 feet. If you carry with an empty chamber it was nice knowing you. I do believe most people who carry do have some common sense. Most of the weapons on the market are safe to carry with one in the chamber.
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January 11, 2010, 06:42 AM | #139 |
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I totally agree. Some of you watch too many movies.
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January 11, 2010, 08:51 AM | #140 |
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I'm not sure if it has been mentioned (I'm too lazy to go back through the thread). Some of the reasons mentioned for 'chamber empty' carry would be akin to carrying the first chamber empty in a revolver cylinder.
Who does that? |
January 11, 2010, 10:07 AM | #141 | |
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January 11, 2010, 10:38 AM | #142 |
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All D/A Revolvers have hammer blocks. Great for checking eye to sight when going double action. S&W Mod 10-64-65.
Take cylinder off, put in pocket, line your master eye, with shooters master eye, place gun sights between your two eyes, back sight first, bring front sight up to fill back sight notch. Eyes and sights centered! Establish proper grip/stance, press double action trigger straight through, watch sights as this is done. Five minutes, they can hit group in right spot when reverting to live fire! Not safe? Did this for over twenty years, 500 + students per year, only I handled this exercise. Worked. Use red plastic solid look alike for Glock sight picture exercise, solid sights cut to be able to do this. |
January 11, 2010, 07:42 PM | #143 | |
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Alot of the old Smiths from the 20s had a different way to block the hammer and it was not very strong. And, of course, there are other makes from across the pond we know may not work all so well. From RG to Clerks to Rohm.... It still pays to make sure your weapon is drop safe. Almost all are now days, but there still are older ones in service.
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January 12, 2010, 01:07 AM | #144 |
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This thread just blows me away.
1. If your gun is not safe to carry with a round in the chamber you are carrying the wrong gun, get another gun as soon as possible. Do the best you can with the junk you have until then, pray you don't really need it. 2. If your gun is safe to carry with a round in the chamber and you make a conscious decision to carry it without a round in the chamber, you are an idiot. Go practice (Take class for god's sake) and gain the confidence you need in your gun and yourself. Some of you people have obviously never had to react to the unknown, I have. See threat, draw, RACK?!?!?, bang. Are you out of you minds? You are going to get yourself killed, with an unloaded gun. See threat, draw, bang, repeat until threat ceases. Point blank range (4ft) 0.7 seconds (.6 on a good day), two shots center mass, every single time. Do that with your draw, rack bovine excrement. |
January 12, 2010, 02:15 AM | #145 | ||
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Deaf,
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Spencerhut, Quote:
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January 12, 2010, 05:50 AM | #146 | |
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--------------------------------------------------- Moe Howard: "Fire at will!" Larry Fine: "Which one's Will?" |
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January 12, 2010, 07:13 AM | #147 | ||
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Justify chamber empty however you want if it makes you feel better, but I don't see the logic myself. Watch video again for my reasoning.
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January 12, 2010, 07:46 AM | #148 |
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Question for Bluetrain
Bluetrain: What do you carry and what condition? Have you ever been involved in a gun fire exchange?
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January 12, 2010, 11:03 AM | #149 |
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I do not have a permit, which is irrelevant. At no point in this thread have I suggested that chamber loaded is a bad carry method, only defending chamber empty carry. Someone else brought up the subject, after all, for reasons I don't understand. I guess it's his business. But you can carry any old way you want as far as I'm concerned, provided you extend the same privilage to anyone else.
Nope, I've not been in a gunfight, been shot at, been stopped for speeding, been robbed, held up, held down or had my house burgled. I cannot understand how so many people here have had such bad experiences. I cannot understand how I've led such a peaceful life, even when I spent three years in the army. It wasn't that way so much when I was younger and my face has rather more than it's share of scars, also irrelevant. There is a lot of ego and bravado in this thread, isn't there. People have suggested that they are better trained than the police and that anyone with a gun should be better trained than average. Think about that. Are people walking around expecting to be attacked from ten yards away and that they'll be able to draw and shoot in time? Do people really think that chambering a round in an automatic pistol is so impossible? What are your own personal experiences that lead you to believe that your solutions are the best?
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Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. |
January 12, 2010, 11:18 AM | #150 |
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I don't personally care what people do. Condition 3, condition 4, no gun at all... whatever, it's your life. But trying to defend an absurdly poor decision is silly.
There is no reason to carry a drop safe pistol cond 3. None. You can certainly do it if you want, but don't pretend there is any logical reason. You can say "Well it's really not that big of a disadvantage" but I've yet to see any valid reason why it would be a better choice. |
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