What OTHER gun for Bullseye centerfire?

mutski · November 30, 2007, 05:43 PM

Looking at 1911s, seems like .45 ammo (and pistols) are expensive, recoil is high. Maybe .45 isn't what I want to add to my collection. Is there smaller caliber for NRA centerfire Bullseye that costs less, travels faster, might also serve? Our club has a .22 league and a centerfire league, but no 3-gun competition where .45 is required.

I'm new to pistols - is there a semi-auto in some other caliber that doesn't require a $1000 tuneup to shoot accurately enough to be competitive? Why is an off-the-shelf .22 so much more accurate than an off-the-shelf .45? Are there smaller-caliber centerfire semi-autos that ARE
Bullseye-accurate off-the-shelf?

Jim Watson · November 30, 2007, 06:36 PM

Well, sorta.

You could scrounge around for a S&W M52 .38 Special wadcutter gun, or a Clark conversion from .38 Super to .38 Spl wadcutter. Or a S&W 952 and hope for accurate 9mm. Or one of the European .32 S&W Long wadcutter autos. Most are rather expensive themselves, though. I found a M52 for $775 on the S&W board, which seems a good deal.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/for...752#2711080752

It doesn't have to be an auto. Look for a K-38 or Officer's Model Match. Brilliantly accurate and about 1/4 the price of a competitive automatic.

.38 (or .32) wadcutter ammunition is not particularly cheap, though. A loading press would solve a lot of your problems for any caliber.

Powderman · November 30, 2007, 10:02 PM

Well, sorry to be the bearer of bad news...

but if you want to shoot across the course--the full 2700 match---you MUST have a .22 and a .45, at a bare minimum.

The .45 does NOT have to be a semiauto pistol--it can also be a revolver. As a matter of fact, you can use revolvers across the course.

For a good accurate centerfire gun, look closely at the Smith and Wesson Model 14's. The Model 686's have a good reputation for accuracy, too. And, don't forget the Python.

For the .45 revolver, you can use the Smith Model 25 or 625, as an example. Hope this helps!

cdrt · November 30, 2007, 11:26 PM

One of the guys that I shoot with in Amarillo, picked up a Clark 1911 .38 Special conversion for $900 at Gander Mountain. They do turn up occasionally and Triple-K makes an excellent aftermarket magazine for them, as well as High Standard in Houston. I've seen them on Gunbroker but the guys selling them must think they run a musem, not a store; they always want as much as a new one.

I still have my Clark that was converted from a .38 Super back in 1984 and it still shoots great.

I'm guessing that .22s are more accurate off the shelf simply because of the way they're designed. The barrel is usually fixed to the receiver and only the rear slide portion moves. On my Victor and Marvel, the sights are fixed on the rib, so there is no movement at all, unlike the old High Standard 101s where the rear sight was on the slide so it moved every time you pulled the trigger.

.45s have a lot of things that need to be in spec for the gun to shoot well; barrel bushing, barrel fit to the lugs/barrel link, rear lock-up, etc. They just take a lot more work to shoot well.

BillCA · December 1, 2007, 12:37 AM

Bullseye .45 ACP Revolver

S&W Model 25-2, ".45ACP Model 1955"

+1 on a S&W Model 14 .38 Special as a great target gun too.

Except it's likely to break your piggy bank, finding a 6" Model 16 (K-32) .32 S&W Long would be another good target revolver.

softmentor · December 2, 2007, 05:00 AM

my guess .22 are more accurate because WAY less recoil to contend with.

TNT_Shooter · December 2, 2007, 12:29 PM

softmentor,

With all due respect, accuracy has nothing to do with recoil. Remember, recoil occurs AFTER the bullet has left the gun.

I have a 45 acp that will shoot 1 inch groups at 50 yards. I also have a 22 LR that will shoot 1 inch groups at 50 yards.

cdrt gave a nice explanation.

TNT

pinshooter · December 2, 2007, 04:36 PM

You are right about recoil having nothing to do with accuracy. What recoil does do when you are shooting NRA Bullseye is to minimize the amount of time that you have between shots. The higher the gun recoils the longer you have to wait for the firearm to come back on target to make the next shot. You only have 10 seconds in the rapid fire stage to make your 5 shots. You only have 20 seconds in the timed fire stage. Even though your rimfire and centrefire handguns are just as accurate as each other and capable of the same accuracy in reality few people get the same scores with the centrefire gun as they do with the rimfire. We have a gentleman in this area that shoots in the 290's with his rimfire, even he does not get as high a score with his centrefire, it is not off by much but still not as high as his rimfire scores. Recoil does not make the gun less accurate but it does affect the scores.

Isabel1130 · December 2, 2007, 08:02 PM

TNT_Shooter, While I agree with your contention that recoil has nothing to do with the accuracy of the shot that produced the recoil, it does in my expereince have an effect on the next round which can become a big factor in both timed and rapid fire. A large man with really strong hands and wrists probably has a small physical impact and handles the recoil fairly well from hardball .45. If you are smaller man with smaller hands or a woman, less recoil can make a tremendous difference in your scores simply because of the time it takes to level the gun and fire the next shot accurately after recovering from the recoil. In my experience, the less recoil, the less hand and sight displacment, the shorter the recovery time, the better the groups in timed and rapid fire. In other words, I second what Pinfire said and proably should have read his compete post before I put up one of my own. :-) K

glockopop · December 2, 2007, 10:27 PM

I have a Model 14-3 that I looooove. I got if for $339, and it included what turned out to be a $98 pair of Herrett stocks. I've even started to use it in USPSA revolver, and I couldn't be happier with it.

mutski · December 4, 2007, 02:06 AM

Well Dr. Watson, I found a 1976 Smith & Wesson Model 52-2 from a seller in South Dakota, just dropped the check in the mail. It looks to be in fine shape, comes with six magazines, three sets of grips and a scope mount. I can't wait to shoot it!

I already have dies to load .38 specials. I'm waiting for some 148 gr wadcutters shipped from Midway USA on Dec. 19. I hope they beat the pistol so I can play the first day. It should be a KICK! Here are some photos from the seller:

November 30, 2007, 05:43 PM	#1
mutski Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2006 Location: fairbanks, alaska Posts: 127	What OTHER gun for Bullseye centerfire? Looking at 1911s, seems like .45 ammo (and pistols) are expensive, recoil is high. Maybe .45 isn't what I want to add to my collection. Is there smaller caliber for NRA centerfire Bullseye that costs less, travels faster, might also serve? Our club has a .22 league and a centerfire league, but no 3-gun competition where .45 is required. I'm new to pistols - is there a semi-auto in some other caliber that doesn't require a $1000 tuneup to shoot accurately enough to be competitive? Why is an off-the-shelf .22 so much more accurate than an off-the-shelf .45? Are there smaller-caliber centerfire semi-autos that ARE Bullseye-accurate off-the-shelf?

November 30, 2007, 11:26 PM	#4
cdrt Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: The Lone Star State Posts: 255	One of the guys that I shoot with in Amarillo, picked up a Clark 1911 .38 Special conversion for $900 at Gander Mountain. They do turn up occasionally and Triple-K makes an excellent aftermarket magazine for them, as well as High Standard in Houston. I've seen them on Gunbroker but the guys selling them must think they run a musem, not a store; they always want as much as a new one. I still have my Clark that was converted from a .38 Super back in 1984 and it still shoots great. I'm guessing that .22s are more accurate off the shelf simply because of the way they're designed. The barrel is usually fixed to the receiver and only the rear slide portion moves. On my Victor and Marvel, the sights are fixed on the rib, so there is no movement at all, unlike the old High Standard 101s where the rear sight was on the slide so it moved every time you pulled the trigger. .45s have a lot of things that need to be in spec for the gun to shoot well; barrel bushing, barrel fit to the lugs/barrel link, rear lock-up, etc. They just take a lot more work to shoot well. __________________ Navy Vet, SWIFT Boat OIC, Distinguished Pistol Shot #1399 USS JOHN S. MCCAIN (DDG-36)

December 1, 2007, 12:37 AM	#5
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	Bullseye .45 ACP Revolver S&W Model 25-2, ".45ACP Model 1955" +1 on a S&W Model 14 .38 Special as a great target gun too. Except it's likely to break your piggy bank, finding a 6" Model 16 (K-32) .32 S&W Long would be another good target revolver. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

December 2, 2007, 05:00 AM	#6
softmentor Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2007 Posts: 233	my guess .22 are more accurate because WAY less recoil to contend with. __________________ Way HK kinda' guy.

December 2, 2007, 04:36 PM	#8
pinshooter Member Join Date: June 20, 2006 Posts: 26	You are right about recoil having nothing to do with accuracy. What recoil does do when you are shooting NRA Bullseye is to minimize the amount of time that you have between shots. The higher the gun recoils the longer you have to wait for the firearm to come back on target to make the next shot. You only have 10 seconds in the rapid fire stage to make your 5 shots. You only have 20 seconds in the timed fire stage. Even though your rimfire and centrefire handguns are just as accurate as each other and capable of the same accuracy in reality few people get the same scores with the centrefire gun as they do with the rimfire. We have a gentleman in this area that shoots in the 290's with his rimfire, even he does not get as high a score with his centrefire, it is not off by much but still not as high as his rimfire scores. Recoil does not make the gun less accurate but it does affect the scores. __________________ Political correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional disenfranchised minority and by the mainstream media which hold forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] by the clean end.

November 30, 2007, 06:36 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,542	Well, sorta. You could scrounge around for a S&W M52 .38 Special wadcutter gun, or a Clark conversion from .38 Super to .38 Spl wadcutter. Or a S&W 952 and hope for accurate 9mm. Or one of the European .32 S&W Long wadcutter autos. Most are rather expensive themselves, though. I found a M52 for $775 on the S&W board, which seems a good deal. http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/for...752#2711080752 It doesn't have to be an auto. Look for a K-38 or Officer's Model Match. Brilliantly accurate and about 1/4 the price of a competitive automatic. .38 (or .32) wadcutter ammunition is not particularly cheap, though. A loading press would solve a lot of your problems for any caliber.

November 30, 2007, 10:02 PM	#3
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Well, sorry to be the bearer of bad news... but if you want to shoot across the course--the full 2700 match---you MUST have a .22 and a .45, at a bare minimum. The .45 does NOT have to be a semiauto pistol--it can also be a revolver. As a matter of fact, you can use revolvers across the course. For a good accurate centerfire gun, look closely at the Smith and Wesson Model 14's. The Model 686's have a good reputation for accuracy, too. And, don't forget the Python. For the .45 revolver, you can use the Smith Model 25 or 625, as an example. Hope this helps!

December 2, 2007, 12:29 PM	#7
TNT_Shooter Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2007 Location: Mid-Michigan Posts: 101	softmentor, With all due respect, accuracy has nothing to do with recoil. Remember, recoil occurs AFTER the bullet has left the gun. I have a 45 acp that will shoot 1 inch groups at 50 yards. I also have a 22 LR that will shoot 1 inch groups at 50 yards. cdrt gave a nice explanation. TNT

December 2, 2007, 08:02 PM	#9
Isabel1130 Junior Member Join Date: November 6, 2007 Location: Cheyenne, WY Posts: 13	TNT_Shooter, While I agree with your contention that recoil has nothing to do with the accuracy of the shot that produced the recoil, it does in my expereince have an effect on the next round which can become a big factor in both timed and rapid fire. A large man with really strong hands and wrists probably has a small physical impact and handles the recoil fairly well from hardball .45. If you are smaller man with smaller hands or a woman, less recoil can make a tremendous difference in your scores simply because of the time it takes to level the gun and fire the next shot accurately after recovering from the recoil. In my experience, the less recoil, the less hand and sight displacment, the shorter the recovery time, the better the groups in timed and rapid fire. In other words, I second what Pinfire said and proably should have read his compete post before I put up one of my own. :-) K

December 2, 2007, 10:27 PM	#10
glockopop Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: Southern Indiana Posts: 922	I have a Model 14-3 that I looooove. I got if for $339, and it included what turned out to be a $98 pair of Herrett stocks. I've even started to use it in USPSA revolver, and I couldn't be happier with it. __________________ I've only got two hands, but I've been known to carry three Glocks. RZA