Fired first batch today, not too good. PICS ADDED - Page 4

hulley · September 5, 2011, 06:51 AM

Ok, I'm up early cause I have alot of work to do around the house today! My head is spinning with all the responses that I dont know where to begin! The last batch I made was only 10 rounds. I thought my problem was case bulging and not OAL. None of my first batch would slip in/out of the case gauge so I started over.
I took a case and resized it then check with the case gauge, when I got a good fit I moved on to the next die. I would make just enough "bell" that I could fit a bullit in then I moved on to the next die (no bullit). With the seating die I adjusted it to where the "bell" was removed and I could get a good fit in the gauge. At the crimp die I would cycle the brass and check with the case gauge, all was good!
Repeat process but make a live round. With the exception of the powder charge/belling die, I checked every time with the case gauge. All my rounds (2nd batch) easily slip in/out of the case gauge, I would think that then my problem is OAL, is that not correct?
Someone had mention they didnt know what gun I was using, I'm using a Kahr CW9 and a Sig P225 (my favorite in the whole world!).
I guess what I'll do now is repeat the whole process, no powder or primer, and make a dummy round using my barrels and case gauge. sigh...
I'm actually glad I'm having these problems, you dont learn until you make mistakes, you only fail when you quit.

hulley · September 5, 2011, 06:55 AM

BTW, I'm gonna take my Laptop to the bench to go over all this while I try.

Thanks
Steve

hulley · September 5, 2011, 07:45 AM

Ok, here we go again! After several dummy rounds I found something that works, I think. The first pic is as follows, Speer GD JHP 124gr +P, middle is the second batch, this one easily slipd in/out of case gauge but does not with the barrels, far right, I made this this morning, rounds easily slips in/out of case gauge and both of my barrels.

This is the length it took. Literally, 1.065 did not work!

Now my question is this. Is my OAL of 1.059 too short? Am I raising the case pressure too much or should I be OK? I'm using 6.0gr which my book calls for 5.8-6.4grs max.

I sincerly thank of all you for your help.
Steve

hulley · September 5, 2011, 07:47 AM

Here is my first round.

I see quite a difference!

engineermike · September 5, 2011, 08:17 AM

1.059 seems to be where the bullet just starts to fit the barrel. To get this bullet to cycle and be most accurate you may have to go shorter. Going shorter will increase the pressure more and we have not even began to address the fact that you may be over crimping with your die and crimping/over crimping will increase the pressure too. From the looks of your first loads I would guess you are using a seat die that has a roll crimp. I would suggest that you not use the crimp in the die while seating and make that a separate step in your process and you may want to conceder a taper crimp. I have not used the factory crimp die but a lot of loaders here like them so that too may be an-option for you.
Back to the pressure issues, I can not find any published data for a C.O.L. of 1.159 only goes down to 1.075. I have gone lower but was using HP-38 powder so my findings will not help you. It appears you are going to have to "SWAG" this bullet, are you going to be comfortable doing this? You will also want to be aware that although you may not see signs of over pressure as you are shooting this round going to the Max load will shorten the life of you gun. You are going into uncharted waters here so "BE CAREFUL"... You may also be getting into making a compressed load and that is a whole other animal mostly used in rifle ammo.

Brian Pfleuger · September 5, 2011, 08:52 AM

I think that'll work fine.

If you look at the ogive of both bullets (the first full diameter area), you can "eye ball" that the Speer GD and your finished round are roughly the same.

The lone bullet there, I assume is from the previous batch? Your finished round looks like you've got the crimp about right and it should no longer be doing that to the bullet.

armoredman · September 5, 2011, 09:55 AM

I have loaded that bullet as short as 1.040 with no issues.

**Mal H** · September 5, 2011, 10:42 AM

If you want another vote - your latest rounds look much better than your earlier ones!

Quote:

Now my question is this. Is my OAL of 1.059 too short?

No, you have to load a particular bullet to the OAL that works, keeping in mind that a smaller case capacity below the bullet base can up the pressure. Checking the official Accurate Loading Guide, the range for a bullet of that weight is 5.9 grains to 6.5 grains of #5. You are very close to the starting load, so you are in safe territory.

Since you determined that 1.059" is the max OAL that will work in your gun, I would go just a scosh shorter, maybe 1.050", to assure greater reliability and leave a little bit of wiggle room in reloading large amounts of rounds (it's almost impossible to get each and every one of them to be the desired OAL, and it's not necessary to do so).

engineermike · September 5, 2011, 11:08 AM

So if I take this bullet I can load to any C.O.L. just as long as I am using between 6.5 and 5.9 grains of AA # 5?

Armoredman, you didn't tell us what power or how much of it you use when loading at the 1.040 C.O.L.

CrustyFN · September 5, 2011, 11:17 AM

I have shot a lot of Berry's bullets in 9mm and am very happy with them. The problem with their HP's and FP's is that they are a lot wider at the end than most other brands. I can load them to 1.12 for my Glock but had the seat them to 1.035 to get them to chamber in my CZ. The easiest way I found to find the right OAL is to take an empty case and seat a bullet. Do the plink test with the barrel and keep seating a little deeper until it drops in and out with no trouble. Then measure the OAL.

dunerjeff · September 5, 2011, 11:17 AM

It looks fine ,and I second the vote to not use the seater die to take out the bell.When you bell the case the bullet should just sit on top and stay their on its own,it should not fit down in the case without the seater pushing it down.If you have the seater die set up to take the bell out it needs to be backed out 1 full turn and the seater stem turned in to get your 1.05 oal.Then with the crimp die take out the bell.I've had mixed results using the crimp with the seater,they tend to crimp before the bullet is to debth and shaving copper.

hulley · September 5, 2011, 11:30 AM

To make sure I understand this.
The seating die does two things, seat the bullit (duh) and perform a small crimp which in turn removes the bell?
Does it do a roll crimp or taper crimp?
The bullet seat die can/should be backed out a little bit and then turn in the seat adjuster in to compensate?
Finally the crimp die does what type of crimp?
Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, its just that there is so much info on this thread that I want to make sure i understand it all, even though I've really learned a great deal in the last day or so through everyones input.

Yes, the lone bullit was pulled from the first batch.

hulley · September 5, 2011, 11:31 AM

Whats great is a bought a bag of lead cast bullits that I get to do next! That will be a separate thread!

dunerjeff · September 5, 2011, 11:45 AM

Most seater dies do seat and have a crimp(Mostly taper crimp)feature. If you use the crimp part on the seater die it is possible to have it adjusted down too far so it starts the crimp before the bullet is seated down all the way.Personaly I prefer to just use a seperate crimp die and keep the seater die backed out about 1 or 2 turns from making contact with the case and using the seating stem to adjust bullet debth.If you were screwing the die itself down to adjust oal ,you were probably running into the crimp feature.

hulley · September 5, 2011, 12:18 PM

I used the adjuster to seat the round. I can back out of the die if this is good practice and make sure the crimp die is doing its job.

**Mal H** · September 5, 2011, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engineermike

So if I take this bullet I can load to any C.O.L. just as long as I am using between 6.5 and 5.9 grains of AA # 5?

Is that what I said? Answer: No, not even close.

armoredman · September 5, 2011, 12:55 PM

engineermike, here's the data from my record sheets, use at own risk, not liable, etc., etc....

Bullet................case..............powder...........COAL.....notes
124gr Ber JHP.....WW .............5.9gr AA#5.......1.040.....good
124gr Ber JHP...PMP/WW.........5.8gr AA#5 .......1.040.....good

I ran out before I got to my favorite of Accurate #7. I'll get some more someday. This info is from several years ago - AA data HAS CHANGED!

dunerjeff · September 5, 2011, 01:05 PM

For me ,I prefer the seater die to just seat the bullet,not crimp.You have the Lee crimp die so that would be a good way for you too.Just keep the seater die backed out 1 to 2 turns(you should be able to run a belled case through the seater die and not have it touch the case).Then when you have a bullet seated to 1.05 put the crimp die in and with the press ram up as far as it goes,slowly turn the crimp die down till it just starts touching ,back the ram down,turn the die in about 1/8 to 1/4 turn and lock down.you should be good to go.Do the barrel check and verify.

engineermike · September 5, 2011, 01:19 PM

No Mal it is what I said, you left out the C.O.L. you used when loading in this powder range. Your data is incomplete.

Yes armored man the load data on the Accurate page is different than the data you have. No I won't be loading anything with your data.

**Mal H** · September 5, 2011, 04:40 PM

I have to ask what are you talking about engineermike? I have never reloaded that bullet so there is no COL for me to report for the powder weight range indicated. I said that 1.059" is not too short, and that I would go a little shorter for reliability purposes. I said/implied that since he was very close to the starting powder weight, he wasn't creating a dangerous round.

You can certainly disagree with that assessment, but to say my data is incomplete is a non sequitur.

excelerater · September 5, 2011, 06:05 PM

just curious

why those bullets and not FMJs?

engineermike · September 5, 2011, 06:17 PM

Mal,
YOu said "Checking the official Accurate Loading Guide, the range for a bullet of that weight is 5.9 grains to 6.5 grains of #5. You are very close to the starting load, so you are in safe territory." Now the last time I looked the published load data gives a range for powder and a C.O.L. You left out the C.O.L. and implied that loading within the powder load range was all anyone needed to load with. Hulley will be loading outside of the published C.O.L. and you are implying that he can go to any C.O.L. and still be safe. Now you are putting out information on something you don't load. So again your data is incomplete.

TXGunNut · September 5, 2011, 07:40 PM

Good job, Hulley. Hope it shoots as good as it looks.
Sorry, Mike. If you'd been following the thread and read Mal's post (#83) in it's entirety you'd know it was a very accurate statement.

armoredman · September 5, 2011, 07:45 PM

Accurate Data has changed, just like I said, and the latest, downloaded from Accurate's home page, is for a Ranier plated 124gr HP, Accurate # 5 powder.
Start 5.3, max 6.1. Not 5.9 to 6.5
The two Berrys specifically named bullets in the AA# 5 data is the HBFP and RN,

HBFP, start 5.0 max 5.8
RN, start 5.6 max 6.3.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/

They do list long COALs of 1.13 to 1.16, but for the HBFP COAL is 1.060.

TXGunNut · September 5, 2011, 08:22 PM

Good point, Armoredman. Lee is even more conservative.

September 5, 2011, 08:52 AM	#81
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I think that'll work fine. If you look at the ogive of both bullets (the first full diameter area), you can "eye ball" that the Speer GD and your finished round are roughly the same. The lone bullet there, I assume is from the previous batch? Your finished round looks like you've got the crimp about right and it should no longer be doing that to the bullet. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

September 5, 2011, 11:17 AM	#85
CrustyFN Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 2,258	I have shot a lot of Berry's bullets in 9mm and am very happy with them. The problem with their HP's and FP's is that they are a lot wider at the end than most other brands. I can load them to 1.12 for my Glock but had the seat them to 1.035 to get them to chamber in my CZ. The easiest way I found to find the right OAL is to take an empty case and seat a bullet. Do the plink test with the barrel and keep seating a little deeper until it drops in and out with no trouble. Then measure the OAL. __________________ I don't ever remember being absent minded.

September 5, 2011, 07:40 PM	#98
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Good job, Hulley. Hope it shoots as good as it looks. Sorry, Mike. If you'd been following the thread and read Mal's post (#83) in it's entirety you'd know it was a very accurate statement. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights. Last edited by TXGunNut; September 5, 2011 at 07:53 PM.

September 5, 2011, 08:22 PM	#100
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Good point, Armoredman. Lee is even more conservative. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

September 5, 2011, 06:51 AM	#76
hulley Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2008 Location: Hoschton, Ga. Posts: 726	Ok, I'm up early cause I have alot of work to do around the house today! My head is spinning with all the responses that I dont know where to begin! The last batch I made was only 10 rounds. I thought my problem was case bulging and not OAL. None of my first batch would slip in/out of the case gauge so I started over. I took a case and resized it then check with the case gauge, when I got a good fit I moved on to the next die. I would make just enough "bell" that I could fit a bullit in then I moved on to the next die (no bullit). With the seating die I adjusted it to where the "bell" was removed and I could get a good fit in the gauge. At the crimp die I would cycle the brass and check with the case gauge, all was good! Repeat process but make a live round. With the exception of the powder charge/belling die, I checked every time with the case gauge. All my rounds (2nd batch) easily slip in/out of the case gauge, I would think that then my problem is OAL, is that not correct? Someone had mention they didnt know what gun I was using, I'm using a Kahr CW9 and a Sig P225 (my favorite in the whole world!). I guess what I'll do now is repeat the whole process, no powder or primer, and make a dummy round using my barrels and case gauge. sigh... I'm actually glad I'm having these problems, you dont learn until you make mistakes, you only fail when you quit.

September 5, 2011, 06:55 AM	#77
hulley Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2008 Location: Hoschton, Ga. Posts: 726	BTW, I'm gonna take my Laptop to the bench to go over all this while I try. Thanks Steve

September 5, 2011, 07:45 AM	#78
hulley Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2008 Location: Hoschton, Ga. Posts: 726	Ok, here we go again! After several dummy rounds I found something that works, I think. The first pic is as follows, Speer GD JHP 124gr +P, middle is the second batch, this one easily slipd in/out of case gauge but does not with the barrels, far right, I made this this morning, rounds easily slips in/out of case gauge and both of my barrels. This is the length it took. Literally, 1.065 did not work! Now my question is this. Is my OAL of 1.059 too short? Am I raising the case pressure too much or should I be OK? I'm using 6.0gr which my book calls for 5.8-6.4grs max. I sincerly thank of all you for your help. Steve

September 5, 2011, 07:47 AM	#79
hulley Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2008 Location: Hoschton, Ga. Posts: 726	Here is my first round. I see quite a difference!

September 5, 2011, 08:17 AM	#80
engineermike Junior member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Oklahaoma City Posts: 538	1.059 seems to be where the bullet just starts to fit the barrel. To get this bullet to cycle and be most accurate you may have to go shorter. Going shorter will increase the pressure more and we have not even began to address the fact that you may be over crimping with your die and crimping/over crimping will increase the pressure too. From the looks of your first loads I would guess you are using a seat die that has a roll crimp. I would suggest that you not use the crimp in the die while seating and make that a separate step in your process and you may want to conceder a taper crimp. I have not used the factory crimp die but a lot of loaders here like them so that too may be an-option for you. Back to the pressure issues, I can not find any published data for a C.O.L. of 1.159 only goes down to 1.075. I have gone lower but was using HP-38 powder so my findings will not help you. It appears you are going to have to "SWAG" this bullet, are you going to be comfortable doing this? You will also want to be aware that although you may not see signs of over pressure as you are shooting this round going to the Max load will shorten the life of you gun. You are going into uncharted waters here so "BE CAREFUL"... You may also be getting into making a compressed load and that is a whole other animal mostly used in rifle ammo.

September 5, 2011, 09:55 AM	#82
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	I have loaded that bullet as short as 1.040 with no issues.

September 5, 2011, 11:08 AM	#84
engineermike Junior member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Oklahaoma City Posts: 538	So if I take this bullet I can load to any C.O.L. just as long as I am using between 6.5 and 5.9 grains of AA # 5? Armoredman, you didn't tell us what power or how much of it you use when loading at the 1.040 C.O.L.

September 5, 2011, 11:17 AM	#86
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	It looks fine ,and I second the vote to not use the seater die to take out the bell.When you bell the case the bullet should just sit on top and stay their on its own,it should not fit down in the case without the seater pushing it down.If you have the seater die set up to take the bell out it needs to be backed out 1 full turn and the seater stem turned in to get your 1.05 oal.Then with the crimp die take out the bell.I've had mixed results using the crimp with the seater,they tend to crimp before the bullet is to debth and shaving copper.

September 5, 2011, 11:30 AM	#87
hulley Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2008 Location: Hoschton, Ga. Posts: 726	To make sure I understand this. The seating die does two things, seat the bullit (duh) and perform a small crimp which in turn removes the bell? Does it do a roll crimp or taper crimp? The bullet seat die can/should be backed out a little bit and then turn in the seat adjuster in to compensate? Finally the crimp die does what type of crimp? Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, its just that there is so much info on this thread that I want to make sure i understand it all, even though I've really learned a great deal in the last day or so through everyones input. Yes, the lone bullit was pulled from the first batch.

September 5, 2011, 11:31 AM	#88
hulley Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2008 Location: Hoschton, Ga. Posts: 726	Whats great is a bought a bag of lead cast bullits that I get to do next! That will be a separate thread!

September 5, 2011, 11:45 AM	#89
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	Most seater dies do seat and have a crimp(Mostly taper crimp)feature. If you use the crimp part on the seater die it is possible to have it adjusted down too far so it starts the crimp before the bullet is seated down all the way.Personaly I prefer to just use a seperate crimp die and keep the seater die backed out about 1 or 2 turns from making contact with the case and using the seating stem to adjust bullet debth.If you were screwing the die itself down to adjust oal ,you were probably running into the crimp feature.

September 5, 2011, 12:18 PM	#90
hulley Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2008 Location: Hoschton, Ga. Posts: 726	I used the adjuster to seat the round. I can back out of the die if this is good practice and make sure the crimp die is doing its job.

September 5, 2011, 12:55 PM	#92
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	engineermike, here's the data from my record sheets, use at own risk, not liable, etc., etc.... Bullet................case..............powder...........COAL.....notes 124gr Ber JHP.....WW .............5.9gr AA#5.......1.040.....good 124gr Ber JHP...PMP/WW.........5.8gr AA#5 .......1.040.....good I ran out before I got to my favorite of Accurate #7. I'll get some more someday. This info is from several years ago - AA data HAS CHANGED!

September 5, 2011, 01:05 PM	#93
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	For me ,I prefer the seater die to just seat the bullet,not crimp.You have the Lee crimp die so that would be a good way for you too.Just keep the seater die backed out 1 to 2 turns(you should be able to run a belled case through the seater die and not have it touch the case).Then when you have a bullet seated to 1.05 put the crimp die in and with the press ram up as far as it goes,slowly turn the crimp die down till it just starts touching ,back the ram down,turn the die in about 1/8 to 1/4 turn and lock down.you should be good to go.Do the barrel check and verify.

September 5, 2011, 01:19 PM	#94
engineermike Junior member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Oklahaoma City Posts: 538	No Mal it is what I said, you left out the C.O.L. you used when loading in this powder range. Your data is incomplete. Yes armored man the load data on the Accurate page is different than the data you have. No I won't be loading anything with your data.

September 5, 2011, 04:40 PM	#95
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,948	I have to ask what are you talking about engineermike? I have never reloaded that bullet so there is no COL for me to report for the powder weight range indicated. I said that 1.059" is not too short, and that I would go a little shorter for reliability purposes. I said/implied that since he was very close to the starting powder weight, he wasn't creating a dangerous round. You can certainly disagree with that assessment, but to say my data is incomplete is a non sequitur.

September 5, 2011, 06:05 PM	#96
excelerater Junior member Join Date: June 27, 2011 Location: Memphis TN Posts: 694	just curious why those bullets and not FMJs?

September 5, 2011, 06:17 PM	#97
engineermike Junior member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Oklahaoma City Posts: 538	Mal, YOu said "Checking the official Accurate Loading Guide, the range for a bullet of that weight is 5.9 grains to 6.5 grains of #5. You are very close to the starting load, so you are in safe territory." Now the last time I looked the published load data gives a range for powder and a C.O.L. You left out the C.O.L. and implied that loading within the powder load range was all anyone needed to load with. Hulley will be loading outside of the published C.O.L. and you are implying that he can go to any C.O.L. and still be safe. Now you are putting out information on something you don't load. So again your data is incomplete.

September 5, 2011, 07:45 PM	#99
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	Accurate Data has changed, just like I said, and the latest, downloaded from Accurate's home page, is for a Ranier plated 124gr HP, Accurate # 5 powder. Start 5.3, max 6.1. Not 5.9 to 6.5 The two Berrys specifically named bullets in the AA# 5 data is the HBFP and RN, HBFP, start 5.0 max 5.8 RN, start 5.6 max 6.3. http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/ They do list long COALs of 1.13 to 1.16, but for the HBFP COAL is 1.060.