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Old May 23, 2013, 12:31 PM   #26
Jimro
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Brian,

I agree, some of those primers look a little flat, but I've had that happen with even mild loads using GMM primers. I've also had primers smoosh out a tad when using a hand primer on "tight" brass.

What I don't see is ejector wipe, which I expect to go hand in hand with flattened primers for high pressure. One guy over at the m14 forum is showing flattened GMM primers with a 41.7gr charge of IMR4064; http://m14forum.com/showthread.php?p=1029701

I'm also not seeing any scratched/shiny spots on the neck or shoulder where the brass would be "grabbing" the chamber, so I think it is a brass issue more than a pressure issue. Unless his scale is off, then it could easily be a pressure issue.

Flea21,

Could you post a pic of some of your unfired rounds? I'd like to see the primers in a "before" setting. Also, could you show a measurement of brass length with your calipers?

Also, could you take a loose 175 gr SMK and measure it on your scale? Or a 5.56 bullet of known weight would do as well. Knocking the scale and brass lengths from the equation would help.

I still think the best way to test out your load is to anneal and trim the necks of the 6 rounds you've loaded, then load 1 with 41.5, 1 with 42.0, and the remaining 4 with 42.5gr of 4064 to see if annealing causes the hard extraction issue to go away.

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Old May 23, 2013, 12:34 PM   #27
Brian Pfleuger
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The primers by themselves wouldn't bother me. Flat primers coupled with pounding brass out of the chamber, that doesn't happen with factory ammo, and a scale that hasn't been verified in 2 months, positively screams high-pressure.
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Old May 23, 2013, 12:58 PM   #28
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Re: .308 reloading help...

Jimro.. I will tryvget that info for you as soon I have a free minute.. im trying to get ready for a charity event Im hosting this evening so my plate is full!
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Old May 23, 2013, 01:35 PM   #29
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Rings being formed. looks like more than the bullet trying to make it out the
end of the barrel. You did say that you trim?
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Old May 23, 2013, 04:13 PM   #30
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No one has asked this question so I will, what is it like when you load one of the troublesome one's. Is it hard to drop the bolt down when loading ( resistance ). Maybe chamber a shop bought, extract that one then chamber a home loaded one to compare. Just a thought that the neck of the brass is fouling the rifling on the way in causing a partial crimping to take place ???

Just another suggestion

Jamie
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Old May 23, 2013, 04:16 PM   #31
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Why would there be extractor marks on a case from a bolt gun?
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Old May 23, 2013, 04:34 PM   #32
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Different marks. It's more of an "imprint".
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Old May 23, 2013, 04:47 PM   #33
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Re: .308 reloading help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottish Highlander View Post
No one has asked this question so I will, what is it like when you load one of the troublesome one's. Is it hard to drop the bolt down when loading ( resistance ). Maybe chamber a shop bought, extract that one then chamber a home loaded one to compare. Just a thought that the neck of the brass is fouling the rifling on the way in causing a partial crimping to take place ???

Just another suggestion

Jamie
They both load the same.. it cycles smoothly its after shooting that theres a difference. Ill post some pix that Jimro requested and hopefully that will shed light on the situation.
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Old May 23, 2013, 05:32 PM   #34
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I only get imprints on my M4.

OP go head and measure the charge of a disassembled hand load for us. Btw. Is there anyway that powders got mixed up?
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Old May 23, 2013, 06:57 PM   #35
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You should check your throat length in your barrel , Remington Rifles for the most part have longer throats.... but maybe yours doesn't .

Does your rifle have the OEM barrel ? To me those pictures and your description sound over pressure.

Are you sure they have all been fully resized ? They should smoothly fall into your rifles chamber. Check one in your rifle or a .308 case gauge.
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Old May 23, 2013, 08:49 PM   #36
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Flea21 is shooting a Rem700 5R milspec. Unless the chamber is out of spec from the factory (unlikely as factory ammo run through his rifle has no issues) the rifle isn't the problem.

Current issue is only that the rearward movement of the bolt requires assistance with his handloads, bolt lift is normal. There is some flattening of the Fed GMM primers, but that doesn't worry me too much just yet as Fed GMM primers are known to flatten (my experience and others).

Current handloads are once fired PPU brass full length resized in Dillon carbide rifle dies, trimmed and loaded. The PPU brass was not fired in Flea21's rifle though, and it is unknown what type of rifle initially fired the PPU rounds. The brass was not annealed.

From what I know based on the situation, my best guess is that the necks have been overworked and the brass is sticking. Other people have reported sticking with PPU brass, even with factory ammo.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-501655.html
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=63583
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-594693.html
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/print...hreadid=229397
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...Brass-Sticking
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-670213.html

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Old May 24, 2013, 06:21 PM   #37
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Re: .308 reloading help...

Ok Jimro...

Heres what I have for you. The load that I made was actually 42.2gr of IMR 4064 (Sorry for the confusion there). Secondly, the brass was once fired out of a different bolt action rifle. I full length resized in my Dillon 550 with Dillon .308 Winchester Dies. I then trimmed the brass to 2.005" then deburred and chamfered the brass. I then seated the Federal GM 210M Primers and loaded the charge of 42.2gr of IMR 4064 and seated the bullet to 2.800".

I measured the weight of 6 projectiles in my scale to see if it was off or not and of the 6 I got between 174.6 and 174.8 which I believe to be accurate considering these projectiles are never perfectly 175grs. I took a caliper to these rounds you see below and from left to right of the second photo I got these OALs... 2.797", 2.800", 2.803", 2.795", 2.794", 2.798".

Clearly I am within the safe range of this load as per every manual I own and IMR's website. The bolt opens and closes just fine before firing and afterwards but when fired the rearward motion of the bolt requires some convincing by tapping with a rubber mallet, clearly not normal. I havent attempted to do anything as of yet because I wanna see if we can get to the bottom of this... Thank You for your help with this matter.
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Old May 24, 2013, 06:25 PM   #38
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Re: .308 reloading help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger View Post
The primers by themselves wouldn't bother me. Flat primers coupled with pounding brass out of the chamber, that doesn't happen with factory ammo, and a scale that hasn't been verified in 2 months, positively screams high-pressure.
Brian.. I just checked my scale and it is spot on. The charge in every load is exactly 42.2grs. I cannot stress to everyone here questioning my equipment and reloading practices, that everything is in safe working order and the user is extremely meticulous with his reloading process. Moving forward, lets please erase that from the problem here because clearly that is not the issue... Thank You.
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Old May 24, 2013, 08:44 PM   #39
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Flea21,

Could you measure the shoulders of those loaded rounds? I can't tell for sure but it looks like they are slightly larger than the body of the brass behind them.

Jimro
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Old May 24, 2013, 08:59 PM   #40
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Re: .308 reloading help...

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Originally Posted by Jimro View Post
Flea21,

Could you measure the shoulders of those loaded rounds? I can't tell for sure but it looks like they are slightly larger than the body of the brass behind them.

Jimro
Sure.. how do I do that? I have calipers but dunno where to measure to and how to get an accurate reading considering the curvature.

Last edited by Flea21; May 24, 2013 at 09:06 PM.
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Old May 24, 2013, 09:09 PM   #41
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According to a SAAMI drawing, the very tip of the shoulder shoulder should be 0.4540 inches. I would eyeball getting just the edge of the shoulder into your calipers to see if it is larger than that (if you move back a tad and the measurement decreases it is a sign the shoulder is larger than it should be). Honestly it could be just fine, but the reflection off of the brass looks like it increases in curvature near the shoulder which looks to me like a slightly enlarged shoulder.

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Old May 24, 2013, 09:28 PM   #42
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Re: .308 reloading help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimro View Post
According to a SAAMI drawing, the very tip of the shoulder shoulder should be 0.4540 inches. I would eyeball getting just the edge of the shoulder into your calipers to see if it is larger than that (if you move back a tad and the measurement decreases it is a sign the shoulder is larger than it should be). Honestly it could be just fine, but the reflection off of the brass looks like it increases in curvature near the shoulder which looks to me like a slightly enlarged shoulder.

Jimro
Ok.. I just measured it and its 0.454". Its worth checking though like you said.

Could this pressure issue be the use of the primer, its doubtful but just an idea I guess, I dunno!
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Old May 24, 2013, 09:38 PM   #43
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The primer flattening could be caused by the primer, but the brass sticking doesn't seem like a likely candidate for a primer issue.

Guess the only thing left to see is whether annealing helps the issue or not.

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Old May 24, 2013, 10:39 PM   #44
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Re: .308 reloading help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimro View Post
The primer flattening could be caused by the primer, but the brass sticking doesn't seem like a likely candidate for a primer issue.

Guess the only thing left to see is whether annealing helps the issue or not.

Jimro
Gotcha... Ok, so do I anneal 1st and then FL resize and reload or do I do the annealing afterwards... Gimme your procedure for this process please.

Last edited by Flea21; May 24, 2013 at 10:45 PM.
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Old May 25, 2013, 08:40 AM   #45
Jimro
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Just take the 6 spent casings and anneal, then resize/deprime, trim, and load as normal.

I started off annealing just holding the brass in my fingers and using a propane torch to heat the neck/shoulder area. When the brass starts to feel hot you can drop them in to a metal container or container of water.

Some people like to fill a pie tin about 3/4 with water, then stand their brass in the water, heat with a torch then knock them over. This keeps the bases of the brass from heating significantly and you don't run the risk of burnt fingers. If this is your first time annealing brass this is probably the way to go.

You don't need to drop hot cases into water, it does nothing but ensure that you don't start a fire by dropping a hot case on to something that could burn.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

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Old May 25, 2013, 09:03 AM   #46
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Flea21

I had a similar experience with some of my reloads. I believe it is due to neck wall thickness. And pressure definitely plays a part in it.

I used Federal brass with Nosler 168 grain HPBT, 49.1 grains of Winchester 760 powder. Primers were Federal 210M.

I measure at the shoulder (1.5535) case length (2.015) and at the ogive (2.160) and OAL (2.80).

The only variable I changed was the neck turning. The problem went away.

Now I'm on to a new problem.

P.S. Jimro has forgotten more than I know.
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Old May 25, 2013, 10:04 AM   #47
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Re: .308 reloading help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimro View Post
Just take the 6 spent casings and anneal, then resize/deprime, trim, and load as normal.

I started off annealing just holding the brass in my fingers and using a propane torch to heat the neck/shoulder area. When the brass starts to feel hot you can drop them in to a metal container or container of water.

Some people like to fill a pie tin about 3/4 with water, then stand their brass in the water, heat with a torch then knock them over. This keeps the bases of the brass from heating significantly and you don't run the risk of burnt fingers. If this is your first time annealing brass this is probably the way to go.

You don't need to drop hot cases into water, it does nothing but ensure that you don't start a fire by dropping a hot case on to something that could burn.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Jimro
Ok Jimro...

I will try that and im sure all will go well as far as me hurting myself, but thanx for the tips in that regard.

As far as trimming though, do I really need to trim afyer every firing? I trimmed these before I loaded them by the way. Is it just because we have issues with the reload I made that you want me to trim or what?
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Old May 25, 2013, 03:01 PM   #48
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I want these loads to be as identical as possible as your first loads except for the two reduced charge loads (to see if a lower charge doesn't stick) and the annealed neck/shoulder area in order to isolate a single variable. Normally you wouldn't trim again until the brass stretched beyond spec.

I guess to be really consistent you should anneal some of the other PPU brass you have, then resize/trim/load. That way you would know for sure how your first load on once fired brass really handles in your 5r.

If annealling the neck/shoulder area doesn't fix the problem, then I'll really be scratching my head.

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Old May 25, 2013, 03:07 PM   #49
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Re: .308 reloading help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimro View Post
I want these loads to be as identical as possible as your first loads except for the two reduced charge loads (to see if a lower charge doesn't stick) and the annealed neck/shoulder area in order to isolate a single variable. Normally you wouldn't trim again until the brass stretched beyond spec.

I guess to be really consistent you should anneal some of the other PPU brass you have, then resize/trim/load. That way you would know for sure how your first load on once fired brass really handles in your 5r.

If annealling the neck/shoulder area doesn't fix the problem, then I'll really be scratching my head.

Jimro
Ok.. Thats makes sense. I will get on this latwr tonight/tomorrow and will hopefully be firing these downrange tuesday if my schedule and the weather permits such an opportunity to do so. And with some trial & error and your knowledge in this arena, we wont have you scratching your head!
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Old May 25, 2013, 03:36 PM   #50
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Flea21

I know that this is not what you want to hear but you have a choice either get different cases or you're going to have to turn the necks of those cases.

I am certain that your problem is in the neck of your casings, that's why they are black. The necks are too thick and don't have much room for expansion when you fire your round. Even after they cool off (in a split second) they are wedged in too tight. Consequently they get stuck in you rifle.

Not only that but the pressure form the gun powder is trying to force the brass to flow forward (that's why case get trimmed after each firing). Since someone else already pointed out that your brass is thick to start with, your problems starter sooner than it might have with another brand.

Get your calibers and measure the neck thickness of your brass at 3-4 places on the neck of a cartridge. You WILL find differences in neck thickness. That is why your reloads aren't accurate and your case get stuck.

I too tried everything before I gave up and as last resort did neck turning, but that's the road we travel.
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