...Why Judo is better than Karate - Page 2

Correia · August 17, 2001, 12:44 PM

I don't consider myself any kind of martial artist. I have trained for a few years, and I enjoy it, but I will be the first to admit that I don't know much.

But come on now. Size does matter. If the size is all they have, and they have no skill, or drive, or will then it probably doesn't matter. But if you put 2 fighters of equal skill and one of them weighs an extra 50 pounds, he will probably win.

My teacher used to say that the scariest thing you could fight were either very big men, or very fast men, but the scariest thing that you could ever fight was a fast big man.

-Larry Correia
Big & Slow

ATeaM · August 17, 2001, 04:35 PM

Dave, don't you know ANYTHING ?

Maaan...back when I was in highschool, and played Rugby/football sheeeeit...I could rip fools arms off like Chewbacca. I didn't need any of that ching chong China man stuff. Still don't. I 'd just hit the gym and get my yoke on,
then I'd ruck and maul for a couple hours each day. All those beers we drank after practice was all the training I'd ever need.

Yea, for sure dude.

witzig · August 20, 2001, 02:05 AM

Razors edge,you silly thing...
You think the UFC is a real test?
DO YOU KNOW WHY THE BIG MAN WINS IN UFC?BECAUSE THERE ARE RULES MAN!YOU BELIEVE THE HYPE ABOUT IT BEING FULL ON?
Open your eyes man.
The little person has no oppurtunity to use his stuff in UFC simply because he is not allowed to!
And you think all these Asian martial arts are rubbish?Wonder why you dont see Silat,Kuntao and stuff like this in UFC?Becuae they are lethal arts which emphasise dirty tricks and things that would have you kicked out in a second.
If you wish to see a real no holds barred fight,see if you can get to Russia and watch Spetsnaz troops being tested and graduate their H2H tests.Watch them put in the red square and beat up by 6 of their supperiors,all this after being marched,run and sprinted before hand to exhaust them.
Then tell me what you think of your fun little show,the UFC.

RazorsEdge · August 20, 2001, 09:57 AM

Mr. Witzig, if you reread my post CAREFULLY, you see that I aknowledge TWICE that the UFC has limitations, so I already made YOUR point. But I think that the UFC, particularly in its earliest form, offered a forum for all the BS artists to come out of the shadows and put up or shut up.

At a MINIMUM, the serious American martial arts community owes the UFC a debt for graphically demonstrating that, across the board, grappling skills had been greatly neglected.

I certainly agree that the UFC is not a real fight, but nothing seen on television is. Bottom line, for both ethical and financial reasons, nobody has any interest in seeing professional atheletes crippled. But the UFC remains a useful laboratory, if you know how to evaluate it.

In closing, I have yet to see any of those guys claiming to be ex-Spetsnaz win big in the UFC.

Dave3006 · August 20, 2001, 10:26 AM

RazorsEdge gets it. The UFC is not perfect. But, it is the closest you can get to real life without having people crippled for life.

If you think you are going to eye gouge and bite your way out of an armbar or choke, you are in la-la land. Fine, you may take a chunk out of me with a bite. But, it won't stop my armbar. It will just piss me off and make me hurt you more once you are defenseless. Also, I can bite and scratch too.

If the whole secret to these "deadly" combat arts is these dirty tricks, it seems like a huge waste of time. I knew how to bite and scratch when I was a kid.

Lastly, until you have actually bitten your way out of an armbar, what makes you think you can do it? I know my technique work because I test them against opponents who resist 100%.

MAGon · August 20, 2001, 12:07 PM

Dave 3006: I read through the whole thread before I saw the video. Going by the heat in some of the arguments, I thought the video would be something dead serious. It therefore had a double impact on me when I finally did see it. It was hilarious!!!

I darn near fell from my chair laughing!!! Good sense of humor, there, friend.
As to the thread, just my 2 cents worth: In my Shotokan dojo, during black belt only classes, full contact to the body is encouraged, no protective gear (Occasionally fist pads). Face contact is frowned upon, but it won't get you disqualified, you just have to deal with the consequences of a Dan rank opponent whose madder'n a wet hen!
I've been both the bigger and the smaller fella in more of these types of fights than I care to count. I have to agree that size and strength are the two most determining factors on the outcome of a fight, given two trained opponents of roughly the same level of skill. However, when the levels of skill are very disparate, technique wins out, provided that the more skilled opponent isn't a 90 lbs. stringbean!!

Dave3006 · August 20, 2001, 12:55 PM

I got my Shodan in Shotokan from Sensei Nishiyama. He trained with Funakoshi. I trained for 10 years in Shotokan. I am very familiar with the grueling, rough sparing classes. I agree, if the level of technique is really huge, the fight will not go to the ground. If the two fighters are even close to the same striking ability, it only takes one fighter to decide it will be a grappling fight. You have to be dramatically better than your opponent to dictate that it will be a standing only fight.

Shotokan was great. BJJ is fun. I am glad I have both set of tools in my arsenal.

witzig · August 21, 2001, 01:33 AM

Razors edge,
no,I dont agree that the UFC invited all the BS artists to come out to see if they are the real deal or not.
Please,do not forget,that there are differences in the studying of martial arts.People in UFC have a strong "Sport" orientation towards martial arts,people learning SELF DEFENSE and combat cannot compete adequately in the UFC atmosphere,they are just trained to finish a fight brutally and efficiently.
If rolling around the mat for 20 mins or so in the guard and other silly positions is efficient...?
So how then can you compare UFC to real world combat?
Of course the basis of these other arts I mentioned are just not dirty tricks!But you are taught how to destroy someone quickly and efficiently,things are refined and can be deadly.
If you think that I can simply bite my way out of an armbar...please dont think Iam so naieve..But a bite,scratch or something like this simply leads to a reaction,whatever it may be and you can work from there and get out of that "armbar"
Oh gees,I can imagine a Spetsnaz man in the UFC ring...
He would be put into prison for murder.
"what comrade!,Icannot do this and that!what is this type of fighting!!!???"
They dont need to dabble in this nonsense.

Dave3006 · August 21, 2001, 09:52 AM

The only reaction you would get from me if you were to bite me when I am doing an armbar would be that I would get pissed off, then break the other arm.

I remember Rickson saying after one class that he was glad that people learned all those other arts. It made things safer for those who knew how to really fight (grapple).

eyeball · August 21, 2001, 02:30 PM

witzig: no offense but what are you describing sounds like a whole bunch of mystical mumbo jumbo b.s.

maybe some martial arts company should hire you to write advertisements for them or something.

AdrenalineJunky · August 21, 2001, 05:44 PM

Grappling arts are superior to striking arts. My Thai training includes many strikes that are not allowed in ring bouts. I'm not in the proper shape to fight in the ring, but I have no doubts about my skills in a street fight.
------------------------
"Please,do not forget,that there are differences in the studying of martial arts.People in UFC have a strong "Sport" orientation towards martial arts,people learning SELF DEFENSE and combat cannot compete adequately in the UFC atmosphere,they are just trained to finish a fight brutally and efficiently. "
------------------------
I agree with that. People aren't always trained to compete. And those trained for competition, aren't always the best at defending themselves in a real fight. (If I'm reading that right.) It's sad to see a self acclaimed "martial arts expert" lose a fight to a moderately skilled boxer or wrestler. Most people think that it's just not supposed to happen. But it can, and easily, too.
-----------------------
"The only reaction you would get from me if you were to bite me when I am doing an armbar would be that I would get pissed off, then break the other arm. "
-----------------------
Dave, please don't take this as questioning your fighting ability, but being a master in every art known to man still wouldn't make you invincible. Okay, maybe biting won't deter you. But what happens when my friend cracks you in the head with a bottle? I mean, we are talking street fights here, right? If you're dazed long enough for me to get a good elbow into your adams apple and a push kick or a round kick to your knee, chances are, you won't be breathing or walking too well. Assuming my wits are about me, those two strikes should take little more than a second. Then, it's a totally different scenario.

If you think it won't happen, you could be right. But if you think it CAN'T happen, then you're just setting yourself up for something like that. Now, obviously this is completely hypothetical, and I'm not trying to make any assumptions about your skill vs. mine. I want to make that clear so I don't get a piissed off response. Anyone who has significant sparring experience has been accidentally poked in the eye, hit in the throat, kneed in the groin, or fell prey to a misplaced strike. Make no mistake, that shiit hurts! And, quite honestly, those are the kind of strikes an inexperienced fighter will make when they panic. There are simply too many factors involved in a street fight to predict an outcome. And when we panic, our basic, sometimes infantile, instincts take over. Sometimes those are the things that save our assses.

Spectre · August 21, 2001, 08:59 PM

WITZIG,

It sounds like you're ready to set up the first The Firing Line "unlimited" series matches. I'm ready.

I suggest only two rules:
No biting
No eye gouging

Anything else goes. Where are you, and what months work for you?

August 20, 2001, 02:05 AM	#28
witzig Junior Member Join Date: July 31, 2001 Posts: 10	UFC??? ha ha ha Razors edge,you silly thing... You think the UFC is a real test? DO YOU KNOW WHY THE BIG MAN WINS IN UFC?BECAUSE THERE ARE RULES MAN!YOU BELIEVE THE HYPE ABOUT IT BEING FULL ON? Open your eyes man. The little person has no oppurtunity to use his stuff in UFC simply because he is not allowed to! And you think all these Asian martial arts are rubbish?Wonder why you dont see Silat,Kuntao and stuff like this in UFC?Becuae they are lethal arts which emphasise dirty tricks and things that would have you kicked out in a second. If you wish to see a real no holds barred fight,see if you can get to Russia and watch Spetsnaz troops being tested and graduate their H2H tests.Watch them put in the red square and beat up by 6 of their supperiors,all this after being marched,run and sprinted before hand to exhaust them. Then tell me what you think of your fun little show,the UFC.

August 20, 2001, 09:57 AM	#29
RazorsEdge Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2001 Location: Dallas Posts: 207	Mr. Witzig, if you reread my post CAREFULLY, you see that I aknowledge TWICE that the UFC has limitations, so I already made YOUR point. But I think that the UFC, particularly in its earliest form, offered a forum for all the BS artists to come out of the shadows and put up or shut up. At a MINIMUM, the serious American martial arts community owes the UFC a debt for graphically demonstrating that, across the board, grappling skills had been greatly neglected. I certainly agree that the UFC is not a real fight, but nothing seen on television is. Bottom line, for both ethical and financial reasons, nobody has any interest in seeing professional atheletes crippled. But the UFC remains a useful laboratory, if you know how to evaluate it. In closing, I have yet to see any of those guys claiming to be ex-Spetsnaz win big in the UFC. __________________ Descretion is the better part of WhupAss

August 21, 2001, 01:33 AM	#33
witzig Junior Member Join Date: July 31, 2001 Posts: 10	Depends what? Razors edge, no,I dont agree that the UFC invited all the BS artists to come out to see if they are the real deal or not. Please,do not forget,that there are differences in the studying of martial arts.People in UFC have a strong "Sport" orientation towards martial arts,people learning SELF DEFENSE and combat cannot compete adequately in the UFC atmosphere,they are just trained to finish a fight brutally and efficiently. If rolling around the mat for 20 mins or so in the guard and other silly positions is efficient...? So how then can you compare UFC to real world combat? Of course the basis of these other arts I mentioned are just not dirty tricks!But you are taught how to destroy someone quickly and efficiently,things are refined and can be deadly. If you think that I can simply bite my way out of an armbar...please dont think Iam so naieve..But a bite,scratch or something like this simply leads to a reaction,whatever it may be and you can work from there and get out of that "armbar" Oh gees,I can imagine a Spetsnaz man in the UFC ring... He would be put into prison for murder. "what comrade!,Icannot do this and that!what is this type of fighting!!!???" They dont need to dabble in this nonsense.

August 21, 2001, 05:44 PM	#36
AdrenalineJunky Member Join Date: July 16, 2001 Location: Ukiah, CA Posts: 47	In My opinion... Grappling arts are superior to striking arts. My Thai training includes many strikes that are not allowed in ring bouts. I'm not in the proper shape to fight in the ring, but I have no doubts about my skills in a street fight. ------------------------ "Please,do not forget,that there are differences in the studying of martial arts.People in UFC have a strong "Sport" orientation towards martial arts,people learning SELF DEFENSE and combat cannot compete adequately in the UFC atmosphere,they are just trained to finish a fight brutally and efficiently. " ------------------------ I agree with that. People aren't always trained to compete. And those trained for competition, aren't always the best at defending themselves in a real fight. (If I'm reading that right.) It's sad to see a self acclaimed "martial arts expert" lose a fight to a moderately skilled boxer or wrestler. Most people think that it's just not supposed to happen. But it can, and easily, too. ----------------------- "The only reaction you would get from me if you were to bite me when I am doing an armbar would be that I would get pissed off, then break the other arm. " ----------------------- Dave, please don't take this as questioning your fighting ability, but being a master in every art known to man still wouldn't make you invincible. Okay, maybe biting won't deter you. But what happens when my friend cracks you in the head with a bottle? I mean, we are talking street fights here, right? If you're dazed long enough for me to get a good elbow into your adams apple and a push kick or a round kick to your knee, chances are, you won't be breathing or walking too well. Assuming my wits are about me, those two strikes should take little more than a second. Then, it's a totally different scenario. If you think it won't happen, you could be right. But if you think it CAN'T happen, then you're just setting yourself up for something like that. Now, obviously this is completely hypothetical, and I'm not trying to make any assumptions about your skill vs. mine. I want to make that clear so I don't get a piissed off response. Anyone who has significant sparring experience has been accidentally poked in the eye, hit in the throat, kneed in the groin, or fell prey to a misplaced strike. Make no mistake, that shiit hurts! And, quite honestly, those are the kind of strikes an inexperienced fighter will make when they panic. There are simply too many factors involved in a street fight to predict an outcome. And when we panic, our basic, sometimes infantile, instincts take over. Sometimes those are the things that save our assses. __________________ Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!

August 17, 2001, 12:44 PM	#26
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	I don't consider myself any kind of martial artist. I have trained for a few years, and I enjoy it, but I will be the first to admit that I don't know much. But come on now. Size does matter. If the size is all they have, and they have no skill, or drive, or will then it probably doesn't matter. But if you put 2 fighters of equal skill and one of them weighs an extra 50 pounds, he will probably win. My teacher used to say that the scariest thing you could fight were either very big men, or very fast men, but the scariest thing that you could ever fight was a fast big man. -Larry Correia Big & Slow

August 17, 2001, 04:35 PM	#27
ATeaM Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2001 Posts: 601	Dave, don't you know ANYTHING ? Maaan...back when I was in highschool, and played Rugby/football sheeeeit...I could rip fools arms off like Chewbacca. I didn't need any of that ching chong China man stuff. Still don't. I 'd just hit the gym and get my yoke on, then I'd ruck and maul for a couple hours each day. All those beers we drank after practice was all the training I'd ever need. Yea, for sure dude.

August 20, 2001, 10:26 AM	#30
Dave3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Lake Forest, CA USA Posts: 493	RazorsEdge gets it. The UFC is not perfect. But, it is the closest you can get to real life without having people crippled for life. If you think you are going to eye gouge and bite your way out of an armbar or choke, you are in la-la land. Fine, you may take a chunk out of me with a bite. But, it won't stop my armbar. It will just piss me off and make me hurt you more once you are defenseless. Also, I can bite and scratch too. If the whole secret to these "deadly" combat arts is these dirty tricks, it seems like a huge waste of time. I knew how to bite and scratch when I was a kid. Lastly, until you have actually bitten your way out of an armbar, what makes you think you can do it? I know my technique work because I test them against opponents who resist 100%.

August 20, 2001, 12:07 PM	#31
MAGon Member Join Date: June 25, 2001 Posts: 20	Dave 3006: I read through the whole thread before I saw the video. Going by the heat in some of the arguments, I thought the video would be something dead serious. It therefore had a double impact on me when I finally did see it. It was hilarious!!! I darn near fell from my chair laughing!!! Good sense of humor, there, friend. As to the thread, just my 2 cents worth: In my Shotokan dojo, during black belt only classes, full contact to the body is encouraged, no protective gear (Occasionally fist pads). Face contact is frowned upon, but it won't get you disqualified, you just have to deal with the consequences of a Dan rank opponent whose madder'n a wet hen! I've been both the bigger and the smaller fella in more of these types of fights than I care to count. I have to agree that size and strength are the two most determining factors on the outcome of a fight, given two trained opponents of roughly the same level of skill. However, when the levels of skill are very disparate, technique wins out, provided that the more skilled opponent isn't a 90 lbs. stringbean!!

August 20, 2001, 12:55 PM	#32
Dave3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Lake Forest, CA USA Posts: 493	I got my Shodan in Shotokan from Sensei Nishiyama. He trained with Funakoshi. I trained for 10 years in Shotokan. I am very familiar with the grueling, rough sparing classes. I agree, if the level of technique is really huge, the fight will not go to the ground. If the two fighters are even close to the same striking ability, it only takes one fighter to decide it will be a grappling fight. You have to be dramatically better than your opponent to dictate that it will be a standing only fight. Shotokan was great. BJJ is fun. I am glad I have both set of tools in my arsenal.

August 21, 2001, 09:52 AM	#34
Dave3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Lake Forest, CA USA Posts: 493	The only reaction you would get from me if you were to bite me when I am doing an armbar would be that I would get pissed off, then break the other arm. I remember Rickson saying after one class that he was glad that people learned all those other arts. It made things safer for those who knew how to really fight (grapple).

August 21, 2001, 02:30 PM	#35
eyeball Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2001 Posts: 84	witzig: no offense but what are you describing sounds like a whole bunch of mystical mumbo jumbo b.s. maybe some martial arts company should hire you to write advertisements for them or something.

August 21, 2001, 08:59 PM	#37
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	WITZIG, It sounds like you're ready to set up the first The Firing Line "unlimited" series matches. I'm ready. I suggest only two rules: No biting No eye gouging Anything else goes. Where are you, and what months work for you?