Lead in Venison

[JWT]

The following was on the AP this morning. The last sentence about Minnesota considering banning lead bullets is a bit frightening. Seems the Dr. in N.D. has stirred up things the way he apparently wanted to. Another ploy by the antis to get at the ammo if they can't get at the guns.


"Officials from seven states discuss lead dangers in venison


BLOOMINGTON, Minn. (AP) -- Education could be a key to reducing any dangers from lead in venison - as well as to calming public fears - officials from seven Midwestern states agreed Wednesday.

Among the ideas floated at a conference here are that hunters could be taught about how to best shoot deer to minimize the risk, how to field dress a carcass to reduce lead residues and what kinds of bullets to use.

Meat processors could be shown how to remove lead from carcasses and how ground meat could pose more of a hazard than other cuts. And the public could be taught how to spot lead in meat and avoid it.

Lead is left behind in meat as bullets travel through deer and can be toxic to humans. Children under age 6 and pregnant women are at highest risk from lead exposure.

The meeting brought together wildlife, health and agriculture officials and hunting community leaders from Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Michigan and Missouri. They agreed to work together so hunters and consumers hear the same message.

Fears about lead in venison surfaced in March when a Bismarck, N.D., doctor contacted the North Dakota Health Department with concerns about lead fragments he found in ground deer meat. The doctor took X-rays of 95 ground venison samples from food shelves. Fifty-three showed signs of the heavy metal.

The doctor's findings convinced most Midwest food shelves to halt venison distribution, and nearly a third of the food pantry venison samples then checked by the Minnesota Department of Agriculture were found to contain lead.

The findings sent shock waves through the hunting community, both because of food safety concerns and fears that it would discourage people from hunting.

"We have until November to figure out the ramifications of it," said Mark Johnson of the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association.

State officials need to decide before this fall's hunt whether to continue programs that encourage hunters to donate venison to food shelves, which provide food to needy families.

Dave Schad, director of the division of fish and wildlife at the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, said there is little information about the dangers of lead in meat. The DNR plans to conduct tests this summer to see how much lead is spread by bullets when deer are shot.

In North Dakota, officials from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are testing blood in 700 people to see if those who eat meat from deer shot with lead bullets show higher concentrations of lead.

George Vandel of the South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks Department suggested that hunters be trained to take better shots so they hit deer in places where bullets are less likely to fragment.

"Don't shoot a running deer," he said.

Sandi Washek of the North Dakota Health Department said even veteran hunters, who say they never have become ill from eating venison, could be educated about what lead can do to them.

Stacy Eberl, also of the North Dakota Health Department, said many venison eaters never have bitten into a bullet fragment. But bullets may disintegrate upon hitting bone and go unnoticed, she said.

No one at the meeting appeared to lean toward banning lead bullets, although Schad said he expects there will be talk of that in the Minnesota Legislature."

[TimRB]

Yep, this is nothing more than another anti-gun piece posing as a "we care about your health" story. The CDC, especially, would like to do anything it can to annoy shooters. If it were otherwise, they would recognize that people have been using firearms to hunt deer in these parts for over 200 years without significant lead problems.

Tim

[fisherman66]

I've seen lead fragments. They are easy to spot and easily cleaned away. Lead shot in turkey and quail is a little more difficult to get rid of in the cleaning process, but easily spit out as long as they don't turn into a tooth filling. Perhaps we should focus more on tooth care

It might be time to stock up on reloading supplies. I have no desire to cast my own bullets. Slipping that copper jacket over the bullet isn't quite like making pigs in a blanket.

[stevelyn]

Don't you think that after 400+ years of people eating critters killed with lead projectiles that if there were health problems associated with it, they would have shown up long before now?

The very idea defies logic based on what we know about lead and lead poisoning.

This is another fraud contrived by a hack with an official title to pursue a political agenda. :barf:

[Yellowfin]

This is why we need to revolt as a society against these kinds of people. If you know that a doctor or business is anti-gun/anti-hunting, refuse to give them business. Likewise those who are known anti 2A activists or organization members and contributors should be refused service and business, excluded from civic activities and organizations, and never voted into any office of any kind. We need to start telling these people that this is unacceptable and we will not tolerate it.

[Kreyzhorse]

This is another fraud contrived by a hack with an official title to pursue a political agenda.

I rank this right up there with global warming and carbon credits.

Hack scientists with an agenda.

[MeekAndMild]

The general member of the public has over 100 times the chemically bound lead in their body that their great grandparents had. This is due entirely to the universal use of tetraethyl lead compounds in gasoline and lead powder in paint for most of the 20th century. It has nothing to do with bullets. We have no idea how long organic lead compounds and lead dust paint residue remain in the environment but estimates run into centuries.

Recovered lead is exceedingly rare in deer shot with high powered rifles (seriously, how many bullet fragments have you seen?). Even if you swallowed a teaspoon of bullet fragments the elemental lead it would pass unchanged from your body in 1-2 days without absorption.

[fisherman66]

how many bullet fragments have you seen?

I've actually seen quite a few, but I use mainly ballistic tips (I have even found the polymer tip many times). I have never bitten into a bullet fragment. Shot is another thing altogether, but I don't believe I've ever swallowed a single shot.

[simonkenton]

It is hard for me to believe that lead would be present in 53 out of 95 packages of deer hamburger.
I have killed over 80 deer and eaten every one of them. Most of them I processed myself.
Plus I have helped my buddies quarter, and cut up and grind burger and sausage from 40 or 50 other deer that they shot.
Usually the deer is shot in the ribs so the danger of lead is a moot point, the ribs are thrown away anyway.
If there is a shoulder shot, or neck shot, there is a good chance of there being lead fragments. However, these would always be in an area with blood shot meat. This blood shot meat is always cut out and thrown away. I have seen plenty of lead fragments in this blood shot meat but took care to get rid of it.

I have never bitten down on a lead fragment in the thousands of pounds of venison that I have eaten.

Somebody has an agenda to discredit hunting.

[JWT]

It's not just an agenda to outlaw hunting (although PETA and a few other groups would love to do that too) it's an agenda to start outlawing ammunition by first getting rid of lead bullets. The anti gun crowd has had minimal success getting rid of firearms and this lead in game thing ranks up with the serial number coding on ammunition as a way to do away with the stuff that firearms need to function - ammunition.

What would we use to replace lead bullets?? Depleted uranium??

[simonkenton]

Have to replace 'em with copper.
But, copper is another heavy metal that can be toxic, it is not nearly as toxic as lead.

It makes expensive bullets.

[Toxdoc]

Pardon the first post, but this thread encouraged me to register. I'm a toxicologist who actually started shooting this January. I just purchased my second pistol last week

As I live in an area with lots of lead poisoning, lead is slowly becoming one of my areas of interest.

Even if you swallowed a teaspoon of bullet fragments the elemental lead it would pass unchanged from your body in 1-2 days without absorption.

This is simply not true. Lead is well absorbed when taken orally. Kids easily get encephalopathy from eating metallic lead. I've seen kids eat pieces lead and get profoundly toxic. It only takes a few hundred micrograms (which isn't a much lead) for a kid to get toxic and a few milligrams for and adult.

My concern is generally for women who may become pregnant as very low levels of lead exposures as acceptable amounts for an adult woman become unacceptable for a pregnancy woman and can cause developmental delay and neurologic impairment the child.

All that being said, it should be fairly easy to remove lead fragments if the meat is inspected and areas of concern are cut out. I would think that removing the bullet track would be enough. Personally, I'd love to shoot myself a deer as venison tastes goooooooood.

I hope this guy publishes his work, as I'd like to see the methodology and more importantly how he collected all the samples (ie, 1 butcher, multiple butchers, ammunition type, etc). Frankly, if 1/3rd of the commercially available venison in their area contains lead, they may need to rethink their meat processing practices. I would like to know how much lead they found in the samples and what happens in they subjected commercially available beef to the same scrutiny.

I suspect that if given opportunity, I'd use lead free bullets for hunting (I refuse to use lead only bullets at the range. They must be jacketed.) Banning lead bullets seems a bit extreme and I wait with interest to see what the Health Department's lead testing shows.

[44 AMP]

Fifty-three showed signs of the heavy metal.

I have to wonder what signs of the heavy metal are? Tattoos and long hair? Dropped D tuning?

Seriously, consider the language. "signs"? If you find the metal present in tiny amounts, you say "traces" of heavy metal. And if you are honest you give a concentration in some units of measure, usually ppm (parts per million).

"Signs" could be tissue disrupted by the bullet, without any actual bullet metal being present in the sample. Or it could be something else entirely. The point is that they do not say what it is they are defining as a "sign", and that alone strikes me as sinister.

Our givernment has (for many years now) standards of the amount of lead that is hazardous in tissue. If lead residue in venison were even remotely close to the legal limits, don't you think these people would be shouting that from the rooftops? Also consider that metallic lead (like the lead from a bullet) is very difficult for the body to absorb. The lead in our systems is absorbed from other chemical compounds containing lead, not from lead metal in bullets.

And, as one poster noted, the lead in gasoline fumes permiates our atmosphere. Might not tiny traces of lead in venison have come from that source as well? Too much is left unsaid for any valid conclusion to be drawn about the health hazard of eating venison killed by bullets. Perhaps another study, with a control group of deer not shot by bullets ought to be analyzed for comaprison.

[yettoblaster]

As a boy I bit down on a bird shot in a duck my father bagged.

Now I own guns.

I think THIS is what they're really afraid of!

[Toxdoc]

If you find the metal present in tiny amounts, you say "traces" of heavy metal. And if you are honest you give a concentration in some units of measure, usually ppm (parts per million)

The news report is a popular press article about what was done. The article is not trying to be scientifically rigorous. Hence why I'd like to see his methodology and I'd love to see exactly what was found in the deer. The average lead level has dropped significantly since lead was removed from gasoline. It would be pretty obvious if the serum levels were background or represent exposure. Per the press release ( http://www.health.state.nd.us/lead/v...%20Venison.pdf ) the health department found metallic lead. That would not be normal and could not be explained by environmental or even ingestion of lead.

[Our givernment has (for many years now) standards of the amount of lead that is hazardous in tissue.]

When it comes to food, most of the FDA's action has been from high risk sources, such as canned food, sugar, water and some other easily measured foods. Meat is not really considered a hazard, unless there is metallic contamination. Per the press release, all this venison was donated. Likely, this meat was not subject to FDA inspection.

Again, most likely, this reflects poor meat processing. With care and removal of meat surrounding the bullet's path, the lead should be essentially eliminated. However it does mean that a non-careful hunter can accidentally expose family members. The CDC blood testing shouldn't take too long, so the amount of exposure, if any, will be known.

BTW, the news reports say that the doctor who started the investigation is a hunter (whatever that means).

[RedneckFur]

I dont have a problem with all copper bullets being optional and available for hunting, but I'm 100% aposed to them being requried for hunting. Every deer I've ever eaten was killed with a bullet containing lead, and I turned out ok.

I agree with the Doctor posting here. If the bloodshot meat is removed, and any lead fragments found are cut out, the meat should be ok for consumption.

[Yithian]

These idiots are the same people that have floride added to city water supplies.
They brush their teeth at least once a day.

Hello!
knock, knock!
... Floride is toxic.

Heck, smoking a cigarette is far less toxic than swallowing toothpaste.

Big brother knows whats best again.
"Lead is bad, mm-kay."

[thallub]

Fears about lead in venison surfaced in March when a Bismarck, N.D., doctor contacted the North Dakota Health Department with concerns about lead fragments he found in ground deer meat. The doctor took X-rays of 95 ground venison samples from food shelves. Fifty-three showed signs of the heavy metal.

Just read the whole scoop in the most recent issue of North American Hunter. It seems that the resident expert in ND is one Dr. Cornatzer, a dermatologist. Seems like the good Dr. Corntazer is a member of the board of the Peregrine Fund, a "conservation" group that helped to get the lead shot/bullet ban passed in CA.

It's not just an agenda to outlaw hunting (although PETA and a few other groups would love to do that too) it's an agenda to start outlawing ammunition by first getting rid of lead bullets.

+1

[Art Eatman]

I don't remember if there was a thread here or at THR in March or maybe both.

I emailed the Wisconsin game folks and got a polite response that they were looking into the accuracy of the allegations. While I got no further feedback, I did see an article somewhere in the news that it wasn't a real problem.

IOW, AP is behind the times, as usual. Since most of their writers don't know anything about guns and hunting, it's not surprising that they give credence to idiotic claims.

The obvious question is, what mechanism moves lead fragments from the wound site to any other part of the animal?

I've "autopsied" a helluva lot of deer. It was really close to "never" that I found lead fragments in any of the edible meat. And I never, ever, had to spit out a fragment that somehow had been overlooked in the butchering.

[simonkenton]

The way the guy found "lead" was by xraying 95 packages of ground venison.
So he saw specks or spots on the x ray film which he inferred were lead.
It doesn't say that he dug through the packages and retrieved the suspected particles, and had them analyzed.

You couldn't tell a piece of a copper jacket from a piece of lead on an xray.
Or, there could have been other contamination in the burger, maybe there was a faulty grinding machine and some little flakes of zinc or steel came off of the grinder and got into the meat.

Sounds like bogus data from somebody with an agenda.

[Scorch]

The last report I read on this said that Iowa, Minnesota, and one other state has done extensive testing of packaged venison from their venison distribution programs, and found less than 1% of packages had detectable amounts of lead (talking parts per trillion here), and only 2 packages out of all the meat tested had levels of 1ppm (parts per million) of lead. South Dakota had already ordered the venison in their program to be destroyed, and the article did not say whether or not it had been destroyed before testing.

The doctor (a dermatologist) who published the South Dakota study has funding from the Peregrine Fund (the same folks who backed the CA lead bullet ban), and is a member of the board of that organization. There is some attempt to discredit the author and the publisher of the report, but the question still remains as to whether or not there is a health hazard in eating meat that may have bullet fragments in it.

I have no problem finding bullets and shot when I butcher my own, but whether or not a game processing facility would be as careful is a question that needs to be asked. I am sure we will hear a lot about this in the coming months.

Likely, this meat was not subject to FDA inspection.

Meat is never inspected by the FDA. The Meat and Poultry Inspection Act appoints the US Department of Agriculture (or appointees) as the inspecting authority. Some states have their own inspection laws.

[Pahoo]

Sadly the pendulum swings to another extreme. I use to repair and certify testing equipment and saw instruments that could find just about anything wrong with what was being tested. You certainly have to question some folk's agenda. I'll bet if you tried hard enough and had the proper test equipment, you could find lead in processed poltry, beef, pork and eggs. Problem is that once you bring this stuff out, you are accountable and responsible to do somethng about it. Next, they will perform Gas Chromatograph tests on all gun powder residue. Really hard to fight "Saftey or Love". How far do you go in protecting folks when we were all born with no guarantees. So sad !!


Be Safe !!!

[JP Sarte]

A good friend of mine Harry Morgan once said it best, "Horse Hockey"

JP

[Rembrandt]

There is some evidence that shows an increase of fragmented metals in game from states that allowed high power rifle. Speculation is high power bullets fragmented more than the shotgun slugs used in some states.




http://www.iowadnr.com/news/08apr/lead.html

Donated Venison Cleared for Distribution to Needy
Posted: April 1, 2008

DES MOINES — Food pantries in Iowa have been given approval to resume serving deer venison to the needy after sampling of the ground meat for lead indicated only trace amounts.

A total of 10 samples of ground venison from a food pantry were tested by the University of Iowa Hygienic Laboratory over the weekend. All 10 samples had less than 1 part per million of lead, eight had no detectable amounts and two had only trace amounts.

Distribution of venison donated to the food pantries by hunters was temporarily halted last week until the ground meat could be sampled for lead. More than 25,000 deer have been donated to hunger programs through the Department of Natural Resources (DNR)-administered HUSH (Help Us Stop Hunger) program in the last five years representing more than 4 million meal servings. HUSH is a cooperative effort among deer hunters, the Food Bank of Iowa, meat lockers and the Iowa DNR. The two main goals of HUSH include reducing the deer population while providing high-quality red meat to the needy in Iowa.

"Based on the samples that were analyzed and the extensive data currently available through blood testing of Iowans by our department, no additional tests of the venison are necessary," said Ken Sharp, director of the environmental health division of the Iowa Department of Public Health (IDPH).

“When we look at the results of this testing and the blood data that has been collected over the years, the venison provided through the HUSH program presents no recognized risk for lead exposure,” Sharp added.

Lead poisoning can cause significant health problems for young children and pregnant women. Lead-based paint is the leading cause of lead exposure for children. Since 1992, more than 500,000 Iowa children and more than 25,000 Iowa adults have been tested for lead poisoning. None of the cases of lead poisoning identified from this testing resulted from ingestion of venison, according to the IDPH.

Based on these results and Food and Drug Administration (FDA) established guidelines for daily lead intake, the IDPH states that people can safely consume the following amount of ground venison:

* Children under the age of 6 years: 2 four-ounce servings per week
* Pregnant women: 1 four-ounce serving per day
* All other adults: 3 four-ounce servings per day

If parents are concerned about their children’s exposure to lead in venison, they should ask their physician to test their children for lead poisoning, according to the IDPH.

Hunters with ground venison in their own freezers should consider the daily intake recommendations made by the IDPH based on the FDA established guidelines. How the meat was processed and what care was taken to clean the animal when it was harvested should be considered on other cuts of venison to determine the likelihood of lead being present.

Testing of the HUSH venison was prompted when North Dakota issued a press release last Wednesday urging food pantries across that state to not distribute or use donated ground venison through its hunter donation program after 53 of 95 packages detected metals through x-ray testing.

“This is a question we have never encountered before. We wanted to do the sampling so that we would have confidence that the venison is safe,” said Ross Harrison, coordinator of the HUSH program for DNR.

Harrison said he is pleased that distribution of the venison can now continue.

“One of Iowa’s most valuable natural resources is its deer herd. The HUSH program has been a perfect match of being able to utilize this resource in a positive way to help some of our most needy citizens,” said Harrison.

“This testing confirms what we have believed all along that donated venison can be a valuable contribution to the health of needy Iowans,” Harrison said.

For more information, contact Kevin Baskins at 515-249-2814.

[MeekAndMild]

This is simply not true. Lead is well absorbed when taken orally. Kids easily get encephalopathy from eating metallic lead. I've seen kids eat pieces lead and get profoundly toxic. It only takes a few hundred micrograms (which isn't a much lead) for a kid to get toxic and a few milligrams for and adult.

I'd agree for lead dust but not fragments... How did you rule out other sources of exposure?

I've seen nothing to contradict the idea that pediatric risk of lead dust, lead vapor and soluable lead salts exposure is orders of magnitude higher than that of fresh unoxidized solid fragments. The shooter's risk of exposure to lead dust and vapor (especially on indoor ranges using old style primers) is orders of magnitude higher than that found in eating an occasional fragment.

I'd challenge you to produce references regarding studies of ingested fragment exposure, controlled for the massive amount of lead dust, lead vapor and soluble lead exposure common to Western civilization.

General information for the rest of the readers:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/543500_print
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/TOPIC293.HTM
http://www.emedicine.com/med/TOPIC1269.HTM
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/414307_print
http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/perspect/lead.htm
http://www.haz-map.com/leadfact.htm

Rembrandt, public road rights of way are heavily contaminated by soluble lead residua from decades of gasoline use. Can you say that the lead found in deer carcasses is not related to grazing in contaminated areas?