Standard pressure 38 special defensive ammo?

[rburch]

So I'm in the process of upgrading from a Taurus snubby to a Colt Detective Special. Since the taurus is a 357 I've been carrying 38+p ammo. For a number of reasons I'd prefer not to run that ammo in the Colt, but I'm not really familiar with the non +p options. I know Massad Ayoob recommended the Federal Nyclad on a podcast, but I haven't found that load in stock anywhere. What other options are out there?

[2damnold4this]

Hornady's Critical Defense

[KyJim]

BuffaloBore has a specially designed standard pressure load. Check their website

[Laz]

I like the Nyclad and have a fair stash but hornady makes several standard pressure loads in weights of 110, 125, and 158 grains. Federal makes a decent 110 grain load. Since few standard pressure loads, especially heavier ones, expand from a snubby, I'm beginning to think a regular 158 grain LSWC or even 158 grain cowboy load loaded to 800 fps might not be as good as any.

[jglsprings]

I use the Nyclads when I'm looking for a standard pressure 38 Special load. I really like the bullet design.

[Waspinator]

I like Hornady XTP 158 gr for a standard 38 special defence round.

http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Special-158-gr-XTP/

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Buffalo Bore is still easy to find and is top notch ammo.

I like to carry my own hot but not +P wadcutters.

[JERRYS.]

for the recoil shy there is the federal 110gr. hydra-shok. there are also various standard pressure 158gr. loads out there if you don't mind a little more recoil.

[Micahweeks]

I asked something kind of like this about carrying my preferred "all purpose/hunting" load for defense. I got a lot of great responses, and my own research revealed some excellent .38 loads in non-+P and +P. I like heavier loads, the 158 gr. stuff, and some YouTube videos show non +P .38 in 158 gr. getting some really, really impressive penetration and expansion. I'll try and find the link someone posted about one load in particular and edit this post with it. It astounded me how this bullet performed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5pWEU8qX7g

He keeps calling it +P in the video, but it isn't +P. He corrected himself in the video description.

[rburch]

Looks like I've got a few options. I'd love to find the nyclads but since Federal doesn't seem to be making it at the moment, and the standard pressure crit defense seems to be out of stock everywhere I look, I think I'm going to test the Buffalo Bore loads first.

[TimSr]

I like to carry my own hot but not +P wadcutters.

Same here. Cast DEWC just under +P pressures.

[rburch]

I've ordered a couple boxes of Buffalo Bore, and of that new Winchester W Defense Line.

I'm going to try them both out and see how the Colt handles them.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by JERRYS.

for the recoil shy there is the federal 110gr. hydra-shok.

There's also the new 90gr Hornady Critical Defense Lite, if you aren't put off by the dandified pink packaging.

Also...

Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve

I like to carry my own hot but not +P wadcutters.

I one does not handload, or prefers not to use handloads for SD for legal reasons*, there's actually a strong argument for using 148gr lead hollow-base wadcutter target loads. Gel tests have demonstrated that these perform surprisingly well- better than virtually any other non-expanding .38Spl load when used against a thin-skinned target that doesn't require lots of penetration.

*Let's not discuss that here; it's been beaten to death in PLENTY of other threads.

[SaxonPig]

Personally, I would not use any gun for self defense that was so weak, or I was so concerned about damaging that I couldn't load it with high performance ammo.

Secondly, I would not trust my life to weak and ineffective loads.

Your question baffles me. What is more important to you, the gun or your life?

My 38 Special carry load is a 125 JHP at a clocked 1,200 FPS from a 2" barrel. I feel OK with that. I consider mainstream "+P" (125@925 from a 4" barrel and around 900 from a 2" gun) to be much too weak to bet my life on it. You want to go weaker than this? To avoid wear on your Detective Special? I go back to my previous question, which is more important to you?

The DS is real cool and all, but maybe you should consider a more utilitarian pistol as a working gun? Seems like you want to treat it as a collector's piece rather than a practical carry gun.

PS: Why do you think your Colt can't handle +P ammo? I suggest shooting 5,000 rounds of mainstream +P and see what it does to the gun. By the way, the answer is it will do nothing. Your DS was designed to handle loads at 21,500 PSI. Current "+P" runs 18,500-20,000, or well below maximum allowable pressure. Why the concern?

[mavracer]

Besides it's not the +p pressure that causes problems with DS it's the thrust that wears the lockwork, Buffalo Bore's standard pressure load will be just as hard on the DS lockwork as any SAAMI manufactures +p load since it's running at the same velocity.

[rburch]

There is another reason for my question.

I'm an NRA Instructor, and a trend I've been running into is smaller or older women that are having trouble handling even 38+p loads.

Part of that is the stupidity of selling lightweight snubbys to beginners because it's a "Lady's Gun," but the fact remains with many of my students that's the gun they have, and they can't really afford to buy something else.

Having a decent lower recoil load would give them something they could use until they can get a better gun.

[Skadoosh]

BuffaloBore has a specially designed standard pressure load. Check their website

That BB 158 SWCHP Standard pressure ammo is gooooooood stuff.

[mavracer]

Having a decent lower recoil load would give them something they could use until they can get a better gun.

As a NRA instrustor I would think you would understand that the projectile's weight and velocity are what cause recoil not pressure, that BB 158 standard pressure load will recoil more than your typical +p 110 gr or 125gr load.

If you're looking for less recoil look to the 110 critical defense or go back to the classic 148gr target wadcutter loads, sure they don't expand but they'll punch a nice .357 dia hole through 15-16"

That BB 158 SWCHP Standard pressure ammo is gooooooood stuff.

And I wonder if BB was a member of SAAMI if it would still have a standard pressure rating. My bet is no.

[rburch]

As a NRA instrustor I would think you would understand that the projectile's weight and velocity are what cause recoil not pressure, that BB 158 standard pressure load will recoil more than your typical +p 110 gr or 125gr load.

If you're looking for less recoil look to the 110 critical defense or go back to the classic 148gr target wadcutter loads, sure they don't expand but they'll punch a nice .357 dia hole through 15-16"

I was mostly talking about the new Winchester W ammo, I get that the 158 BB will still be heavy recoil. That said I've ordered a box of BB 125gr JHP to test.

I'm also going to test the Hornady standard pressure (if i can find any)

Still in my experience with the same bullet weight, recoil increases when you increase the pressure because the velocity is increased.

The loads I'm looking at are all in the 110-130gr bullet weight.

[Jim Watson]

SaxonPig and rburch are both right.
I doubt anybody here gets in enough gunfights to worry about beating up his gun with heavy loads. A cylinder full at the close of a practice session as a reminder of what it takes to handle them will let the gun last a long time.

On the other hand, there are people who are physically or psychologically unable to handle the blast and recoil of ammunition that, as Jeff Cooper said, "gets the .38 snubby off its knees." They can select light bullets or wadcutters and hope for the best. Wild Bill Hickok's .36 Navies weren't all that powerful, either. But he did practice.

[mavracer]

Still in my experience with the same bullet weight, recoil increases when you increase the pressure because the velocity is increased.

While pressure and velocity are closely related, Peak pressure (what gets your pressure rating and what will cause pressure signs) often are not.
A faster powder will cause higher peak pressure with typically lower velocity than a slower one because the dwell time of the pressure is longer.
One of the problems with going to the lighter weight bullets in standard pressure 38s to reduce recoul is good old Isaac Newton shows up, Most of the lighter weight loads that expand don't carry the momentum required to penetrate

[riverrat38]

I use BB's 150 gr hardcast WC's for carry and practice with plated handload WC's at about the same speed.
The BB stuff gets about 860 FPS in my 2 inch S&W M640 Pro, which is Magnum rated.
The BB ammo is very accurate. Its just too expensive to practice much with. I do use about 2 boxes a year for "calibration" purposes.
BB ammo is available for shipping, something that can't be said about all ammo these days.

Best,
Rick

[Dave1911]

Part of that is the stupidity of selling lightweight snubbys to beginners because it's a "Lady's Gun," but the fact remains with many of my students that's the gun they have, and they can't really afford to buy something else.

Having a decent lower recoil load would give them something they could use until they can get a better gun.

Yes 15 oz 38sp have some kick with 158 grain bullets. But my son was able to shoot them at 11 and he weighed less than 90 lbs. But doubt he would have wanted to shoot a box of 50.

I recently ran across Zero brand 125 gr that are hollow points in standard pressure. They shoot very nicely out of the 642. Not sure what their stopping power is but given I can control the gun quite well, 5 in the torso at 5 yards probably stops them.

Also for the little 38 kick you mention, getting some bigger hogue rubber grips really helps a lot. The recoil out of my 15 oz 642 could tear skin with the stock hard and small grips.

[Bezoar]

better grips do help with recoil control in light weight guns but, the grips change the whole shape of the gun. Who wants to have to spend 100 bucks on new speed loaders because the new 12 dollar grip they got on their snub wont work with their old ones?

[Dave1911]

On 642 the stock grips did not work well with HKS loaders but the longer and more comfortable Hogue grips work fine. While bigger, they are not as wide where it counts. And they were cheap as I recall.