Buckshot for Bear Defense

[Art Eatman]

stinger, you're factually correct about the "top of the food chain". I fully agree.

However, not "letting" a bear "steal" your fishing spot or your trophy buck is right close to the ultimate bit of macho, seems to me. It's saying that somehow your self-esteem, your self-respect, would be dramatically reduced by just moving away and avoiding a hassle.

My personal opinion of that attitude is that it's pretty immature. I'd hate to think my sense of self-worth depended on killing a stoopid bear.

I just don't see it as backing down, as tucking my tail away in some sort of cowardice. To me, it's just avoiding an unnecessary hassle.

I mean, "Hey! You one-ton boulder, rolling down the mountain! You ain't gonna make ME move out of your way!" Duh?

A bear is just a boulder with options...

, Art

[stinger]

Hey, I said that I was only half serious. But yes, I am immature, my wife would most certainly agree with that statement.

A bear is just a boulder with options...

You should write a book.


Stinger

[Keith Rogan]

The states response to shooting a bear in defense of a fishing hole or deer kill is to throw you in the slammer for up to a year and fine you up to 100,000 dollars for hunting brown bears out of season and without a tag.

You can shoot a bear in defense of life and "property" - property being defined as your home (a bear is coming through your window), not a cooler full of beer or steaks.

If you want to hunt brown bears, buy a license and hire a good guide.

[Zorro]

Depends....

I can lose ONE Salmon to a bear, But after #2?

Sorry I am not A Democratic Senator from a VERY Corrupt North Eastern US or Canadien state or Provence!

Sometimes Bears must die.

Even if PETA doesn't mean People Eating Tasty Animals.

Top Predators MUST ASSERT themselves!

Zorro! Shows his Teeth in Threat DISPLAY!
... And a 12 Gauge Shotgun Stuffed Full of Premium Slugs!

[Art Eatman]

stinger, I've always said I've pushed adolescence beyond all previous limits, so not to worry.

Zorro, we're gonna take up a collection and send you to bear-charm school.

After the State of Alaska lets you out.

Keith, take a Valium.

, Art

[labgrade]

Shoot, shovel, & shut up.

Makes great sense for anything one does.

Getting away with that may entail a better objectivity of some, more than others, of the 3S school.

You get to choose.

[H&H,hunter]

I've had a small arctic grizz run me off of caribou kill, My Attitude is save the paper work go get another bou.

I agree with keith never mark the tag untill you've got the meat somewhere safe and sound. Also guys the bear that gets you is the one that you never hear untill it's on top of you. The one that sits over there hollering and grunting and slapping the ground is just a big talker. He's talking the talk but not walking the walk.

I've never spent much time in SW or SE Ak (where the big bears are) most of my time was ans is spent in northen AK where the grizz only get up to aboput 8' and 600lbs or so. But I've got to tell you untill you get the behavior figured out it is intimidating to be the audience at a threat display matinee.

Like anything else you get to know the ropes after awhile. And that's all Keith is saying probably best not to go into bear country by yourself the first couple of times. Go with somebody who knows [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] he's doing.

With that being said guys keep inmind your not likley to get into a an honest to god life or death situation with a bear!!! You will not be attacked every 15 minutes from the time you get off the airplane untill the time you leave AK. I garuntieee.

[QuadOughtBuck]

When all the shot is in a close group it is akin to a large fragnible slug. You know how the poor farmers used to turn their birdshot loads into poor mans slugs by cutting around the base of the shell so all the little tiny pellets would impact as one? When all the pellets are together then the energy is not the individual ammount per pellet, less anyone here beleives that 2 ft/lb birdshot pellets can bring down a deer. Yet when the birdshot is in one mass it does.

Also there is a saying that within 3-5 yards all loads of shot or slug are bassiclly the same.

"When Earnest Hemingway was about to go after a leopard into the cat's grass bed his assistant realized that he had forgotten the buckshot loads. All that was left was some #8 birdshot. Hemingway said, "At the distance I'll be shooting it doesn't matter what load I'm using". He killed the leopard in one shot."

Here are some accounts of actual bear/buckshot encounters.

"I went Bear hunting in Michigan this year after waiting seven years to get a tag. This is my first bear hunt and it was a full moon, so like deer the bears were moving late. I opted to take my 3 1/2 inch mossberg and use buckshot. The bear came in fifteen yards and never moved another inch. All eighteen pellets hit the bear. A nice humane kill. That Mossberg is one bad gun within 50 yards.

mich buckmaster

Quad, thanks for the reassurance of using the buckshot. I have used buckshot for deer and coyotes. I only use it in areas where my shot will be within 70 yards. I would put a 3 1/2inch buckshot against any gun. I once shot at a doe and dropped two deer with one single shot. I use a turkey choke and can put 12 pellets in a paper plate at 50 yards. I would say that is very deadly. The bear I shot, all eighteen pellets went right through the bear makin a hole about the size of a galf ball. A couple pellets went and hit the other shoulder, destroying it. A good, clean, humane kill. Thats what we all strive for."

“Quad-
Here are the examples I know of.
1) Several years back, a farmer I knew had a problem black bear, so he took to keeping his shotgun handy. The bear appeared close by,, he grabbed his gun, and shot it once with 2 3/4" OO. The bear dropped dead at the shot. Two pellets had hit in the head and pierced the skull.

2)A fellow I know also had a problem bear coming to his property. He shot it in the chest and shoulder, it was slightly quartering towards him. That bear took off running, and was shot again, in the side of the ribs. That slowed him up but didn't kill him. A final shot brought him down, and killed him. OO buckshot.

3) A good friend was working at a logging camp, and they had a problem bear. One day they surprised the bear, which ran up a tree. He shot it with a OO 2 3/4 shell. This dropped the bear to the ground, where it began thrashing about and trying to get up. A follow up shot at close range to the head killed it.

4)A fellow I met had worked as a guide in northern BC. They were heading through the bush when they surprised a grizzly on a carcass. The bear charged, and was shot once in the shoulder. This didn't even faze him. A second shot to the head put the bear down. 3" Copperplated 00.

I only witnessed the first one, but have no reason to doubt the other stories. The RCMP aropund here have taken to carrying slugs to deal with bears when the CO's can't attend, and I heard it was because the 00 wasn't doing too well. That is hearsay, of course.
When i carry a shotgun for protecton, they would come out the barrel as slug, OOO, slug slug slug. I throw the buck in there to give me a higher hit chance. Right or wrong, it's what I do.”

"The outfitter himself carried a 12 gauge loaded with OO Buckshot. Turns out he had killed a charging grizzly with it a few years earlier. It was a medium-sized sow which charged him while he was field-dressing an elk. He hit it in the shoulder the first shot, doing great damage and knocking it down, but it got up and charged again. He shot it in the head at close range, killing it. Ruled justifiable self-defense by the powers that be.

OO buck wouldn't be my choice for bear defense, but this guy had results you just couldn't argue with.
Good Shooting, CoyDog"

And just an interesting note on what is capable with slugs.

"A few thoughts on slug effectiveness which some of you may not have heard about. I know that the common Foster-type slugs, as used in many American states, do just fine on whitetail deer, and even on black bear (although they're made to expand, so may not penetrate deep enough to reach the vitals on a heavier animal). Brenneke's do rather better on penetration, as they are specifically designed NOT to expand, on the principle that a 7½-inch-wide hole in an animal should be enough for the job! I understand that several grizzlies have been taken in Alaska at close range with Brenneke's, but that at 35-40 yards and further out, the velocity loss is such as to limit penetration, even with these hard boys.

I know that in Africa, several Cape buffalo have been taken with both Brenneke and Foster slugs. They were shot from broadside, and the Brenneke's proved capable of shooting right through them if no major bone structures were hit. When shoulder or rib bones were hit, the Brenneke's turned them into bone shrapnel, and stopped under the hide on the far side. The Foster slugs generally didn't perform well if bone was hit, but would do adequate damage to heart and lungs. The range on all of these shots, as far as I'm aware, was less than 30 yards, in heavy bush. (On all occasions, a hunter with a heavy rifle was standing by to back up the slug hunter if necessary - on at least 3 occasions, it was VERY necessary, as the buffs didn't seem to think that a shotgun slug in the ribcage was a sporting proposition!)

I don't think anyone's taken rhino or elephant with slugs. I daresay it might be technically possible to reach the heart or lungs with a clear side shot, and no intervening bone, but I think the animals' reactions to a muffed shot might be rather hairy for the close-range shotgun hunter - and I don't think a slug would turn a charge from the big beasties!"

"We have an excellent field report on the results of the Brenneke 12-gauge slug on a buffalo at 9 yards. It achieved full penetration, destroyed the heart (rendering it inedible), and lodged under the skin at the far side. It did not drop the beast in its tracks, but it killed him in a few yards. We have always preached that the 12-gauge Brenneke slug is a very efficient defensive projectile for heavy animals - providing that you use it at short range. Its ballistic shape is poor, cutting its effectiveness down radically as range increases. If you get involved with a dangerous animal, remember he cannot hurt you if he cannot touch you. If you use your weaponry properly, at 20-yards and under, you should make out very well."

Now who thinks the shotgun is bad?

[lilbiggun]

The shotgun isnt bad but it's not what I would use and nobody on this earth is gonna make me change my mind. Carry what you want, it's your life. Someday I hope you make it to bear country (brown/griz) and see for yourself. Hopefully you will never have to test it in real life.

[Mike Weber]

I have several friends from Alaska. They all tell me that what they carried for bear defense were 12 gauges loaded with slugs. This did come as a surprise to me as I expected to hear that they were using some sort of super duper Earschplittin loudenboomer rifle. The 12 gauge with slugs was what all of them carried. When I asked about handguns they all said that a handgun was just about the last firearm on their list for bear defense even the .454 Casull. They all preffered the 12 gauge with slugs.

[labgrade]

Short observation.

Seems a pump rifle - 760 series, et al, (.30/.35 caliber) would be a nifty thing to have. 200+ gr bullets & as rapid as any pump 12 ga - better setional density, etc.

Doubtful though, from what I hear told about bear attacks that any multi-shot anything would do as well as a double barrel - you just don't have the time ... too sad.

[QuadOughtBuck]

"Seems a pump rifle - 760 series, et al, (.30/.35 caliber) would be a nifty thing to have. 200+ gr bullets & as rapid as any pump 12 ga - better setional density, etc."

What's wrong with a .30-06 M1 Garand? This would be even faster than a pump rifle, and who can beat the nestalga of the M1? Then there's the M14 with it's 20 round .30 cal magazine....

[eroyd]

Even smaller cartridges such as the 270 win. have an amazing amount of muzzle energy but there's something to be said for the knock-down stopping power of projectiles with large frontal diameters and a blunt shape.

[Rmouleart]

If your talking the average Joe out in the bush where Browns etc... are roaming around. I have heard the buck shot is the best due to the scare factor to have to take a good aim at a charging bear, with buckshot point and shoot,very fast, thats what your going to need in a up close confrontation with a huge brown, especially if your a regular Joe has not hunted dangerous animals before(meat eaters)
I'm not saying to hunt browns with a shotgun with buck shot either, this is in a situation of a attack when you least expect it. I have been up close to browns and even a 500 pd brown is scary not alone a 1500 pd brown Nor would I want to be in that situation either, but for up close I am taking 20 yards or less, the buckshot will and can detour a charging brown. There was a true story posted on Marlin bigboar forum about this situation and the buck shot did stall the bear and blinded him enough for the hunter to regain his census and load some slugs and finish the job as the bear wheeled around on his side screeming and very pissed off, I will see if I kept the story on file and post it, if I can find it. A saying my father says is you got to know your limitations .every person can react differently in the same situation, and know one knows what he or she is going to do until it happens to them, Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

[QuadOughtBuck]

Interesting story, thanks. I think from all the stories I've heard (some of which are posted on this very thread) buckshot is more than an adequet close quarters stopper for bear.

[googlebutts]

I just have to add my two cents in........
We have a cabin out in the boonies on a mountain. A bear has been over there a few times, last time he got in and destroyed everything, even the couch, trying to get to food. I have talked to many people, some in Alaska, some bear hunters. They ALL stay to stick with the 12G loaded with bear slugs. I know the dept of fish and wildlife will have a fit if I shoot the dang thing, but come on! I have two small boys I have to protect, and if that thing comes anywhere near my children, I will shoot it, bury it and never say a word. I do not go around shooting animals for fun, but if my children are in danger, you are damn right, I will kill anything that is threatening them. OK, I am going back into the corner now, as most probably won't agree.

[Keith Rogan]

I'll reiterate my point from an earlier post.

The only "for sure" stop on a bear is a brain/spinal cord shot. The literature is full of people mauled to death after wounding a bear with a chest or shoulder shot. It doesn't really matter if the bear dies ten minutes after you're dead, does it?

I did not realize until I experimented for myself that shotguns are very particular about where they hit with different loads. I had bought a little Baikal coach gun as a "fishing partner" (because it wa small enough to fit in my backpack with the butt sticking over my shoulder). Anyway, when I played around at close range I soon learned that while standard field loads hit right under the bead, heavy buck and slugs generally tended to go up to six inches high at even a range of 5 yards! As I experimented with different slugs and buck loads I found some (of both) that did hit to point of aim. I won't go into what works in my gun because it's surely different than what will work in yours.
Now, this "finnicky" fact about shotguns is one that I was unaware of until I experimented. I would just suggest that if you're going to use a shotgun that you do some serious close-range experimentation to make sure that you're not just scoring the top of a bears head should the worst happen.

If heavy buck shoots to point of aim and a slug doesn't, then you're better off with buck. Buckshot WILL completely penetrate a bears head at the ranges we are talking about.

I generally carry a .45/70 guide gun loaded with Garrett Hammerheads. In another month after a few hard frosts take down some of the brush, I'll be chasing rabbits around here on Kodiak. I'll have #6's in my right barrel and something else in my left. I won't feel under-armed.

[QuadOughtBuck]

Amen to that, Keith.

[Keith Rogan]

Quad,

I'm curious as to whether you've gone back and tried some close range shots to see if they shoot under the bead?

If so, what did you find out?