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Old July 24, 2009, 08:33 PM   #26
Mas Ayoob
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To respond to a few of the comments in this thread...

Just as an educated guess, I suspect Terry Graham's total legal fees and costs were in the upper half of the five figure bracket, counting both representation up to the grand jury by Buck File, and the splendid defense he got from Tracy Crawford in the civil case.

The defense went to the expense of deposing critical witnesses including the plaintiff's expert, and this wise investment gave them very powerful ammunition that Crawford used to devastating effect at trial. By contrast, plaintiff's counsel did not bother to depose the defense experts.

Terry Graham having been the one who called in his own shooting, and told his side of it early, helped enormously to lead the investigators to the truth of the matter. His candid testimony in front of the grand jury helped them to realize that he should be no-billed. When you did the right thing, the truth will set you free. In the end, that was the story here.

I'm convinced that the shot Terry fired almost certainly saved his life, and the lives of the two eyewitnesses. The decisions of the grand jury on the criminal side in May '07, and of the civil jury last night, indicate that they agreed with this assessment after having seen and understood the facts in evidence.
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Old July 24, 2009, 09:07 PM   #27
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Oldmarksman,

Quote:
It does not, not at all. However, statements such as "first you have to make sure that the bad guy cannot testify against you....And best of all, no witnesses" could sure sound pretty bad to the charging authority, grand jury if there is one, and/or trial court jury. That could be the determining factor for the defendant.
That was a hypothetical situation. I am not advocating you shoot at all, that is your choice. You may choose to sit down and have coffee with the intruder, totally up to you.

Quote:
Think for a moment. If a shooter's claim were sufficient, how many homicides would ever be successfully prosecuted? Do you think "I feared for my life" will suffice?
Are you serious? You go from a home invasion and robbery to how many homicides would ever be prosecuted. Far reach, c'mon.

Quote:
In practice, however, the defense attorney has a great deal of work to do in order to convince the jurors that the client’s conduct fell within the common law of self-defense or within applicable state statutes.
Very true. But I also hope you do understand that shooting an intruder/robber in your own house is not far from falling withing applicable state statutues, at least in my state. All is needed is a scared ****less witness who claims self defense.

Quote:
There will be the forensic evidence, indicating, for example the distance at which the shots were taken, and perhaps witness testimony that does not seem to support the defendant's story. Hopefully, there will be no internet postings to the effect that a shooter would be better off with the decedent out of the way and unable to testify.
Now you're just being funny with a bit of paranoid. Don't you think that forensics and detectives have more important real crimes to investigate instead of a possible home invasion gone wrong? You have to be kidding, I hope.

There is no need for evidence unless it goes to trial.

The point I was trying to make is that if there is an intruder in my home, taking my stuff and possibly (I dont know whether he is) armed, you better believe that I am going to defend myself while being scared ****less.

And that is EXACTLY what I am going to tell the cops. Not an inch more. Where I live they won't be bringing David Caruso and the CSI trying their best to bring me, the criminal (in your mind), to justice. Nor will they be looking at my posts for premeditation of a random robbery. My state law allows use of deadly force in a situtation where I was afraid for my life, as I surely would have been in this HYPOTHETICAL situation.

Again, in this hypothetical situtation, the shooter didn't pick up a drunk vagabond and drove him to his house for the sole purpose of shooting him. This was a real, not staged, random (hyothetitcal) home invasion. Like the one that started this thread.

Last edited by stija; July 24, 2009 at 09:16 PM.
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Old July 24, 2009, 09:44 PM   #28
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Yes I read today about the not guilty verdict. Glad Graham is free. Terrible what it cost him to keep his freedom but he is still free.

Did any of you guys read about the counties 'CSI' investigation of the shooting and their 'tire track' evidence?

Get the latest issue of Popular Mechanics and see what they have to say about the science of 'CSI'.

And notice guys, one may have a fancy riot shotgun, all stolked out with gear, but Graham used a single shot, aimed strait, and stopped the attacker. I bet the single shot didn't cost $80 bucks.
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Old July 24, 2009, 10:04 PM   #29
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That was a hypothetical situation. I am not advocating you shoot at all, that is your choice. You may choose to sit down and have coffee with the intruder, totally up to you.
The fact that it is hypothetical doesn't change the fact that your statement is antithetical to the basic concept of legal self-defense.

Legal self-defense is completely unconcerned with the prognosis of the attacker, it is exclusively about preventing the injury or death of the defended. If the defender is trying to "make sure that the bad guy cannot testify against him" then his focus is not in accord with the law. The death of the attacker may be a legal CONSEQUENCE of the use of deadly force in self defense but it can not be the GOAL.

So, NO, you do NOT set a goal of "making sure that the bad guy cannot testify against you". That is not a legal justification for the use of deadly force. You will never find any law that justifies the use of deadly force to prevent the testimony of the attacker.

In plain and simple terms, if you shoot someone to "make sure ...(he)... cannot testify against you" then you have committed murder or attempted murder depending on the outcome.
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Old July 24, 2009, 11:21 PM   #30
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I agree 100% with that. I never stated that killing someone in order to prevent his testimony is legal or justified.

Those are your presumptions.
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Old July 25, 2009, 01:20 AM   #31
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Mas, actually I have since learned another thread on here that some insurance carriers WILL cover you for CIVIL costs associated with legal shootings. However, generally that is contained in the Umbrella policy. My carrier is USAA and they WOULD cover me (I asked) thru the umbrella for only the civil suit. They also cover slander and liable.
I think you misunderstood Mr. Ayoob's response. He is referring to two different types of torts (civil wrongs) - one is of negligence or omission (ie, an accidental shooting), which *some* insurance carriers will cover, and the other is of a willful or intentional tort, which is what the plaintiffs in this case claimed.

In the latter, I'm not aware of any insurance carriers who will cover the insured against a willful tort.

This is why you very frequently see civil actions where the plaintiffs make very unusual - sometimes extremely so - arguments alleging the defendent negligently or accidentally discharged the firearm. That is because they seek to recover any potential damages from the insurance carrier, not the defendent, who may otherwise have nothing to recover against.
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Old July 25, 2009, 01:48 AM   #32
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I never stated that killing someone in order to prevent his testimony is legal or justified.
To be clear, I haven't claimed that you said it was legal or justified. I merely pointed out that what you said should be done was not legal or justified.

Getting right to the heart of the matter--advocating illegal activity is unacceptable on TFL and trying to dodge the issue by making it "hypothetical" doesn't change anything.
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Old July 25, 2009, 07:34 AM   #33
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Quote:
But I also hope you do understand that shooting an intruder/robber in your own house is not far from falling withing applicable state statutues, at least in my state.
Well, yeah, but the OP concerned a shooting that occurred after the intruder had left the house.

Quote:
All is needed is a scared ****less witness who claims self defense.
Yes, in many states, the fact of an unlawful break in, forcible in some cases, and in some jurisdictions even the fact of an attempt at breaking in, provide a legal presumption (rebuttable, mind you) that the person occupying the structure had reason to believe that he or she was in such imminent danger that deadly force is justified.

However, as soon as the invader leaves the structure, that presumption disappears.

Quote:
There is no need for evidence unless it goes to trial.
Come again? It is evidence that will determine whether it goes to trial.

Quote:
Now you're just being funny with a bit of paranoid. Don't you think that forensics and detectives have more important real crimes to investigate instead of a possible home invasion gone wrong? You have to be kidding, I hope.
No, I'm not kidding at all, and it is clear to me that you have not absorbed any of the discussion contained in the NACDL document I provided.

They have to determine whether it was in fact a "real" crime!

Now, in the case of a shooting of someone who has forcibly and unlawfully entered the occupied domicile of another, the investigation should be rather straight forward--unless, of course, the perp had already taken off.

You are, of course, aware that in the criminal case cited by the OP, the shooter acted under Texas Code 9.42, which has to do with the protection or recovery of tangible, movable property, and did not mount a self-defense claim. No where else in the country would that work.

Go back and read the document, and here's something else worth studying:

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...2_StudyDay.htm
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Old July 25, 2009, 09:45 AM   #34
Mas Ayoob
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This was not a strict "shoot to protect property" incident, despite the plaintiff's unsuccessful attempts to make it appear so.

At the time of his death, Josh Chambers had two loaded, stolen pistols in his possession in the front seat of his vehicle. He had been seen by two of the witnesses to make a furtive reach toward the bag containing those pistols as he moved from the house to his vehicle. He was now accelerating his vehicle toward Mr. Graham. All three witnesses stated that at the last moment, Graham stepped to the side to escape being hit and almost simultaneously fired the single shot, which passed through the open driver's window and killed Chambers. Distance was four feet, from muzzle to head. Evidence at the scene confirms this unanimous account.

It was a shooting in defense of life.
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Old July 25, 2009, 09:49 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmsss
I think you misunderstood Mr. Ayoob's response.
No, I understood it perfectly. BTW I sold P&C insurance of for three years and I know what intentional acts are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by csmsss
In the latter, I'm not aware of any insurance carriers who will cover the insured against a willful tort.
As I stated in my earlier post USAA does in fact do such through an Umbrella Policy. In another thread here:http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...70&postcount=6 a poster tells us that State Farm will do such as well. During that thread I called USAA and they will cover non-criminal defense of wrongful death cases if the shooting is deemed non-criminal. In fact my policy specifically covers slander and liable as well which are both intentional acts.
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Old July 25, 2009, 11:43 AM   #36
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This was not a strict "shoot to protect property" incident, despite the plaintiff's unsuccessful attempts to make it appear so. .... It was a shooting in defense of life.
So I presumed, Mas, from your prior note.

My thought, and you can correct this, was that the so called "Castle Doctrine" did not apply because the decedent had already left the house. Ordinarily, in most places that means the property owner or tenant cannot invoke the castle doctrine in claiming self defense. Where I live in Missouri, I have no business going out after an intruder who has departed, or so I understand.

However, in Texas, one may attempt to use force, even deadly force, to recover property. If, in the course of that lawful pursuit, the perp attacks the homeowner or tenant, it becomes a defense of life situation...or so I assumed from the news articles and from your post.

Comments?
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Old July 25, 2009, 12:25 PM   #37
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Quote:
Graham stepped to the side to escape being hit and almost simultaneously fired the single shot, which passed through the open driver's window and killed Chambers. Distance was four feet, from muzzle to head.
I wonder at what point this would no longer be "defensive". If the defender is out of the way of the vehicle and the vehicle continues without endangering the person then it would very soon no longer be a defensive shooting.

Making no claim as to this particular case one way or the other, just saying that it seems like mere fractions of a second from being no longer defensive.
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Old July 25, 2009, 12:30 PM   #38
Mas Ayoob
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Old Marksman, FWIW my interpretation of Texas law on this is the same as yours.

Castle Doctrine generally extends to house and curtilege, i.e., adjacent outbuildings. The decedent was inside when the homeowner came home from church, saw the unfamiliar car, and called his foreman who lived nearby. The two were approaching the home when the decedent emerged with the bag and ignored orders to stop. He then jumped in the car and drove straight at the homeowner, who jumped to the side and fired.

At no time did the homeowner pursue.

Texas' rescinding of the retreat requirement was passed into law a few months after this shooting, and therefore did not apply. However, safe retreat had not been possible under the circumstances anyway.
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Old July 25, 2009, 12:54 PM   #39
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Quote:
This was not a strict "shoot to protect property" incident, despite the plaintiff's unsuccessful attempts to make it appear so.

Mas Ayoob, thanks for the rest of the story. I'm surprised that the judge let this civil case go to trial.
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Old July 25, 2009, 03:57 PM   #40
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I'm surprised that the judge let this civil case go to trial.
A judge has no authority to stop a civil action, anyone can be sued for anything at any time.
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Old July 25, 2009, 04:24 PM   #41
stija
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Getting right to the heart of the matter--advocating illegal activity is unacceptable on TFL and trying to dodge the issue by making it "hypothetical" doesn't change anything.
Pardon me?

You must refer to my "you must make sure the other guy cannot testify against you" statement?

Assuming so, are you saying that walking up to the truck, after shooting a few rounds into the robber, and checking for pulse to make sure he's alive/dead is illegal? Of course if dead, he cannot testify against you so it is only your word.

Again, it is your presumptions that get the better of you. Unless of course the above is illegal.

Last edited by stija; July 25, 2009 at 04:34 PM. Reason: added
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Old July 25, 2009, 06:04 PM   #42
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Of course if dead, he cannot testify against you so it is only your word.
You could not possibly be more wrong. It is not just "your word" in any event. There will be an investigation and "your" word may not mean squat.

And as for your advocacy of an illegal activity, I agree, it is completely out of line, then to try and spin it as a "hypothetical" after the fact? Sorry Sir, but you have no credibility with me due to that.
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Old July 25, 2009, 06:39 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by stija
Of course if dead, he cannot testify against you so it is only your word.
Tell that to Harold Fish
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Old July 25, 2009, 06:46 PM   #44
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I also bet that "your word" will get hammered by the DA and your "written statements" will get thrashed. If you choose to get on the stand, you better hope you did yer homework in high school civics and debate team or yer gonna get hacked to bits on "cross"... It is rarely just "your word". 3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead comes to mind as witnesses could be involved... Even when you don't know they are there. I was taught by some wise, if not very nefarious organized criminals... "The night has a thousand eyes..."
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Old July 25, 2009, 06:51 PM   #45
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Quote:
...then to try and spin it as a "hypothetical" after the fact?
I am not trying to spin anything. It is your emotions and presumptions that are doing it.

Please quote the illegal activity I advocated? Please go ahead.

The mere statement "I am gonna go to Mars tonight" may sound looney if taken out of contest. But for all you know, there may be a bar called Mars in my neighborhood.

If you keep stating I advocated an illegal activity please refer to it or drop it altogether.
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Old July 25, 2009, 06:59 PM   #46
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The shooter's state of mind--mens rea.
So the shooter had a criminal intent?
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Old July 25, 2009, 07:01 PM   #47
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Ok, Stija, how about...

... your original statement:

First you have to make sure that the bad guy cannot testify against you.

That sounds like you are advocating making sure the bad buy expires, as opposed to making the threat cease. Those are not the same, morally or legally. I don't think a coup de grace is legal anywhere in the US, so it seems you were advocating an illegal and unethical approach.

The rest of that post confirms that you knew exactly what you were implying, including the caveat you put at the end.

Since then, your argument that you said nothing untoward has been disingenuous and silly.
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Old July 25, 2009, 07:23 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stija
Please quote the illegal activity I advocated? Please go ahead.
You get one short post to either state plainly that you will no longer advocate illegal activity on TFL or CLEARLY and CONCISELY explain exactly how this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by stija
First you have to make sure that the bad guy cannot testify against you.
is not advocating illegal activity.
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Old July 25, 2009, 07:58 PM   #49
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tick, tick, tick . . . boy he must really be trying hard to make it concise, and to the point.
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Old July 25, 2009, 09:06 PM   #50
stija
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by stija
Please quote the illegal activity I advocated? Please go ahead.

Quote:
You get one short post to either state plainly that you will no longer advocate illegal activity on TFL or CLEARLY and CONCISELY explain exactly how this:
I succinctly explained on multiple occasions exactly what I meant.

So..I am going to tell you, as I would to a prosecutor, to please refer to my previous testimony/explanations/statements. They were politely provided for you on at least 2 occasions which you ignored and continue to make your presumptuous accusations.

Quote:
MLeake said: That sounds like.....
It sounds to you.

Quote:
JohnKSa said: I merely pointed out that what you said should be done was not legal or justified.
How is it illegal to make sure the intruder is expired and cannot testify before giving your testimony illegal?

Last edited by stija; July 25, 2009 at 09:13 PM.
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