Depth of Penetration

the1mu · July 15, 2014, 09:32 PM

So, I'm attempting to take a different look (hopefully) at caliber wars.

I am trying to locate types of bullets (not caliber specific) that consistently penetrate to 16-18". It doesn't matter to me if it is .380 of .45 but preferably I am looking for data on hollow points.

I was hoping to find something similar to ballisticsbytheinch that covered this question (taking different brands/loads and documented penetration depth of each) but as it is, I am searching YouTube for videos that show ballistics gel and penetration. There is a ton of data to go through and it is taking a long time, so I was hoping someone else would have remembered similar data to this.

So far the only round that I have found that penetrates at 16" has been a .357 (hornady critical defense, I believe).

the1mu · July 15, 2014, 10:00 PM

This is what I'm looking for, however the amount of data seems limited and I am not really seeing much that gets to the 16-18" mark.

Hurryin' Hoosier · July 15, 2014, 10:13 PM

16"-18"? Durn. What do you plan to shoot, anyway?

jmr40 · July 15, 2014, 10:23 PM

I found the link you posted interesting and informative. As the link mentions, 16-18" of penetration is generally considered a bad thing. Not many loads will be designed to do so. Probably why you don't find many that do.

the1mu · July 15, 2014, 10:27 PM

Why is that? Doesn't the FBI recommend minimum of 12"? So, to me, it doesn't make sense to settle at 12 or even 14. Wouldn't 15 or 16 be a better middle ground? Most seem only to hit 13 maybe 14. It seems to err on the low side in my mind. Especially when we are talking so many unknowns-clothing, body size, angle, etc.

But I'm not really trying to debate my thoughts on it, but rather trying to establish whether it is there or not.

the1mu · July 15, 2014, 10:34 PM

The reason I'm asking this question is because of this study.

"It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.36"

**JohnKSa** · July 15, 2014, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Why is that? Doesn't the FBI recommend minimum of 12".

You have to take it in context. The FBI measures penetration using this protocol.

http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

The first thing you'll notice if you look through the testing process is that most of the testing involves the bullet first going through some kind of intermediate barrier before it hits the testing medium where penetration is measured. In other words, the unknowns you're worried about have already been taken into account.

If a self-defense loading meets the FBI spec, it's a plenty good choice for self-defense. There's no need to tack on another 4" of penetration to the minimum penetration figure they recommend.

Bezoar · July 15, 2014, 11:28 PM

if you want penetration everytime. purchase a .357 magnum. 4-6inch barrel. load it with 158 + grain jsp or jhp at a minimum 1200 fps.

the1mu · July 15, 2014, 11:33 PM

JohnKSa, I do understand it as much as I can since I'm not an expert and in my observation most barriers cause more penetration in jhp bullets (I believe due to the tendency for it not to expand and act more like an FMJ).

So then I think what I'm considering is more for the heavy clothing/bare gel scenarios for them to penetrate 14-16 consistently and to have a consistent expansion.

What I'm seeing throughout the above links is that the following are consistent in my mentioned areas: one round of 40 s&w, two 9's and two .45's.

More specifically, the 9mm 147gr ranger bonded and hornady XTp CQ; the 40s&w 155gr Barnes TAC-XP; and .45 185gr barnes TAC-XP & XPB (difference between these two is a trade off in diameter or depth-but both are 14-16).

Webleymkv · July 16, 2014, 01:35 AM

If deep penetration and expansion is what you want, that's fairly easy to get if you know what cartridges to look at. Most magnum-class cartridges from .41 Magnum and up can give you both expansion and 16+" of penetration so long as too light and/or fragile a bullet isn't used. A bonded or "controlled expansion" JHP like Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Platinum Tip, or Hornady XTP should be more that capable of giving you the desired result in .41 Magnum or bigger.

Like others, however, I rather doubt the usefulness of such a deep penetrating loading outside of hunting. There are a few problems with a defensive loading which penetrates in excess of 16-18". The first issue is that the risk of overpenetration is increased. You see, even the FBI minimum of 12" is enough to be a through and through shot if we assume a small-to average sized adult male, a straight-on frontal shot to the upper torso, and no intermediate barriers. Because we don't really need, or even necessarily want through and through penetration, the 12+" standard is really more than what is necessary for many, if not most, situations. The reason that 12" was arrived at as the minimum is to compensate for an extremely large individual, a shot at an oblique angle, and/or intermediate barriers. The thought is that even though we really don't want through and through penetration, it's still better than underpenetration.

That being said, a cartridge which falls within the 12-16" penetration range will shed a great deal of velocity going through someone. Even if it does pass completely through, its velocity coming out the other side will most likely be reduced to the point that the risk to bystanders, while not completely eliminated, will be greatly reduced. A bullet which penetrates 18+", on the other hand, almost guarantees through and through penetration of unarmored targets and will very likely plow on through with enough retained velocity to still pose a significant risk to bystanders.

The other problem is that handgun bullets which penetrate this deeply often display very moderate expansion and/or expand much less rapidly. A JHP handgun bullet which routinely penetrates 18+" in ballistic gel will likely not expand at all or expand very little in an average erect biped. What we really want in a defensive handgun bullet is one that expands as rapidly and violently as possible without sacrificing adequate (12+") penetration. A bullet which is only beginning to expand as it leaves the target is only slightly better than one which does not expand at all. If all you want is through and through penetration without regard to expansion, just about any caliber from .32 Auto up can pretty much guarantee it with FMJ or other non-expanding bullets.

Finally, a perhaps most significantly, the cartridges which are most capable of providing the performance you describe are usually very large, powerful cartridges that come in big, heavy guns and generate a lot of flash, blast, and recoil. While there are certainly people who can do it, someone who can shoot a full-power .41 or .44 Magnum, much less something bigger, both quickly and accurately is somewhat rare. I am a fairly large person (6'4" and 285 lbs) and an all-steel, large frame .44 Magnum is the very upper limit of what I can shoot with what I consider adequate speed and accuracy, and even then only with mild-to-moderate power loadings and carefully selected grips which fit my hands well. For the majority of people, a full-power .357 Magnum or 10mm Auto from a medium-to-large frame all steel handgun is probably the upper limit, and a more moderate "service" cartridge like .38 Special, 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .44 Special, or .45 ACP will generally be an even better choice. Quite simply, a big, powerful gun isn't useful if it's too much for the shooter to handle.

tipoc · July 16, 2014, 01:36 AM

You can also drop by here...

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html

tipoc

mes228 · July 16, 2014, 05:58 AM

I'm no expert, did not read the Study on penetration. However, I do have an opinion on penetration based on life long hunting and taking of game. My opinion is penetration kills. All the other measures of ballistic performance may be important - but it is penetration that kills. Ballistic info is not the whole picture. I'll illustrate this with the story below.

At about 16 years of age (I'm now 64) I had a girl friend from a wealthy family. For Christmas she gifted me a Ruger Single Six in .22 Magnum. I lived on a farm and did not at that time pay much attention to game laws (I do now and have for almost all my life). I carried that pistol and if an animal "got up" and hesitated for a moment, I shot it. I've killed groundhogs, crows, rabbits, grouse, bobcat, deer, etc.etc. Quiet literally pretty much, EVERY ANIMAL IN VIRGINIA EXCEPT A BLACK BEAR. All the ballistics on the .22 magnum shows it to be a wimpy cartridge. BUT IT DOES HAVE PENETRATION AND LOTS OF IT. Anything penetrating in the right spot is deadly. If I could only choose one parameter in ammo ballistics - I'd choose penetration. You have nothing without it. Just my opinion, but it's based on having been there and done that.

saleen322 · July 16, 2014, 08:05 AM

Here is a link to a good (and short) read that should answer a lot of your questions. It is the second article on the page. Hope this helps.

Quote:

As a rule-of-thumb guideline, sectional density can be used estimate and compare penetration performance. Bullets of similar sectional densities, propelled at similar velocities, and exhibiting similar percentages of expansion tend to penetrate to similar depths....

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...umber1/toc.htm

kraigwy · July 16, 2014, 08:27 AM

As a LEO in Alaska I had to put down several moose after being injured in vehicle moose accidents.

I've found the 158 LSWC worked best in the penetration department. Jackets hollow points not so much, I love the 45 but it sucks compared to the 158 LSWC in the penetration department.

Not in the game any more, I'm fine with the same LSWC in my 642 in the penetration department. I have had to dispatch wounded deer and even put down horses using the LSWC in the 2 in J-frame.

To be honest, I don't really use the 158's, the bullet I used in LE and now is the Lyman 358477 which is actually a 150 gr. LSWC.

skoro · July 16, 2014, 10:22 AM

Quote:

I am trying to locate types of bullets (not caliber specific) that consistently penetrate to 16-18"

Sounds like you need some hardcast wadcutters or semiwadcutters in 38+P. Lotsa penetration, probably well in excess of 18", but no expansion.

Hurryin' Hoosier · July 16, 2014, 12:23 PM

If you're really hung up on the idea of "penetration", get a Tokarev (suggestably a Zastava M57) or a Česká Zbrojovka vz.52 pistol, both of which are chambered for the 7.62x25 Tokarev round and a box of Sellier & Bellot or Prvi Partizan FMJ. Those things will go through the first guy plus the two standing behind him.

marine6680 · July 16, 2014, 12:42 PM

While 12 is the minimum... I like to find a round that beats that regularly.

I like if the rounds fall around 14-15 inches, that way I have a reasonable assurance that even an anomalous result at least meets the 12 inch minimum or will not go past 18 inches.

In the end its all about averages and consistency. Not too much or too little and little deviation between test results.

I have seen tests where several shots all fall within an inch in total penetration. And I have seen tests where there is a much larger variance... Some may even fall short or go long.

Inconsistent results suggests to me a design that is not well done.

Bezoar · July 16, 2014, 01:35 PM

i fyou want youtube proof, there is a nice test of the barnes vortex 140 grain jhp in 357 coming out of a sp101 with a short barrel, it went over 2 feet

RX-79G · July 16, 2014, 01:57 PM

I think there is some context missing, here.

The FBI tests are starting with the assumption that the load being tested is standard law enforcement caliber or something in that same class. They are then looking for versions of that caliber that are powerful enough to penetrate deeply and have a bullet design that expands but holds together sufficiently to reach that depth.

Something like .40 only has so much energy to deliver to the target. These tests are trying to find loads that convert that energy into incapacitating tissue damage, and they have found that the most incapacitating damage occurs when the bullet expands and goes fairly deep.

A .40 that doesn't expand but goes 30" is not going to pass their protocol. A .40 that expands and stops in 4" is also not going to pass. Both loads failed to make the long, wide wound channel they are looking for. For something like .40, getting the right kind of wound is a balancing act that is mostly based on hollow point design, not power. There is only so much power you can get out of .40.

You can get much more power out of something like .44 Mag, but .44 Mag is not an appropriate duty cartridge, so it falls outside the context of the test protocol. A .223 FMJ is also likely to be far more lethal than this protocol would suppose, but it is also well outside the assumptions needed for this test.

This is just a system to look for the duty pistol loads that best balance penetration and expansion. Using them as a universal terminal ballistics guide is a mistake.

**JohnKSa** · July 16, 2014, 10:48 PM

Quote:

...in my observation most barriers cause more penetration in jhp bullets...

With modern, premium self-defense ammunition, it's hard to come up with a rule of thumb that works well enough to be useful.

Here are some results from applying the FBI protocol.

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site...tion-Guide.pdf

jason_iowa · July 17, 2014, 01:05 AM

The 185grain jhps 45acp +p+ I shoot out of my 625 close to 1300 fps go clean through dead pigs and expand to over .9 inches. 18+in penetration easy. I have some 255 grain hard cast that will do even better.

Brotherbadger · July 17, 2014, 02:48 AM

Quote:

16"-18"? Durn. What do you plan to shoot, anyway?

Protection against roaming gangs of Sumo Wrestlers.

jason_iowa · July 17, 2014, 05:16 AM

The best way to take the fight out of someone is to put a big hole through and through someone. 12in just is not going to cut it. I want a good 20 inches so I can go through and through shoulder to shoulder.

45_auto · July 17, 2014, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason iowa

The best way to take the fight out of someone is to put a big hole through and through someone.

Interesting theory. Any studies, tests, or practical experience to back up your assumptions?

I would think it should be pretty obvious that penetration is a trade-off for less expansion. Do you envision semi-wadcutter or ball ammo as the ultimate way to "take the fight out of someone"? Do you see yourself as one of the few capable of realizing that those millions of dollars spent on improving hollowpoint ammo in the last 50 years were totally wasted?

Colt46 · July 17, 2014, 09:05 AM

Hard cast bullets are your best bet. The is a group that gathers at "The Linebaugh Seminar" that participate in bullet penetration tests in wet newspaper. There are some loads that feature 3-4 FEET of penetration. We are talking max loads, heavy bullets, and heavy framed revolvers. The event is some kind of pilgrimage to hand gunners.

July 15, 2014, 09:32 PM	#1
the1mu Member Join Date: August 7, 2013 Posts: 53	Depth of Penetration So, I'm attempting to take a different look (hopefully) at caliber wars. I am trying to locate types of bullets (not caliber specific) that consistently penetrate to 16-18". It doesn't matter to me if it is .380 of .45 but preferably I am looking for data on hollow points. I was hoping to find something similar to ballisticsbytheinch that covered this question (taking different brands/loads and documented penetration depth of each) but as it is, I am searching YouTube for videos that show ballistics gel and penetration. There is a ton of data to go through and it is taking a long time, so I was hoping someone else would have remembered similar data to this. So far the only round that I have found that penetrates at 16" has been a .357 (hornady critical defense, I believe). __________________ "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". -Benjamin Franklin

July 15, 2014, 10:00 PM	#2
the1mu Member Join Date: August 7, 2013 Posts: 53	This is what I'm looking for, however the amount of data seems limited and I am not really seeing much that gets to the 16-18" mark. __________________ "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". -Benjamin Franklin

July 15, 2014, 10:27 PM	#5
the1mu Member Join Date: August 7, 2013 Posts: 53	Why is that? Doesn't the FBI recommend minimum of 12"? So, to me, it doesn't make sense to settle at 12 or even 14. Wouldn't 15 or 16 be a better middle ground? Most seem only to hit 13 maybe 14. It seems to err on the low side in my mind. Especially when we are talking so many unknowns-clothing, body size, angle, etc. But I'm not really trying to debate my thoughts on it, but rather trying to establish whether it is there or not. __________________ "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". -Benjamin Franklin

July 15, 2014, 10:34 PM	#6
the1mu Member Join Date: August 7, 2013 Posts: 53	The reason I'm asking this question is because of this study. "It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.36" __________________ "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". -Benjamin Franklin

July 15, 2014, 11:33 PM	#9
the1mu Member Join Date: August 7, 2013 Posts: 53	JohnKSa, I do understand it as much as I can since I'm not an expert and in my observation most barriers cause more penetration in jhp bullets (I believe due to the tendency for it not to expand and act more like an FMJ). So then I think what I'm considering is more for the heavy clothing/bare gel scenarios for them to penetrate 14-16 consistently and to have a consistent expansion. What I'm seeing throughout the above links is that the following are consistent in my mentioned areas: one round of 40 s&w, two 9's and two .45's. More specifically, the 9mm 147gr ranger bonded and hornady XTp CQ; the 40s&w 155gr Barnes TAC-XP; and .45 185gr barnes TAC-XP & XPB (difference between these two is a trade off in diameter or depth-but both are 14-16). __________________ "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". -Benjamin Franklin Last edited by the1mu; July 16, 2014 at 12:15 AM.

July 15, 2014, 10:13 PM	#3
Hurryin' Hoosier Member Join Date: March 1, 2012 Location: Columbus, Indiana Posts: 98	16"-18"? Durn. What do you plan to shoot, anyway?

July 15, 2014, 10:23 PM	#4
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	I found the link you posted interesting and informative. As the link mentions, 16-18" of penetration is generally considered a bad thing. Not many loads will be designed to do so. Probably why you don't find many that do.

July 15, 2014, 11:28 PM	#8
Bezoar Junior member Join Date: October 19, 2004 Location: michigan Posts: 578	if you want penetration everytime. purchase a .357 magnum. 4-6inch barrel. load it with 158 + grain jsp or jhp at a minimum 1200 fps.

July 16, 2014, 01:35 AM	#10
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	If deep penetration and expansion is what you want, that's fairly easy to get if you know what cartridges to look at. Most magnum-class cartridges from .41 Magnum and up can give you both expansion and 16+" of penetration so long as too light and/or fragile a bullet isn't used. A bonded or "controlled expansion" JHP like Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Platinum Tip, or Hornady XTP should be more that capable of giving you the desired result in .41 Magnum or bigger. Like others, however, I rather doubt the usefulness of such a deep penetrating loading outside of hunting. There are a few problems with a defensive loading which penetrates in excess of 16-18". The first issue is that the risk of overpenetration is increased. You see, even the FBI minimum of 12" is enough to be a through and through shot if we assume a small-to average sized adult male, a straight-on frontal shot to the upper torso, and no intermediate barriers. Because we don't really need, or even necessarily want through and through penetration, the 12+" standard is really more than what is necessary for many, if not most, situations. The reason that 12" was arrived at as the minimum is to compensate for an extremely large individual, a shot at an oblique angle, and/or intermediate barriers. The thought is that even though we really don't want through and through penetration, it's still better than underpenetration. That being said, a cartridge which falls within the 12-16" penetration range will shed a great deal of velocity going through someone. Even if it does pass completely through, its velocity coming out the other side will most likely be reduced to the point that the risk to bystanders, while not completely eliminated, will be greatly reduced. A bullet which penetrates 18+", on the other hand, almost guarantees through and through penetration of unarmored targets and will very likely plow on through with enough retained velocity to still pose a significant risk to bystanders. The other problem is that handgun bullets which penetrate this deeply often display very moderate expansion and/or expand much less rapidly. A JHP handgun bullet which routinely penetrates 18+" in ballistic gel will likely not expand at all or expand very little in an average erect biped. What we really want in a defensive handgun bullet is one that expands as rapidly and violently as possible without sacrificing adequate (12+") penetration. A bullet which is only beginning to expand as it leaves the target is only slightly better than one which does not expand at all. If all you want is through and through penetration without regard to expansion, just about any caliber from .32 Auto up can pretty much guarantee it with FMJ or other non-expanding bullets. Finally, a perhaps most significantly, the cartridges which are most capable of providing the performance you describe are usually very large, powerful cartridges that come in big, heavy guns and generate a lot of flash, blast, and recoil. While there are certainly people who can do it, someone who can shoot a full-power .41 or .44 Magnum, much less something bigger, both quickly and accurately is somewhat rare. I am a fairly large person (6'4" and 285 lbs) and an all-steel, large frame .44 Magnum is the very upper limit of what I can shoot with what I consider adequate speed and accuracy, and even then only with mild-to-moderate power loadings and carefully selected grips which fit my hands well. For the majority of people, a full-power .357 Magnum or 10mm Auto from a medium-to-large frame all steel handgun is probably the upper limit, and a more moderate "service" cartridge like .38 Special, 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .44 Special, or .45 ACP will generally be an even better choice. Quite simply, a big, powerful gun isn't useful if it's too much for the shooter to handle.

July 16, 2014, 01:36 AM	#11
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	You can also drop by here... http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html tipoc

July 16, 2014, 05:58 AM	#12
mes228 Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2005 Posts: 628	Penetration I'm no expert, did not read the Study on penetration. However, I do have an opinion on penetration based on life long hunting and taking of game. My opinion is penetration kills. All the other measures of ballistic performance may be important - but it is penetration that kills. Ballistic info is not the whole picture. I'll illustrate this with the story below. At about 16 years of age (I'm now 64) I had a girl friend from a wealthy family. For Christmas she gifted me a Ruger Single Six in .22 Magnum. I lived on a farm and did not at that time pay much attention to game laws (I do now and have for almost all my life). I carried that pistol and if an animal "got up" and hesitated for a moment, I shot it. I've killed groundhogs, crows, rabbits, grouse, bobcat, deer, etc.etc. Quiet literally pretty much, EVERY ANIMAL IN VIRGINIA EXCEPT A BLACK BEAR. All the ballistics on the .22 magnum shows it to be a wimpy cartridge. BUT IT DOES HAVE PENETRATION AND LOTS OF IT. Anything penetrating in the right spot is deadly. If I could only choose one parameter in ammo ballistics - I'd choose penetration. You have nothing without it. Just my opinion, but it's based on having been there and done that.

July 16, 2014, 08:27 AM	#14
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	As a LEO in Alaska I had to put down several moose after being injured in vehicle moose accidents. I've found the 158 LSWC worked best in the penetration department. Jackets hollow points not so much, I love the 45 but it sucks compared to the 158 LSWC in the penetration department. Not in the game any more, I'm fine with the same LSWC in my 642 in the penetration department. I have had to dispatch wounded deer and even put down horses using the LSWC in the 2 in J-frame. To be honest, I don't really use the 158's, the bullet I used in LE and now is the Lyman 358477 which is actually a 150 gr. LSWC. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

July 16, 2014, 12:23 PM	#16
Hurryin' Hoosier Member Join Date: March 1, 2012 Location: Columbus, Indiana Posts: 98	If you're really hung up on the idea of "penetration", get a Tokarev (suggestably a Zastava M57) or a Česká Zbrojovka vz.52 pistol, both of which are chambered for the 7.62x25 Tokarev round and a box of Sellier & Bellot or Prvi Partizan FMJ. Those things will go through the first guy plus the two standing behind him.

July 16, 2014, 12:42 PM	#17
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	While 12 is the minimum... I like to find a round that beats that regularly. I like if the rounds fall around 14-15 inches, that way I have a reasonable assurance that even an anomalous result at least meets the 12 inch minimum or will not go past 18 inches. In the end its all about averages and consistency. Not too much or too little and little deviation between test results. I have seen tests where several shots all fall within an inch in total penetration. And I have seen tests where there is a much larger variance... Some may even fall short or go long. Inconsistent results suggests to me a design that is not well done.

July 16, 2014, 01:35 PM	#18
Bezoar Junior member Join Date: October 19, 2004 Location: michigan Posts: 578	i fyou want youtube proof, there is a nice test of the barnes vortex 140 grain jhp in 357 coming out of a sp101 with a short barrel, it went over 2 feet

July 16, 2014, 01:57 PM	#19
RX-79G Junior member Join Date: October 27, 2013 Posts: 1,139	I think there is some context missing, here. The FBI tests are starting with the assumption that the load being tested is standard law enforcement caliber or something in that same class. They are then looking for versions of that caliber that are powerful enough to penetrate deeply and have a bullet design that expands but holds together sufficiently to reach that depth. Something like .40 only has so much energy to deliver to the target. These tests are trying to find loads that convert that energy into incapacitating tissue damage, and they have found that the most incapacitating damage occurs when the bullet expands and goes fairly deep. A .40 that doesn't expand but goes 30" is not going to pass their protocol. A .40 that expands and stops in 4" is also not going to pass. Both loads failed to make the long, wide wound channel they are looking for. For something like .40, getting the right kind of wound is a balancing act that is mostly based on hollow point design, not power. There is only so much power you can get out of .40. You can get much more power out of something like .44 Mag, but .44 Mag is not an appropriate duty cartridge, so it falls outside the context of the test protocol. A .223 FMJ is also likely to be far more lethal than this protocol would suppose, but it is also well outside the assumptions needed for this test. This is just a system to look for the duty pistol loads that best balance penetration and expansion. Using them as a universal terminal ballistics guide is a mistake.

July 17, 2014, 01:05 AM	#21
jason_iowa Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 686	The 185grain jhps 45acp +p+ I shoot out of my 625 close to 1300 fps go clean through dead pigs and expand to over .9 inches. 18+in penetration easy. I have some 255 grain hard cast that will do even better.

July 17, 2014, 05:16 AM	#23
jason_iowa Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 686	The best way to take the fight out of someone is to put a big hole through and through someone. 12in just is not going to cut it. I want a good 20 inches so I can go through and through shoulder to shoulder.

July 17, 2014, 09:05 AM	#25
Colt46 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: Campbell Ca Posts: 1,090	Penetration in handguns Hard cast bullets are your best bet. The is a group that gathers at "The Linebaugh Seminar" that participate in bullet penetration tests in wet newspaper. There are some loads that feature 3-4 FEET of penetration. We are talking max loads, heavy bullets, and heavy framed revolvers. The event is some kind of pilgrimage to hand gunners.