Define Loaded Gun

BarryLee · July 10, 2015, 08:04 AM

Ok, had a friendly disagreement with someone concerning a sign at a local range and wanted a little feedback. A local indoor range has sign posted that reads, “No Loaded Guns or Magazines”.

I told the guy behind the counter that I understood the ban on loaded guns, but didn’t understand the issue with loaded magazines. He basically said that if the magazine was loaded and in the gun someone might chamber a round presenting a safety issue. I responded that a loaded magazine in a gun was actually a loaded gun. However, he disagreed and said a loaded magazine was simply that and that the gun itself wasn’t actually loaded until a round was chambered.

So, I understand this isn’t really a big deal, but just curious what others might think.

JDBerg · July 10, 2015, 08:13 AM

I agree with the range counter person, a loaded magazine doesn't load the gun until a round is chambered.

stagpanther · July 10, 2015, 08:15 AM

Good question--I personally consider any cartridge within a firearm in any manner constitutes a loaded weapon (and for safety's sake assume all weapons are loaded until proven otherwise). If I had to guess--they probably have that rule cause they want to keep people from fooling with their magazines while the range is cold--reducing the probability of someone loading the magazine and having an AD or otherwise. I have seen some amazingly stupid things on a fairly regular basis at public ranges and marvel that more people are not killed at them.

jasmith85 · July 10, 2015, 08:25 AM

I usually call a gun with a loaded magazine in it loaded and one with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber I usually call loaded with one in the chamber.

JimPage · July 10, 2015, 08:36 AM

Just to confuse the issue, in New York state a pistol in a car with ammunition nearby is considered loaded. It's illegal to leave a loaded gun in a car while you go to run an errand, etc.

Back to the point, I consider a gun with a loaded magazine as loaded.

Fishbed77 · July 10, 2015, 09:26 AM

Quote:

I personally consider any cartridge within a firearm in any manner constitutes a loaded weapon (and for safety's sake assume all weapons are loaded until proven otherwise).

THIS. ^

dyl · July 10, 2015, 09:30 AM

BarryLee, I agree. Here's why.

Let's look at the opposite term. There's loaded, and *unloaded.

I think less people would be willing to say that a pistol with a mag in is completely unloaded.
"Did you unload the gun? - Yep it still has 15 rounds in it though"

At an IDPA match, after the shooter is done the command is "Unload and show clear" and the chamber is visually checked. Mag is dropped, round is ejected and slide locked back. How much of that is from the "unload" and how much is from "clear"? I suppose we could explore the subtleties between the two... but I don't feel like it.

Side note. Don't you love it when the media always gasps, "he had a *loaded* gun!!!" - silly rabbit, guns are always presumed loaded, you shouldn't be surprised when it's confirmed.

jmr40 · July 10, 2015, 09:35 AM

The actual interpretation of the law varies by state. Personally, if there isn't a round in the chamber I don't consider it loaded. That is far different from treating every gun as if it is loaded. That is a given.

jonnyc · July 10, 2015, 09:36 AM

"I usually call a gun with a loaded magazine in it loaded and one with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber I usually call loaded with one in the chamber."
Yup.

BillM · July 10, 2015, 09:43 AM

The definition can vary a bit, depending on where you are and what you
are doing.

My wife and I participate in USPSA handgun competitions. From the rulebook:

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

We live and carry in Oregon. One definition from Oregon statute:

166.360 Definitions for ORS 166.360 to 166.380. As used in ORS 166.360 to 166.380, unless the context requires otherwise:

(3) “Loaded firearm” means:
(a) A breech-loading firearm in which there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in or attached to the firearm including but not limited to, in a chamber, magazine or clip which is attached to the firearm.

Guv · July 10, 2015, 09:43 AM

I would call a loaded gun one with ammunition in it, even if not in the chamber. Is a SAA Colt considered not loaded with 5 rounds in the cylinder?

Guv · July 10, 2015, 09:44 AM

^I know the next one up would be live.^

Sequins · July 10, 2015, 09:50 AM

There is a difference between "loaded" and "in battery", that's where we're losing the nuance. When I load a magazine, and load that magazine into my weapon, that weapon is now loaded.

When I retract the slide and chamber a round, now it's in battery. It's still loaded, too.

**44 AMP** · July 10, 2015, 09:57 AM

In general usage, "loaded" means rounds in the gun. One should always assume, for safety, there could be a round in the chamber. Until the introduction of modern repeaters, "loaded" ALWAYS meant round in the chamber.

"Unload" means to remove all ammunition from the gun.

"Clear" means to remove the round from the chamber. "Show clear" means gun open, empty, so visual inspection shows the clear chamber.

"Loaded" in legal terms, however means different things, depending on where you are. The laws vary more than a bit, and what is perfectly legal one place is an offence on the other side of the political (state, usually) line.

Some places, rounds in the gun, but none in the chamber is still legally loaded.
Another place, it is not. Another place, rounds in a magazine NOT IN THE GUN, but in the same compartment as the gun (passenger or trunk) constitutes loaded, legally. Another place it does not, but only if the gun and ammo are in separate locked containers...

Some state define it by access. IF you have access to both the gun and the ammo the gun is considered loaded, even when there are no rounds in it. (ex: you, driving, empty gun in glove box, ammo in back seat, its "loaded, under the letter of the law. IF the ammo, OR the gun, (or you) were in the trunk, under that law, the gun would not be considered loaded.

AND, in some places, a loaded gun is allowed, but only ON your person.

There are about as many variations as there are states (or so it seems), and you BEST KNOW the laws in each state you enter, BEFORE you get there.

Rothdel · July 10, 2015, 10:23 AM

I believe many states legally define loaded to mean it takes one action (IE pulling the trigger) to fire a round. A magazine in the well would require at least 2 actions (racking the slide, pulling the trigger) to fire. The way they look at revolvers just goes to show how many people writing firearm laws know nothing about firearms. I have seen at least 2 states with the above definition refer to a DA only revolver as loaded if the cylinder under the hammer or the cylinder adjacent to it has a round in the chamber. To me requiring a single action would mean that the cylinder where the hammer is could have a round while the next could not. evidently people think you can (under normal operation) fire a DA only with out rotating the cylinders.

Don P · July 10, 2015, 10:29 AM

Quote:

I personally consider any cartridge within a firearm in any manner constitutes a loaded weapon (and for safety's sake assume all weapons are loaded until proven otherwise)

I agree. Shoot a competition match and at the end of the stage you will be instructed "if finished UNLOAD and SHOW CLEAR.
To me it is stating that with the magazine in the gun the gun is loaded.

RickB · July 10, 2015, 10:31 AM

I think there are three levels of readiness, and they're not the same for all guns.
For instance, an auto pistol with a loaded mag in the well, but no round in the chamber, is not loaded, but it's not unloaded, either.
A revolver with an empty chamber under the hammer is loaded, since pulling the trigger (DA), or cocking and pulling the trigger (SA) will fire the gun.
In IDPA competition, the gun is considered loaded if there's ammo in the magazine or a round is in the chamber, but it's not considered unloaded until it's been cleared of all ammo.
Under some conditions, the gun is considered loaded if the gun has malfunctioned and is out of battery, but that's a procedural issue, and not a matter of safety.

TimSr · July 10, 2015, 10:47 AM

I don't think it really matters. You questioned it, they answered it, that's what it means there. Communicatin was established.

As for legal definition, that will vary greatly state by state, and state regulations and definitions are not required to reflect common sense or reality in any way so it's whatever THEY say it is.

Ohio's definition of "loaded gun" as it pertains to a vehicle was a magazine or a speed loader with rounds in ithem. I believe they recently changed or were in the process of changing that.

str8tshot · July 10, 2015, 10:51 AM

I agree with the range rat. A round in the chamber is a loaded gun, a round in the magazine is a loaded magazine.

BarryLee · July 10, 2015, 11:05 AM

Quote:

I don't think it really matters. You questioned it, they answered it, that's what it means there. Communicatin was established.

I agree to a certain extent, but what concerned me is that I generally load a little over 100 rounds in various magazines before I go to the range. So, I end up carrying in several “loaded magazines” and was curious if that was a problem for the range and why. The guy actually told me that what I was doing was ok as long as they weren’t in a gun. Again, I realize this isn’t really a big deal, but just curious what you folks thought.

dyl · July 10, 2015, 11:12 AM

Well hey, not every thread needs to be about ground-breaking issues. Based on the response it looks like we all learned something.

I don't know why I never caught on to loading mags at home first. Maybe because I don't have enough mags. But if I had more, it sure would beat trying to do it standing at a range with rounds rolling around on a tiny bench with no lip.

mavracer · July 10, 2015, 11:25 AM

Well if it has rounds in the magazine and the magazine is in the gun it sure as heck isn't unloaded

BigJimP · July 10, 2015, 12:28 PM

Cartridges in the mag - and mag in the gun...makes it a loaded gun in my view...and by most state's definitions.

A round in the chamber - changes the "condition" of readiness of the loaded gun ...but its loaded either way. This is an excerpt from Coopers "condition of carry readiness"...

Cooper favored the Colt M1911 pistol and its variants. There are several conditions of readiness in which such a weapon can be carried. Cooper promulgated most of the following terms:
Condition 4: Chamber empty, empty magazine, hammer down.
Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition 2: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition 1: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition 0: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

DanTSX · July 10, 2015, 12:43 PM

I think that in a gun store, which is an environment where the 4 rules are somewhat ignored because the assumption is that everything is unloaded for demonstration purposes, that keeping loaded magazines away from firearms is pretty logical since everyone fingergroping every gun and manipulating it's action constantly is going to increase your chances of an accident.

The semantics are not important. Keeping a ready ammunition source away from demo guns, that may be mistaken for an empty mag, is reasonable and shouldn't raise any eyebrows even amongst the strongest pro2A guys.

If you think loaded mags next to display guns Is A-ok, open your own gunshop that welcomes this behavior and use whatever semantics you wish.

TunnelRat · July 10, 2015, 12:46 PM

I tend to think of it as if I was in a situation and someone passed me a gun and said, "It's loaded", I would assume there was a round in the chamber. I would check myself of course but that would be my initial assumption. I think what you stumbled on is the fact that "loaded" itself may be too vague a term for certainty when working with others who may interpret it differently. That's likely why that sign exists.

July 10, 2015, 08:04 AM	#1
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	Define Loaded Gun Ok, had a friendly disagreement with someone concerning a sign at a local range and wanted a little feedback. A local indoor range has sign posted that reads, “No Loaded Guns or Magazines”. I told the guy behind the counter that I understood the ban on loaded guns, but didn’t understand the issue with loaded magazines. He basically said that if the magazine was loaded and in the gun someone might chamber a round presenting a safety issue. I responded that a loaded magazine in a gun was actually a loaded gun. However, he disagreed and said a loaded magazine was simply that and that the gun itself wasn’t actually loaded until a round was chambered. So, I understand this isn’t really a big deal, but just curious what others might think. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

July 10, 2015, 08:13 AM	#2
JDBerg Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2015 Location: PA Posts: 1,835	I agree with the range counter person, a loaded magazine doesn't load the gun until a round is chambered. __________________ Words to Live By: Before You Pray - Believe; Before You Speak - Listen; Before You Spend - Earn; Before You Write - Think; Before You Quit - Try; Before You Die - Live

July 10, 2015, 08:15 AM	#3
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,787	Good question--I personally consider any cartridge within a firearm in any manner constitutes a loaded weapon (and for safety's sake assume all weapons are loaded until proven otherwise). If I had to guess--they probably have that rule cause they want to keep people from fooling with their magazines while the range is cold--reducing the probability of someone loading the magazine and having an AD or otherwise. I have seen some amazingly stupid things on a fairly regular basis at public ranges and marvel that more people are not killed at them. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

July 10, 2015, 08:36 AM	#5
JimPage Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Location: Rome, NY Posts: 941	Just to confuse the issue, in New York state a pistol in a car with ammunition nearby is considered loaded. It's illegal to leave a loaded gun in a car while you go to run an errand, etc. Back to the point, I consider a gun with a loaded magazine as loaded. __________________ Jim Page Cogito, ergo armatum sum

July 10, 2015, 09:36 AM	#9
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	"I usually call a gun with a loaded magazine in it loaded and one with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber I usually call loaded with one in the chamber." Yup. __________________ 2024 PA Cartridge Collector Show; Aug. 16-17, 2024!!! Buy...Sell...Trade All Types of Ammunition & Ordnance PM or email me for 2024 show details.

July 10, 2015, 08:25 AM	#4
jasmith85 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2012 Location: Tennessee Posts: 631	I usually call a gun with a loaded magazine in it loaded and one with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber I usually call loaded with one in the chamber.

July 10, 2015, 09:30 AM	#7
dyl Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,310	BarryLee, I agree. Here's why. Let's look at the opposite term. There's loaded, and unloaded. I think less people would be willing to say that a pistol with a mag in is completely unloaded. "Did you unload the gun? - Yep it still has 15 rounds in it though" At an IDPA match, after the shooter is done the command is "Unload and show clear" and the chamber is visually checked. Mag is dropped, round is ejected and slide locked back. How much of that is from the "unload" and how much is from "clear"? I suppose we could explore the subtleties between the two... but I don't feel like it. Side note. Don't you love it when the media always gasps, "he had a loaded* gun!!!" - silly rabbit, guns are always presumed loaded, you shouldn't be surprised when it's confirmed.

July 10, 2015, 09:35 AM	#8
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	The actual interpretation of the law varies by state. Personally, if there isn't a round in the chamber I don't consider it loaded. That is far different from treating every gun as if it is loaded. That is a given.

July 10, 2015, 09:43 AM	#10
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 791	The definition can vary a bit, depending on where you are and what you are doing. My wife and I participate in USPSA handgun competitions. From the rulebook: Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. We live and carry in Oregon. One definition from Oregon statute: 166.360 Definitions for ORS 166.360 to 166.380. As used in ORS 166.360 to 166.380, unless the context requires otherwise: (3) “Loaded firearm” means: (a) A breech-loading firearm in which there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in or attached to the firearm including but not limited to, in a chamber, magazine or clip which is attached to the firearm.

July 10, 2015, 09:43 AM	#11
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	I would call a loaded gun one with ammunition in it, even if not in the chamber. Is a SAA Colt considered not loaded with 5 rounds in the cylinder?

July 10, 2015, 09:44 AM	#12
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	^I know the next one up would be live.^

July 10, 2015, 09:50 AM	#13
Sequins Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2014 Posts: 394	There is a difference between "loaded" and "in battery", that's where we're losing the nuance. When I load a magazine, and load that magazine into my weapon, that weapon is now loaded. When I retract the slide and chamber a round, now it's in battery. It's still loaded, too.

July 10, 2015, 09:57 AM	#14
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	In general usage, "loaded" means rounds in the gun. One should always assume, for safety, there could be a round in the chamber. Until the introduction of modern repeaters, "loaded" ALWAYS meant round in the chamber. "Unload" means to remove all ammunition from the gun. "Clear" means to remove the round from the chamber. "Show clear" means gun open, empty, so visual inspection shows the clear chamber. "Loaded" in legal terms, however means different things, depending on where you are. The laws vary more than a bit, and what is perfectly legal one place is an offence on the other side of the political (state, usually) line. Some places, rounds in the gun, but none in the chamber is still legally loaded. Another place, it is not. Another place, rounds in a magazine NOT IN THE GUN, but in the same compartment as the gun (passenger or trunk) constitutes loaded, legally. Another place it does not, but only if the gun and ammo are in separate locked containers... Some state define it by access. IF you have access to both the gun and the ammo the gun is considered loaded, even when there are no rounds in it. (ex: you, driving, empty gun in glove box, ammo in back seat, its "loaded, under the letter of the law. IF the ammo, OR the gun, (or you) were in the trunk, under that law, the gun would not be considered loaded. AND, in some places, a loaded gun is allowed, but only ON your person. There are about as many variations as there are states (or so it seems), and you BEST KNOW the laws in each state you enter, BEFORE you get there. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 10, 2015, 10:23 AM	#15
Rothdel Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2015 Posts: 190	I believe many states legally define loaded to mean it takes one action (IE pulling the trigger) to fire a round. A magazine in the well would require at least 2 actions (racking the slide, pulling the trigger) to fire. The way they look at revolvers just goes to show how many people writing firearm laws know nothing about firearms. I have seen at least 2 states with the above definition refer to a DA only revolver as loaded if the cylinder under the hammer or the cylinder adjacent to it has a round in the chamber. To me requiring a single action would mean that the cylinder where the hammer is could have a round while the next could not. evidently people think you can (under normal operation) fire a DA only with out rotating the cylinders.

July 10, 2015, 10:31 AM	#17
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I think there are three levels of readiness, and they're not the same for all guns. For instance, an auto pistol with a loaded mag in the well, but no round in the chamber, is not loaded, but it's not unloaded, either. A revolver with an empty chamber under the hammer is loaded, since pulling the trigger (DA), or cocking and pulling the trigger (SA) will fire the gun. In IDPA competition, the gun is considered loaded if there's ammo in the magazine or a round is in the chamber, but it's not considered unloaded until it's been cleared of all ammo. Under some conditions, the gun is considered loaded if the gun has malfunctioned and is out of battery, but that's a procedural issue, and not a matter of safety. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

July 10, 2015, 10:47 AM	#18
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	I don't think it really matters. You questioned it, they answered it, that's what it means there. Communicatin was established. As for legal definition, that will vary greatly state by state, and state regulations and definitions are not required to reflect common sense or reality in any way so it's whatever THEY say it is. Ohio's definition of "loaded gun" as it pertains to a vehicle was a magazine or a speed loader with rounds in ithem. I believe they recently changed or were in the process of changing that.

July 10, 2015, 10:51 AM	#19
str8tshot Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2014 Posts: 102	I agree with the range rat. A round in the chamber is a loaded gun, a round in the magazine is a loaded magazine.

July 10, 2015, 11:12 AM	#21
dyl Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,310	Well hey, not every thread needs to be about ground-breaking issues. Based on the response it looks like we all learned something. I don't know why I never caught on to loading mags at home first. Maybe because I don't have enough mags. But if I had more, it sure would beat trying to do it standing at a range with rounds rolling around on a tiny bench with no lip.

July 10, 2015, 12:28 PM	#23
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Cartridges in the mag - and mag in the gun...makes it a loaded gun in my view...and by most state's definitions. A round in the chamber - changes the "condition" of readiness of the loaded gun ...but its loaded either way. This is an excerpt from Coopers "condition of carry readiness"... Cooper favored the Colt M1911 pistol and its variants. There are several conditions of readiness in which such a weapon can be carried. Cooper promulgated most of the following terms: Condition 4: Chamber empty, empty magazine, hammer down. Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down. Condition 2: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down. Condition 1: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on. Condition 0: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

July 10, 2015, 12:43 PM	#24
DanTSX Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2008 Posts: 318	I think that in a gun store, which is an environment where the 4 rules are somewhat ignored because the assumption is that everything is unloaded for demonstration purposes, that keeping loaded magazines away from firearms is pretty logical since everyone fingergroping every gun and manipulating it's action constantly is going to increase your chances of an accident. The semantics are not important. Keeping a ready ammunition source away from demo guns, that may be mistaken for an empty mag, is reasonable and shouldn't raise any eyebrows even amongst the strongest pro2A guys. If you think loaded mags next to display guns Is A-ok, open your own gunshop that welcomes this behavior and use whatever semantics you wish.

July 10, 2015, 12:46 PM	#25
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	I tend to think of it as if I was in a situation and someone passed me a gun and said, "It's loaded", I would assume there was a round in the chamber. I would check myself of course but that would be my initial assumption. I think what you stumbled on is the fact that "loaded" itself may be too vague a term for certainty when working with others who may interpret it differently. That's likely why that sign exists.