Why load hot - Page 2

Mike / Tx · May 29, 2014, 12:20 PM

I've loaded them from mild to wild and usually have some of each loaded for every rifle I have.

That said, I do not make it a habit of running them all at the red line. Most in fact are mild to just over middle loads.

I do like to take them out on occasion once in a while to stretch their legs though.

HiBC · May 29, 2014, 04:38 PM

Picking up one loading manual,Nosler,they list 46 gr as a max load for Varget with a 168 gr bullet.Case and primer make some difference.

We have tried 46 in the AR-10 ish rifles,and backed off a touch,but we did get extremely accurate results.

Lonh ago in Handloader mag,there was an article on "The ultimate Accuracy Load in 308"

They used exclusively Varget,and I recall they found accuracy tightened up on the hot end of the loads they tested.I do not recall the charge weights.

I have often heard the advise"Peak accuracy will come with moderate charges"

It may very well,with many recipes,but some powder/bullet /load combinations suddenly come together tight with a hotter load.

Am I pushing hot loads? No.

A lot of fine hunting performance and good targets can be produced from the 2400 to 2800 fps range in 30 cal.

I value barrel and brass life.The 3000fps number is meaningless to me.

But,OP,I think you have a burr under your saddle when you are slightly mis informed.

As has been pointed out,the loader/shooter in question would have the same head separations at 44 gr of Varget.He can stop it by culling his brass using the bent paper clip trick,and by measuring his brass befote and after sizing to get about a .002 shoulder setback with a bolt rifle.

If his load indeed is producing more than desirable pressure,he will find the primers seat way too easy after about 3 loadings..He will have to pay the price of replacing his brass.

The noise that he represents a threat to the other shooters near him on the line...a bit of a stretch

FWIW,the excessive head clearance from sizing the brass short will also cause the primers to look flattened.The primer blows back to the bolt face before the case stretches back to the bolt face.As the pressurized primer is re seated,the corners tend to sharpen up.

If his bolt handle lifts easy,and if his primer pockets remain tight after several loadings,there is different kind of pressure (between people) that is excessive,and can lead to a blowup.

Paul B. · May 31, 2014, 07:40 PM

Why load hot? Guess I could be a wiseacre and just say, "Because I can."
Just my not very humble opinion but considering that every loading manual just about does not agree with each other primarily because the max loads were worked up om different firearms. I think we can all agree on that OK?
I'll be the first to admit that I do load hot for my rifles. My rifle is different that what Nosler or Sierra, Hornady and whoever else put out a manual. Their loads have to be more or less genetically safe in all firearms. I want to know where the maximum safe output is for my rifle. Then there are the cartridges hamstrung by SAAMI for one reason or another, usually originally loaded in weak rifles but sometimes for other reasons.
What is the true potential of say a 7x57 Mauser in a modern rifle with a modern action? None of the editors of the loading manuals will ever tell you. SAAMI won't either but I'd bet a bit of change they probably know. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the people who do the load work ups for the various manuals that may used a 7x57 know exactly what to use to get that full potential. There's a lot of difference between the 7x57 loaded to what, 50KPSI and that same cartridge loaded to 60KPSI for use in say a Remington M700 or Winchester M70.
Guess there's maybe some truth at that in saying, "Because I can."
Paul B.

4runnerman · May 31, 2014, 07:49 PM

Strange--Most time accuracy is not connected to speed. IMHO-Max loads produce poor accuracy

HiBC · May 31, 2014, 08:51 PM

That mild loads provide the best accuracy is often not true.It is commonly repeated as fact,but often not true.

It is true that very accurate mild loads can be developed,and it is true that with some powders,better results will be had with milder loads.

I also agree that for most purposes,more moderate loads are an advantage.

Some load manuals offer "Most accurate load tested" and they also show the most accurate charge tested for each powder.
It is not difficult to find "most accurate" status attached to maximum loads.

I am not pushing hot loads,just pointing out what is true

reynolds357 · May 31, 2014, 09:56 PM

4runnerman, It has been my experience that above max loads usually produce the best accuracy, at least in belted magnums. I have app. 27 belted magnum rifles. If I remember correctly, two of them have their most accurate load below max. The rest are slightly, to in the case of a .264 Win. Mag, insanely over max. Its all about getting the bullet out when the barrel is in the proper cycle of its harmonic.

Brian Pfleuger · May 31, 2014, 10:06 PM

I have not found that low power loads produce the best accuracy.

What we know about barrel harmonics would tend to suggest otherwise. You want the bullet to exit while the barrel in moving up, since speed variations tend to cancel out because faster bullets leave earlier (lower) and drop less while slower bullets leave later (higher) and drop more. This tends to cancel out differences in MV.

Loads slow enough that the barrel reaches the top and is moving back down before the bullet leaves do the opposite. Faster bullets leave higher and drop less while slower bullets leave later and drop more... instead of canceling it exacerbates.

If two loads both leave on the upswing, the effect will be marginal between them.

All my rifle loads are loaded to or above book max and accuracy is exceptional, considering what the guns are. 1/3-3/4 MOA in regular, unmodified, off-the-shelf, low to mid-grade hunting rifles.

4runnerman · May 31, 2014, 10:10 PM

reynolds- Can't dispute that. I have no magnum calibers. Target rifles only for me. I have 9 of them. All 9 are mid range loads that shoot the best. I did beef up my 308 once,but results were not impressive at all.

reynolds357 · May 31, 2014, 11:24 PM

Many times what you will see is that you will find an accurate load. From that point, as you increase your charge, the group will increase. Then you will hit another sweet load that is even sweeter than the one you increased from.
As for BR guns, my 6br Norma, 6ppc, and .30Br are all very happy slightly under max. In fact, they are happy so close to max that the margin is not there to push them through far enough to see if there is a sweeter load. My .284 1k rifle is happy pretty well north of max. My other 1k rifles are wildcats so I really do not know exactly what max is supposed to be, but I am making an educated guess (case voodoo

) that they are running hot.

grumbles · June 1, 2014, 08:09 PM

I've left the range after watching a man repeatedly beat open the bolt on his rifle. being a trained range safety officer, i casually asked about his load, and the fact that he was using a mallet to open the bolt. His response "I just fill the case up". I rapidly loaded my gear and ran away. I hate the sight of blood on the firing line. Unfortunately Darwin was off duty that day, but in the real world there would be a failure and the 10 year old kid with his grandfather would catch the shrapnel.

that said you would not believe the looks i get at the range while working heavey loads for my Custom mauser when i start measuring case heads with a blade micrometer

reynolds357 · June 1, 2014, 08:13 PM

Yeah, just dip the case full of powder and jam a bullet on top of it. If that dont work, keep using faster powders until you finally succeed .

Brian Pfleuger · June 1, 2014, 08:56 PM

There are powders and cartridge combinations where that's the actual load... fill the case and seat a bullet. I recall being amazed when I first heard if it. I'm pretty sure there's a couple examples in .308.

Heavy Metal 1 · June 2, 2014, 09:04 AM

Contrary to several posts in this thread I have found best accuracy in most of my military surplus bolt action guns with "max or near max" loads.

I posted a similar thread in on another forum. I postulated that since loading data is what was found in the particular rifle the loading manual authors that data is relative to whatever WE are shooting. We are told that each gun is different and we need to load cautiously to THAT gun. I tried to get a meaningful discussion going on the topic, but got several simplistic responses such as "because I don't want to blow myself up". Since we are told each gun is different, following published data is no guarentee of safety. I posted that I found one of my hunting rifles was extremely accurate with a load over published max. Not by a lot, but some. We don't want to be reckless, but if you are careful one can experiment some.

Bart B. · June 2, 2014, 11:22 AM

Depending on how one measures accuracy and the conditions and standards used, Any load can easily produce what they think is best. There is no universally used method with the same objectives, condtions and standards.

Ever wonder why their's hundreds of "best accuracy" loads for a given cartridge and bullet combination?

jmr40 · June 2, 2014, 01:11 PM

Define hot.

Many folks "assume" a faster load is hotter. Looking at loading manuals you'll see many loads 100-200 fps slower than others that generate more pressure.

The 30-06 loads in WW-1 were only pushing a 150 gr bullet @ 2700 fps. By WW-2 that was upped to 2800 fps. Todays very conservative factory loads are around 2900 fps. There are some perfectly safe loads for modern rifles giving 3000-3100 fps now.

Other folks look at a loading manual and consider anything even approaching max to be a hot load. Yet there is very often as much as 2-3 gr difference in max loads between different sources. This comes down to individual guns and barrels. The load in the OP might not have been a hot load in that rifle. Might have been in mine or yours.

eldermike · June 2, 2014, 01:59 PM

I have often found so-called "hot loads" to be more accurate. A case seperation is a sizing problem not a sign of pressure. (As others have already stated)
.7 grain is not much change from max listed loads. When you do stuff like this you need to be loading at the range and creeping up on best accuracy, IMHO. I would hate to drive all the way home and back just to try .8 more powder.

May 29, 2014, 12:20 PM	#26
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	I've loaded them from mild to wild and usually have some of each loaded for every rifle I have. That said, I do not make it a habit of running them all at the red line. Most in fact are mild to just over middle loads. I do like to take them out on occasion once in a while to stretch their legs though. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX

May 29, 2014, 04:38 PM	#27
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	Picking up one loading manual,Nosler,they list 46 gr as a max load for Varget with a 168 gr bullet.Case and primer make some difference. We have tried 46 in the AR-10 ish rifles,and backed off a touch,but we did get extremely accurate results. Lonh ago in Handloader mag,there was an article on "The ultimate Accuracy Load in 308" They used exclusively Varget,and I recall they found accuracy tightened up on the hot end of the loads they tested.I do not recall the charge weights. I have often heard the advise"Peak accuracy will come with moderate charges" It may very well,with many recipes,but some powder/bullet /load combinations suddenly come together tight with a hotter load. Am I pushing hot loads? No. A lot of fine hunting performance and good targets can be produced from the 2400 to 2800 fps range in 30 cal. I value barrel and brass life.The 3000fps number is meaningless to me. But,OP,I think you have a burr under your saddle when you are slightly mis informed. As has been pointed out,the loader/shooter in question would have the same head separations at 44 gr of Varget.He can stop it by culling his brass using the bent paper clip trick,and by measuring his brass befote and after sizing to get about a .002 shoulder setback with a bolt rifle. If his load indeed is producing more than desirable pressure,he will find the primers seat way too easy after about 3 loadings..He will have to pay the price of replacing his brass. The noise that he represents a threat to the other shooters near him on the line...a bit of a stretch FWIW,the excessive head clearance from sizing the brass short will also cause the primers to look flattened.The primer blows back to the bolt face before the case stretches back to the bolt face.As the pressurized primer is re seated,the corners tend to sharpen up. If his bolt handle lifts easy,and if his primer pockets remain tight after several loadings,there is different kind of pressure (between people) that is excessive,and can lead to a blowup. Last edited by HiBC; May 29, 2014 at 04:46 PM.

May 31, 2014, 07:40 PM	#28
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	Why load hot? Guess I could be a wiseacre and just say, "Because I can." Just my not very humble opinion but considering that every loading manual just about does not agree with each other primarily because the max loads were worked up om different firearms. I think we can all agree on that OK? I'll be the first to admit that I do load hot for my rifles. My rifle is different that what Nosler or Sierra, Hornady and whoever else put out a manual. Their loads have to be more or less genetically safe in all firearms. I want to know where the maximum safe output is for my rifle. Then there are the cartridges hamstrung by SAAMI for one reason or another, usually originally loaded in weak rifles but sometimes for other reasons. What is the true potential of say a 7x57 Mauser in a modern rifle with a modern action? None of the editors of the loading manuals will ever tell you. SAAMI won't either but I'd bet a bit of change they probably know. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the people who do the load work ups for the various manuals that may used a 7x57 know exactly what to use to get that full potential. There's a lot of difference between the 7x57 loaded to what, 50KPSI and that same cartridge loaded to 60KPSI for use in say a Remington M700 or Winchester M70. Guess there's maybe some truth at that in saying, "Because I can." Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

May 31, 2014, 07:49 PM	#29
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Strange--Most time accuracy is not connected to speed. IMHO-Max loads produce poor accuracy __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

May 31, 2014, 10:06 PM	#32
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I have not found that low power loads produce the best accuracy. What we know about barrel harmonics would tend to suggest otherwise. You want the bullet to exit while the barrel in moving up, since speed variations tend to cancel out because faster bullets leave earlier (lower) and drop less while slower bullets leave later (higher) and drop more. This tends to cancel out differences in MV. Loads slow enough that the barrel reaches the top and is moving back down before the bullet leaves do the opposite. Faster bullets leave higher and drop less while slower bullets leave later and drop more... instead of canceling it exacerbates. If two loads both leave on the upswing, the effect will be marginal between them. All my rifle loads are loaded to or above book max and accuracy is exceptional, considering what the guns are. 1/3-3/4 MOA in regular, unmodified, off-the-shelf, low to mid-grade hunting rifles. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

May 31, 2014, 08:51 PM	#30
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	That mild loads provide the best accuracy is often not true.It is commonly repeated as fact,but often not true. It is true that very accurate mild loads can be developed,and it is true that with some powders,better results will be had with milder loads. I also agree that for most purposes,more moderate loads are an advantage. Some load manuals offer "Most accurate load tested" and they also show the most accurate charge tested for each powder. It is not difficult to find "most accurate" status attached to maximum loads. I am not pushing hot loads,just pointing out what is true

May 31, 2014, 09:56 PM	#31
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	4runnerman, It has been my experience that above max loads usually produce the best accuracy, at least in belted magnums. I have app. 27 belted magnum rifles. If I remember correctly, two of them have their most accurate load below max. The rest are slightly, to in the case of a .264 Win. Mag, insanely over max. Its all about getting the bullet out when the barrel is in the proper cycle of its harmonic.

May 31, 2014, 10:10 PM	#33
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	reynolds- Can't dispute that. I have no magnum calibers. Target rifles only for me. I have 9 of them. All 9 are mid range loads that shoot the best. I did beef up my 308 once,but results were not impressive at all. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional Last edited by 4runnerman; May 31, 2014 at 10:22 PM.

May 31, 2014, 11:24 PM	#34
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Many times what you will see is that you will find an accurate load. From that point, as you increase your charge, the group will increase. Then you will hit another sweet load that is even sweeter than the one you increased from. As for BR guns, my 6br Norma, 6ppc, and .30Br are all very happy slightly under max. In fact, they are happy so close to max that the margin is not there to push them through far enough to see if there is a sweeter load. My .284 1k rifle is happy pretty well north of max. My other 1k rifles are wildcats so I really do not know exactly what max is supposed to be, but I am making an educated guess (case voodoo) that they are running hot.

June 1, 2014, 08:09 PM	#35
grumbles Member Join Date: October 15, 2005 Location: michigan Posts: 19	max loads I've left the range after watching a man repeatedly beat open the bolt on his rifle. being a trained range safety officer, i casually asked about his load, and the fact that he was using a mallet to open the bolt. His response "I just fill the case up". I rapidly loaded my gear and ran away. I hate the sight of blood on the firing line. Unfortunately Darwin was off duty that day, but in the real world there would be a failure and the 10 year old kid with his grandfather would catch the shrapnel. that said you would not believe the looks i get at the range while working heavey loads for my Custom mauser when i start measuring case heads with a blade micrometer

June 1, 2014, 08:13 PM	#36
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Yeah, just dip the case full of powder and jam a bullet on top of it. If that dont work, keep using faster powders until you finally succeed .

June 1, 2014, 08:56 PM	#37
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	There are powders and cartridge combinations where that's the actual load... fill the case and seat a bullet. I recall being amazed when I first heard if it. I'm pretty sure there's a couple examples in .308.

June 2, 2014, 09:04 AM	#38
Heavy Metal 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2012 Posts: 247	Contrary to several posts in this thread I have found best accuracy in most of my military surplus bolt action guns with "max or near max" loads. I posted a similar thread in on another forum. I postulated that since loading data is what was found in the particular rifle the loading manual authors that data is relative to whatever WE are shooting. We are told that each gun is different and we need to load cautiously to THAT gun. I tried to get a meaningful discussion going on the topic, but got several simplistic responses such as "because I don't want to blow myself up". Since we are told each gun is different, following published data is no guarentee of safety. I posted that I found one of my hunting rifles was extremely accurate with a load over published max. Not by a lot, but some. We don't want to be reckless, but if you are careful one can experiment some. __________________ The blood runs free, the rain turns red, give me the wine, you keep the bread.

June 2, 2014, 11:22 AM	#39
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Depending on how one measures accuracy and the conditions and standards used, Any load can easily produce what they think is best. There is no universally used method with the same objectives, condtions and standards. Ever wonder why their's hundreds of "best accuracy" loads for a given cartridge and bullet combination?

June 2, 2014, 01:11 PM	#40
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	Define hot. Many folks "assume" a faster load is hotter. Looking at loading manuals you'll see many loads 100-200 fps slower than others that generate more pressure. The 30-06 loads in WW-1 were only pushing a 150 gr bullet @ 2700 fps. By WW-2 that was upped to 2800 fps. Todays very conservative factory loads are around 2900 fps. There are some perfectly safe loads for modern rifles giving 3000-3100 fps now. Other folks look at a loading manual and consider anything even approaching max to be a hot load. Yet there is very often as much as 2-3 gr difference in max loads between different sources. This comes down to individual guns and barrels. The load in the OP might not have been a hot load in that rifle. Might have been in mine or yours.

June 2, 2014, 01:59 PM	#41
eldermike Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2013 Location: NC Posts: 545	I have often found so-called "hot loads" to be more accurate. A case seperation is a sizing problem not a sign of pressure. (As others have already stated) .7 grain is not much change from max listed loads. When you do stuff like this you need to be loading at the range and creeping up on best accuracy, IMHO. I would hate to drive all the way home and back just to try .8 more powder.