Best Shell for Home Defense? - Page 3

Rampant_Colt · July 14, 2010, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksmoker

I recently took a course on Response to home invasion, the instructors both loaded the first two with heavy bird shot loads followed by all the 00 that it takes to stop the threat.LE here uses a low recoil 00, they all speak well of it

I'd get yer money back, 'cause that's some lousy advice

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maromero

He is. And stop calling him Shirley.

LoL

hogdogs · July 14, 2010, 08:26 PM

Quote:

One time I tried to shoot a wasp with my 12-gauge, but the pellets went right around the sucker! Unfortunately, I had no bug shot.

I learned right here on TFL that coarse corn meal is the official "bug shot" you seek... Tears the heck out of the carpenter bees!

00 Buck for 12 gauge and for the 20, I find #3 locally but wish I could find #2...
Brent

NeroBrandt · July 15, 2010, 07:26 AM

Betcha ball and buck would stop an intruder in his tracks...

Rampant_Colt · July 15, 2010, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampant_Colt

You people suggesting the use of birdshot are making a grave mistake and should refrain from telling others to do so. Your not-so-well-thought-out suggestion may well get someone KILLED! If you want to make the mistake of loading birdshot into your own shotguns for self-defense, that's fine and dandy.. Just don't tell others how potent you THINK or FEEL birdshot is based on personal emotion

Please tell me again which police agencies, militaries or private contractors use birdshot in their shotguns for defensive scenarios...[crickets chirping]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Grump

<edit>

We had Winchester 00, Rubber slugs, rubber buckshot, flechette, and #9 birdshot. What did the military use when you were serving. Just curious, you don't have to tell me if you don't know.

<edit>

I bolded the part that went over your head
You guys used #9 birdshot for defensive scenarios?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroBrandt

Betcha ball and buck would stop an intruder in his tracks...

Probably. But at what distance?
Once those #4 buckshot leave the barrel and split apart from the ball in that hard-recoiling load they will create more collateral damages due to their known erratic patterns.

Federal engineers have developed what is arguably the best buckshot load combination available, the low-recoil Tactical load using the Flight Control wad.

00 and 000 buckshot is proven to work

inSight-NEO · July 15, 2010, 07:17 PM

Buckshot...too many variances/opinions on which is "best." I will chime in on my preference, however....either Low Recoil 00 Buck or #1 Buck.

Either way, just load up and above all [if, God forbid, the crapola hits the fan]....don't miss.

In addition, while being concerned about over-penetration is understandable, the whole idea is to STOP an attack. Use the most powerful load you feel comfortable with.

Keep in mind you cannot stop what you do not hit, regardless of how effective the ammunition. Also, "collateral damage" usually means you missed.

Old Grump · July 16, 2010, 08:44 PM

Quote:

I bolded the part that went over your head
You guys used #9 birdshot for defensive scenarios?

Breeching rounds, what makes you think any of your post went over my head. I just listed nearly everything we had in our ammo locker minus a couple of special purpose rounds. That wasn't for anti-personnel use but I won't volunteer to stand in front of it at 10'. You can if you think it's so harmless.

davem · July 16, 2010, 09:40 PM

During WWII my Father was guarding German prisoners in Texas ( Rommel's African Corp POWS) before going to the Phillipines. The Army issued shotguns with buckshot. He said the pellets were about as big as your finger nail- sounds like 00 Buck or better. I'd stay away from the birdshot.

Boncrayon · July 31, 2010, 03:38 PM

Any guage... 00

redstategunnut · July 31, 2010, 08:54 PM

My 870 has a Surefire 618LF light and seven rounds of 00 Buck. Anyone coming to my house is assumed to be after me, not my stuff, and they will be met with extreme violence.

Bulldawg55 · July 31, 2010, 11:40 PM

I'm convinced 4buck is the best compromise for where I live presently.

ZeSpectre · July 31, 2010, 11:48 PM

Let's think about this for a minute.

THE OBJECTIVE: Stop the Bad-guy from doing his bad-thing.

Be aware that if a firearm is involved then there is a very good chance that stopping the bad-guy will involve serious wounds, permanent disfigurement, crippling, and/or death. (Absolutely no condescension or judgment intended, but if you aren't ready for that part of the scenario then you might want to give serious thought to another plan because using a firearm is probably not the right choice for you).

Also be aware that there are two aspects to being shot.

1) The Psychological aspect where someone might go "oh Snap, I've been shot" and collapse in panic and terror, or at least run away.
2) The physical aspect of being shot where unavoidable physical response to trauma determines what happens next regardless of attitude or willpower.

The majority of the time a human who gets shot thinks (Psychological) "oh, I've been injured, I don't want that to happen again" and ceases most/all aggressive actions. This is a desired outcome, minimal force and quick capitulation....BUT...those who don't do that (for whatever reason, drugs, psycho, high pain tolerance, adrenalin, distraction, etc.) will ONLY, let me stress that again, ONLY be reliably stopped under all conditions by severe physical trauma in one (or more) of three areas.

1) Central nervous system disruption (brain, spine)...the electrical signals that control the body can no longer be sent.

2) Support structure (skeleton) disjunction...if you break the supporting structure (bones) the muscles have no levers to move the body about.

3) Exsanguination (bleeding out)...If the blood pressure drops below a certain point there is no longer an oxygen supply to the brain and the central nervous system shuts down (going back to #1)

1 and 2 can take place instantly with a good shot, #3 can take ANY amount of time from about 12 seconds (how many times could someone stab you in 12 seconds?) to several hours.

As the endless "what load for shotgun" debate rages on it might be wise to take the above points into consideration.

Personally I favor the notion that one round of "00" buck at close range is a lot like shooting someone up to 9 times (assuming most/all of the pellets hit) with a 9mm gun each time the trigger is pulled. That's a significant amount of firepower in anybody's book.

NeroBrandt · August 1, 2010, 05:04 AM

I would bet that if you shot someone with a load of 7.5 bird shot from 10-20', if it didn't kill him, you'd still probably be able to kick his ass. I tend to go with 00 buck shot though.

LanceOregon · August 1, 2010, 09:27 PM

The recent crime spree by British murderer Raoul Moat earlier this month illustrated that a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot can be a most deadly weapon indeed.

All he was armed with during his crime spree was a double barrel 12 gauge that he had sawed off. And it was only loaded with standard #6 birdshot game loads.

Yet, he managed to kill his ex-girlfriend who had cheated on him while he was in prison ( he had been imprisoned for beating his small daughter from another older girlfriend ). The ex-girlfriend had also started dating a Karate expert by the name of Chris Brown, in the hope that he could protect her from Moat once he got out of prison.

However, even her boyfriend's extensive karate skills were no match for two shots of #6 birdshot at close range, and he was killed also.

During the ensuing nation-wide manhunt, Moat was confronted by unarmed British police officer David Rathband, who he shot in the face with his 12 gauge. You should see the photos that the British press posted online of his face wounds. They are horrendous to behold, so I advise you to NOT google them. The poor officer lost both of his eyes, besides having his face extensively mutilated.

The British government then intensified the manhunt, and Moat was eventually cornered by heavily armed special police units.

Moat then held off police, putting his 12 gauge to his head, and threatening to kill himself if the police approached. However, police shot him with both a conventional taser pistol, as well as the new Taser shotgun. The electrical charges from the Tasers caused Moat to lose control of his muscles, and he then discharged the shotgun into his head, mortally wounding himself.

So just look at how many people were killed in this crime spree, just by two barrels of 12 gauge #6 birdshot? Even an unarmed police officer had no chance going up against it, and is now permanently disabled.

Here are some photos of the now dead British child abuser and killer Raoul Moat. Some folks have speculated that his heavy use of steroids to help with his body building may have contributed to his insanity:

And here is a press photo taken of British police officers as they surrounded Moat, just before his death:

.

Glenn E. Meyer · August 1, 2010, 09:50 PM

About alternating rounds - I think it is pretty clear that folks lose all ability to count or track which rounds are which under stress. So it's a dumb idea.

If you short stroke, etc. - forget your place in order.

Anyway, I have to tell this story.

I was in Cabela's and there was a guy with his gal buying an HD pump.

He said, he wanted it as the racking sound will chase the BG away. But if that didn't work - he wanted some blanks to scare the BG more! The clerk look askance at this. Dr. Big Mouth here, goes over and to be helpful starts the stopping mechanism lecture, the roll of the gun - blah, blah, blah.

The guy was so annoyed at me, I thought I was going to be socked. So much for helping - Never again. Anyway, the clerk said he shouldn't get blanks but rubber buckshot.

Sigh - someone later said to me that the guy probably convinced his gal to let him buy a gun and I screwed up the deal. She would only let him have a nice gun. That's a theory anyway. Or he was a putz.

To the original question - tactical 00 - for a shottie. You want to stop the guy and not fool around. If you dont' think you can use an instrument of lethal force - get a taser, big OC or the like. As bird shot can be lethal, don't fool yourself.

July 15, 2010, 07:17 PM	#55
inSight-NEO Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2008 Posts: 608	Buckshot...too many variances/opinions on which is "best." I will chime in on my preference, however....either Low Recoil 00 Buck or #1 Buck. Either way, just load up and above all [if, God forbid, the crapola hits the fan]....don't miss. In addition, while being concerned about over-penetration is understandable, the whole idea is to STOP an attack. Use the most powerful load you feel comfortable with. Keep in mind you cannot stop what you do not hit, regardless of how effective the ammunition. Also, "collateral damage" usually means you missed. __________________ Guns are similar, for instance, to automobiles; in the hands of the sane and responsible, they are generally harmless. In the hands of the insane, careless or malicious, they both become deadly. Blame the person, not the means....mechanical/inanimate objects have no mind of their own. Last edited by inSight-NEO; July 15, 2010 at 07:34 PM.

July 31, 2010, 03:38 PM	#58
Boncrayon Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2008 Posts: 920	Best Shell for Home Defense? Any guage... 00

July 31, 2010, 11:48 PM	#61
ZeSpectre Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Shenandoah Valley Posts: 3,276	Let's think about this for a minute. THE OBJECTIVE: Stop the Bad-guy from doing his bad-thing. Be aware that if a firearm is involved then there is a very good chance that stopping the bad-guy will involve serious wounds, permanent disfigurement, crippling, and/or death. (Absolutely no condescension or judgment intended, but if you aren't ready for that part of the scenario then you might want to give serious thought to another plan because using a firearm is probably not the right choice for you). Also be aware that there are two aspects to being shot. 1) The Psychological aspect where someone might go "oh Snap, I've been shot" and collapse in panic and terror, or at least run away. 2) The physical aspect of being shot where unavoidable physical response to trauma determines what happens next regardless of attitude or willpower. The majority of the time a human who gets shot thinks (Psychological) "oh, I've been injured, I don't want that to happen again" and ceases most/all aggressive actions. This is a desired outcome, minimal force and quick capitulation....BUT...those who don't do that (for whatever reason, drugs, psycho, high pain tolerance, adrenalin, distraction, etc.) will ONLY, let me stress that again, ONLY be reliably stopped under all conditions by severe physical trauma in one (or more) of three areas. 1) Central nervous system disruption (brain, spine)...the electrical signals that control the body can no longer be sent. 2) Support structure (skeleton) disjunction...if you break the supporting structure (bones) the muscles have no levers to move the body about. 3) Exsanguination (bleeding out)...If the blood pressure drops below a certain point there is no longer an oxygen supply to the brain and the central nervous system shuts down (going back to #1) 1 and 2 can take place instantly with a good shot, #3 can take ANY amount of time from about 12 seconds (how many times could someone stab you in 12 seconds?) to several hours. As the endless "what load for shotgun" debate rages on it might be wise to take the above points into consideration. Personally I favor the notion that one round of "00" buck at close range is a lot like shooting someone up to 9 times (assuming most/all of the pellets hit) with a 9mm gun each time the trigger is pulled. That's a significant amount of firepower in anybody's book. __________________ "The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"

August 1, 2010, 09:50 PM	#64
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	About alternating rounds - I think it is pretty clear that folks lose all ability to count or track which rounds are which under stress. So it's a dumb idea. If you short stroke, etc. - forget your place in order. Anyway, I have to tell this story. I was in Cabela's and there was a guy with his gal buying an HD pump. He said, he wanted it as the racking sound will chase the BG away. But if that didn't work - he wanted some blanks to scare the BG more! The clerk look askance at this. Dr. Big Mouth here, goes over and to be helpful starts the stopping mechanism lecture, the roll of the gun - blah, blah, blah. The guy was so annoyed at me, I thought I was going to be socked. So much for helping - Never again. Anyway, the clerk said he shouldn't get blanks but rubber buckshot. Sigh - someone later said to me that the guy probably convinced his gal to let him buy a gun and I screwed up the deal. She would only let him have a nice gun. That's a theory anyway. Or he was a putz. To the original question - tactical 00 - for a shottie. You want to stop the guy and not fool around. If you dont' think you can use an instrument of lethal force - get a taser, big OC or the like. As bird shot can be lethal, don't fool yourself. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 16, 2010, 09:40 PM	#57
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	During WWII my Father was guarding German prisoners in Texas ( Rommel's African Corp POWS) before going to the Phillipines. The Army issued shotguns with buckshot. He said the pellets were about as big as your finger nail- sounds like 00 Buck or better. I'd stay away from the birdshot.

July 31, 2010, 08:54 PM	#59
redstategunnut Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2009 Location: see name Posts: 405	My 870 has a Surefire 618LF light and seven rounds of 00 Buck. Anyone coming to my house is assumed to be after me, not my stuff, and they will be met with extreme violence.

July 31, 2010, 11:40 PM	#60
Bulldawg55 Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2010 Location: GEORGIA Posts: 196	I'm convinced 4buck is the best compromise for where I live presently.

August 1, 2010, 05:04 AM	#62
NeroBrandt Member Join Date: August 16, 2009 Location: Oildale, Ca Posts: 32	I would bet that if you shot someone with a load of 7.5 bird shot from 10-20', if it didn't kill him, you'd still probably be able to kick his ass. I tend to go with 00 buck shot though.

August 1, 2010, 09:27 PM	#63
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	The recent crime spree by British murderer Raoul Moat earlier this month illustrated that a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot can be a most deadly weapon indeed. All he was armed with during his crime spree was a double barrel 12 gauge that he had sawed off. And it was only loaded with standard #6 birdshot game loads. Yet, he managed to kill his ex-girlfriend who had cheated on him while he was in prison ( he had been imprisoned for beating his small daughter from another older girlfriend ). The ex-girlfriend had also started dating a Karate expert by the name of Chris Brown, in the hope that he could protect her from Moat once he got out of prison. However, even her boyfriend's extensive karate skills were no match for two shots of #6 birdshot at close range, and he was killed also. During the ensuing nation-wide manhunt, Moat was confronted by unarmed British police officer David Rathband, who he shot in the face with his 12 gauge. You should see the photos that the British press posted online of his face wounds. They are horrendous to behold, so I advise you to NOT google them. The poor officer lost both of his eyes, besides having his face extensively mutilated. The British government then intensified the manhunt, and Moat was eventually cornered by heavily armed special police units. Moat then held off police, putting his 12 gauge to his head, and threatening to kill himself if the police approached. However, police shot him with both a conventional taser pistol, as well as the new Taser shotgun. The electrical charges from the Tasers caused Moat to lose control of his muscles, and he then discharged the shotgun into his head, mortally wounding himself. So just look at how many people were killed in this crime spree, just by two barrels of 12 gauge #6 birdshot? Even an unarmed police officer had no chance going up against it, and is now permanently disabled. Here are some photos of the now dead British child abuser and killer Raoul Moat. Some folks have speculated that his heavy use of steroids to help with his body building may have contributed to his insanity: And here is a press photo taken of British police officers as they surrounded Moat, just before his death: .