Buying my first Full Auto

[Jdougg92]

I unexpectedly was left money in a last will and my dream of owning a machine gun is closer than I first believed.
I have registered a couple of SBRs so I know the process of going through the ATF and stamps. But I have more questions.
I see you can buy a manufactured machine gun or buy just a sear and put it in a newer gun. I am willing to spend about 27k. So here are some of my questions.

1) is it better to buy a transferable complete gun or a sear

2) if I buy a FA sear ( I have a ps90 & a CZ scorpion) and I find a gunsmith that is able to make it work and function in a gun that it was not intended for ( ie a MP5 FA in one of mine) is that okay?

3) if a FA sear is installed in a gun can it be taken in and out of one and out into others I own? Are there any engravings that need to be done on the one it is installed in.

4) are there any places I could buy insurance if it is damaged or stolen

5) are FA AR platforms limited to the marked caliber on the lower or can I freely switch out uppers

[OcSpeed]

1) is it better to buy a transferable complete gun or a sear
Depends what you want. HK's might be easier to buy a sear pack, it's probably cheaper to buy a complete m16 or converted ar

2) if I buy a FA sear ( I have a ps90 & a CZ scorpion) and I find a gunsmith that is able to make it work and function in a gun that it was not intended for ( ie a MP5 FA in one of mine) is that okay?
if it fits it fits, I don't know the legalities on this.

3) if a FA sear is installed in a gun can it be taken in and out of one and out into others I own? Are there any engravings that need to be done on the one it is installed in.
it can be moved from gun to gun, as it in and of itself is considered the machine gun

4) are there any places I could buy insurance if it is damaged or stolen
Could add it as a rider on your home insurance policy.

5) are FA AR platforms limited to the marked caliber on the lower or can I freely switch out uppers

you can switch them up at will

[Arizona Fusilier]

Someone please enlighten me on these "transferable sears". They sound like they could be rife with legal mischief. Do they have a serial number? How would a reasonable LEO check your stuff without ripping it apart? If it fits its legal? Anybody got an ATF letter on that?

I would stick with a registered lower and be happy.

[9x18_Walther]

I was under the impression that a drop-in auto-sear is what is actually considered a machine gun by the ATF and not the lower receiver.

For example, I believe that if you have a properly registered drop-in auto-sear, you can buy an 80% lower, complete the lower, and legally put the two together.

I believe auto-sears manufactured before 1981 could be legally purchased and never registered (a lot are void of serial numbers or dates).

Apparently, owning one of these pre-1981 auto-sears with the possession of a M16 trigger group or AR-15 is illegal. I'd stay away from the unregistered auto-sears. You'll never be able to use them.

The ATF has no clue if your auto-sear without any markings is pre-1981 or manufactured yesterday.

After 1981, the auto-sears themselves were registered as machine guns. So I believe you can remove the auto-sears in these guns. They should be individually serial numbered. Obviously, these are probably the most desirable.

[leadcounsel]

It's overrated. I fully believe in the right, don't misunderstand. But it's over-rated and impractical and darn expensive.

Get a bumpfire for $300 first and see if you like it.

Full auto is a very rich mans game.

[BillM]

If you go with the AR platform---FA or drop in sear, you have a lot
more versatility. 22 LR top ends are available, as well as a long
list of centerfire.

It's not just buying the gun--if you want to use that giggle switch you
have to feed the darned thing. Heck---I've got a Bumpfire on a AR
lower, and THAT turns money into noise rather quickly.

[kilimanjaro]

Sounds like you're going to have some fun, just an observation you don't have to answer on the forum, but your inheritance may be the only one you get, I trust you have a good emergency fund tucked away, savings for the kids, house, transportation, and old age already taken care of.

These are all things to provide for before buying a very expensive toy.

You could spend $1500 once a year traveling to a full auto theme park for a week. You'll spend that much on insurance and security for your toy.

[gyvel]

If I had the 27k to spend, I would invest in something like a nice Thompson or a Lewis gun. I tend to favor things with a little bit of history behind them.

[Arizona Fusilier]

Indeed, if I had that much money to spend, a Thompson or a good belt-gun, with all the accoutrements, would be on my short list. A full-auto AR is rather pedestrian (but hey, I own one, not knockin' it).

I agree with Kilimanjaro though; have "life" covered first. I bought my FA toys while I was single and renting......probably couldn't take "the plunge" now.

[Skans]

$27,000 is a lot of money to throw at your first machine gun.

On your question about sears - you really need to look at the legalities of each kind of sear as to what it can and cannot be used in. I can't stress this enough.

As just one example, a transferable sear for an FN FNC is going to be quite different than a transferable DIAS for an AR. An FNC sear can ONLY be installed in an FNC and installation will require modification to the lower receiver, bolt and different fire control parts. Even though an FNC sear might be able to be fitted to newer, similar pattern rifles without modification to the serial numbered receiver, BATFE won't allow it. However, the sear is not married to the gun.

With a registered DIAS, the device can be used in any AR rifles and (in most cases) it makes no difference what upper receiver is on the lower with DIAS installed.

Last I checked (oh, and it does change) You can find registered DIAS's selling in the $20,000 range. Probably could get a full-auto converted FNC with 3-round burst installed for around 12K+. True M16's are probably now close to your $27K, but be aware that they have recently increased in price faster than other full-auto; this makes your investment more volatile (not necessarily bad a bad thing). AC556's still sell for under 10K.

I'm not a big fan of the older belt-fed full-auto (other than maybe the M60). The reason is that they are heavy, harder to use, you need linked ammo or an ammo linker, and for repair and reliability reasons - just not my thing. If you really want to have a belt-fed auto, then get an M16 or DIAS and one of the belt-feed uppers that are made.

If I were to spend 27K on a machine gun, I'm going to want one that has some historical/collector appeal. I probably would be looking at Thompsons in the range of 20 - 23K+/-. But, that's just me. I think, over time, the M16 price appreciation may level off or possibly slide some. They are in high demand because you can use a wide variety of upper receivers with them. In any event, for 27K, make sure you get an excellent condition, clean, original, nice-finish, solid gun. At that price, it's more than simply a ticket to the full-auto club. AC556's are easy to understand and price. With the mid-to higher-end full auto, you really need to research the collectible factors of the gun you are considering.

[gyvel]

I'm not a big fan of the older belt-fed full-auto (other than maybe the M60). The reason is that they are heavy, harder to use, you need linked ammo or an ammo linker...

The perfect reasons to get a Lewis Gun.

[kcub]

I have owned 10 and am in the process of selling some, here are my opinions FWTW.

The one I'm having the most difficulty selling is at 30k. Unless you want something that costs that I advise getting 2 or 3 that total 27k.

I like assault rifles the least. They are hard to control more than a 3 round burst before you have walked off your target. You can get Ciener 22 kits for some, I have one for a folding Ruger AC556. Theses 22 conversions are very fun.

If you want a beltfeeder get a Browning 1919A4.

I like subguns the best they are the most fun and cheapest to feed. My favorite of all is the Thompson. Something that utilizes a drum is best.

[skizzums]

i know nothing of the legal details of obtaining or building full-auto's. I do know whenever i feel the need to dream, i am intrigued by the M31 Suomi. It appears to be almost recoil-less with the heft of the gun combined with the light 9mm cartridge(9mm is cheap BTW!!). The parts are everywhere are drums and mags cost next to nothing. I assume this would have to be built, and have no clue how that process works. I would assume the preject would likely be alot less than 27 grand though, at least i hope so.

https://youtu.be/8NMzro04b5o

[Sharkbite]

A full auto Vector made UZI would be a fairly easy and relatively cheap foray into FA stuff.

Fun to shoot, cheap to feed, easy to fix and care for. If you want to suppress it down the line...thats easy too

[kcub]

Uzis are not lefty friendly.

[gyvel]

If you end up getting aroused by subguns, look into a Sterling. They are a joy to shoot and just look...well, neat.

BTW: Check out www.subguns.com NFA classified for price examples of various FA.

[medalguy]

If you buy a DIAS and it wears out (they do) or breaks, you got nuttin. I'd put my money on a Thompson, Sten, or other subgun. Or go all out and get a Lewis or 1919A4. Both are a ton of fun to shoot and repairs are very easy and parts pretty readily available for both.

[gyvel]

Sigh.........

The Lewis is my Holy Grail.

[Skans]

If you buy a DIAS and it wears out (they do) or breaks, you got nuttin.

My understanding is that as long as you leave the serial number intact, anything can be repaired, even the DIAS's. That said, I'd still be a little cautious investing in a DIAS with an aluminum body. I looked into these, decided against one and went with an AC556. A lot less expensive, and for me, a lot more satisfying.

[Machineguntony]

I own several RDIASes. They're impossible to 'break', especially if they're steel bodied.

The trip wears out, but the trip isn't the registered part and can be swapped out.

Aluminum bodied RDIASes have a tendency to wear the sear hole, though. I don't own an aluminum RDIAS, as all mine are steel. I received an aluminum RDIAS from Frank G that I sent promptly sent back because it had the sear hole issue. Aluminum RDIASes go for around $22,000-$24,000 nowadays. You will need about $28,000-$30,000 cash in hand for a steel RDIAS.

A respected MG dealer once told me that the most common way that a RDIAS is destroyed is that they're lost.

BTW, the noncontrollability/climb of F/A is a myth that needs to stop. It's all about form, technique, and practice. I own 308 belt feds and a registered machine pistol. I can mag dump them all into an 8x12 target at 20 yards. F/A .223 assault rifles are a piece of cake to handle.

[gyvel]

BTW, the noncontrollability/climb of F/A is a myth that needs to stop.

Absolutely. I got into it with a "macho man" who posted a Youtube video of him shooting his FAL in full auto, and then saying how hard it was to control and only a really strong guy like himself () could manage it.

Well, naturally, given my nature, I couldn't let that BS slide, so I told him that not only did I have no problem controlling my L1A1, but my very small slightly built retired Federal agent friend of mine didn't find it hard to control either. He didn't like that. Must have burst his manly bubble. LOLL!!!!!

I mentioned in one of my previous posts that I got sick of old timers coming up to my table at gun shows and starting to relay the story of how, when they fought in the Pacific, they had to hold their Thompsons sideways so the muzzle would sweep laterally instead of vertically. Right then and there, I knew they were probably ship's cooks and never fired a weapon during the war.

[Skans]

BTW, the noncontrollability/climb of F/A is a myth that needs to stop.

I can't speak for all full autos, but the two 5.56 guns that I've shot (M16 and my AC556) are very easy to control and hit what you aim at. Now, if you are doing 30 round mag dumps, ehhh, maybe not so much!

[James K]

The AR-15, M16, and M16 based rifles are fairly controllable in FA fire; that is why the M16 was adopted to replace the M14, which wasn't.

As to climb, climb is caused by the tendency of any recoiling rifle to rotate around its own center of gravity. If the CG is high, and the barrel is in a straight line with the shoulder, there is little or no climb except what the shooter causes by his upper body moving back and pulling the rifle upward. If the CG is low, the barrel will come back, the rifle will pivot on the CG and the muzzle will rise.

So, the controllability of a rifle in FA fire depends on the rifle. It is not a myth, nor is it inevitable. I once witnessed an an Army demo of the M14, designed to show that it was controllable in FA fire. It was, but the shooters were both experienced and roughly the size of Abrams tanks, not the average GI.

Jim

[gyvel]

I once witnessed an an Army demo of the M14, designed to show that it was controllable in FA fire.

If my memory serves me correctly ( and it may not) didn't Ordnance try to correct that whole fiasco with the XM15?

[Mk VII]

The perfect reasons to get a Lewis Gun

Even there you need the mag loading tool (certainly for the .303 version, and your reloads better be full-length resized)