August 13, 2012, 10:10 PM | #1 |
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movie trivia-PALE RIDER
OK, I saw a clip of the final duel in pale rider. It looks like Eastwood is removing the cylinder from a Remington BP. Then obtaining a new one from a cylinder holster and placing it back in the weapon. A close look shows what I think are brass cartridges. OK, movie buffs, what is it he has? Is this historically correct? etc...
BTW- you can see this scene on utube if you want reference. Last edited by bushmaster65; August 13, 2012 at 10:12 PM. Reason: unfinished |
August 13, 2012, 10:56 PM | #2 |
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It's an 1858 Remington, and it's been well documented in a variety of places that the movie prop gun that he used was modified to accept brass cartridge blanks. The original Remmies were, obviously, cap and ball revolvers. The small revolver he uses to shoot the final shot it also a Remington.
He must have practiced a bit, as the cylinder exchange was flawless. It's a classic scene. Willie . |
August 13, 2012, 11:59 PM | #3 |
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It's a 1863 Remington new model army conversion. As in converted into a cartridge gun.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joelogon/5778840128/ http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...1858-revolver/ Some original remington conversions were made so that you had to remove the cylinder to reload. Sort of like an R&D conversion cylinder. http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/cartr...cylinders.html Clint just used extra cylinders. Last edited by MJN77; August 14, 2012 at 12:39 AM. |
August 14, 2012, 06:40 AM | #4 |
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that is one of the coolest scenes ever..if i can ever buy one of those guns ill have to have it....i always wondered exactly what that gun was..thanks
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August 14, 2012, 08:34 AM | #5 |
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Cylinder swapping isn't historically correct. Cylinders back then didn't fit just any gun.
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August 14, 2012, 08:52 AM | #6 | |
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But in the novel "Bright Starry Banner" by Alden R. Carter, one of the Yankee officers had several "capped and charged" cylinders for his Colt 1860. |
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August 14, 2012, 09:02 AM | #7 |
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It's an ok movie but it was an obvious plagiarization (?!) of Shane.
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August 14, 2012, 09:10 AM | #8 | |
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August 14, 2012, 09:12 AM | #9 | |
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August 14, 2012, 09:41 AM | #10 |
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No eye witness accounts, no written record, no pictoral record, no cylinder pouches in pics or museums.
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August 14, 2012, 10:12 AM | #11 | |||
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There has been some documentation mentioned on this site for extra cylinders with cased sets, that a Navy spare cylinder pouch existed and there's photos of a museum quality 1851 holster rig that belonged to a civil war officer. Gee whiz, all over movie trivia.... Original 1851 Navy and holster rig - must see http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...+documentation Quote:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ntation&page=3 Quote:
Last edited by arcticap; August 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM. |
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August 14, 2012, 11:19 AM | #12 |
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Supposedly the reason for the cartridge cylinder being used is that Eastwood was goosey about the capped cylinders and didn't want to use them.
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August 14, 2012, 12:41 PM | #13 |
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There were some in cased sets but few and far between. The photos of the 51 belt rig shows a standard cartridge box with the liner missing. Cylinders in the day had to be matched to the gun. It was a lot easier to time a gun to a cylinder than a cylinder to a gun. Just wasn't done.
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August 14, 2012, 01:07 PM | #14 |
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There has been tons written about this, there are entire messge boards just on Clint Eastwood movies. Here's one: http://www.clinteastwood.org/forums/index.php
Something I read lately, might have even been here, that Clint was involved somehow in a chainfire during the Spaghetti-Western days and made a decision not to have Percussion revolver around. While this is a movie, real life historical records show no (or at least not enought to write about) evidence that anyone carried extra cylinders primed and capped. It's also very important to remember that revolvers were not the primary weapon of the armies, they were more often than not, considered a liability. Except for the bands of guarillas, who were armed to the teeth with as many revolvers as they could beg, borrow, or steal and put them everywhere. Since there IS much written about this process, and none written of the carring extra cylinders...well, how much more evidence do we need? Then lastly, Pale Rider was the only movie that I know of, where a cylinder change was promoted. This should also tell us somthing about the use of extra cylinders. Since this was the 1st time it was actually done in a movie and now we are debating "If was regularly done in war." The evidence is in-it wasn't. But, we can still talk about it and have fun with the idea. I have two '58's and 6 cylinders. All JUST FOR FUN. |
August 14, 2012, 01:31 PM | #15 |
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It does make good cinema.
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August 14, 2012, 07:20 PM | #16 | |
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On your 51 navy rig, the tin lined box is an ammo box for rifle/carbine ammo. It even has the tin liner like most variations of the era. You see, that other box on that belt is a military ammo box made specifically to carry packaged paper or foil cartridges for revolvers. http://www.yankeecollector.com/catal...55/8633750.htm As OJW pointed out, the revolver was not the primary weapon. Just because a cylinder fits into the box, doesn't mean that's what it was made for. You know what they say about ass-umptions. As for cased sets with spare cylinders, as Hawg said few and far between. Most cased sets with extra cylinders that I have seen were Colt Paterson revolvers. How many "regular" cowboys, shop owners, lawmen etc. do you think carried (or could afford) a cased set revolver? These were mainly presentation grade guns. Given to heads of state, military officers, entertainers etc. Most were engraved and/or had custom grips. These were not the guns of the "working man". And few had "spare" cylinders. If as you say, spare cylinders were used during the civil war, westward expansion etc., why do you not see dug up relic "spare" cylinders in civil war museums alongside the dug up relic revolvers? Just something to think about. Last edited by MJN77; August 15, 2012 at 11:45 AM. |
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August 14, 2012, 09:26 PM | #17 |
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One of my favorite movie firearms. Historically correct or not!
http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum/...281985%29.aspx TK |
August 14, 2012, 10:12 PM | #18 |
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It's as I suspected then. It is pure Hollywood and nothing else. If anyone did carry a spare cylinder back in the day, they would likely be the equivalent of a modern day "show off" or "dumb ass". Very interesting responses though, as well as pics , etc.
Thanks to all who found the time to respond. Now if you will excuse me, I need to order my Uberti walker |
August 14, 2012, 10:24 PM | #19 |
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Excellent choice.... the Walker!
When you get it, be sure to put a pic in The Dragoon Thread! http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482798 |
August 15, 2012, 06:19 AM | #20 |
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Why ruin a great movie with reality?
Willie . |
August 15, 2012, 09:09 AM | #21 |
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"Cylinder swapping isn't historically correct. Cylinders back then didn't fit just any gun."
Fitting a cylinder to particular gun isn't a particularly difficult task, even for someone who isn't a particularly skilled gunsmith. I have no doubt that even back then people realized that and some took advantage of it.
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August 15, 2012, 10:37 AM | #22 | |||
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August 15, 2012, 11:11 AM | #23 |
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OldMarksman -
Spangenberger, like many magazine writers, claims evidence exists but fails to provide a credible citation. A true historian would have provided a bibliography specifying the documentation he claims supports his thesis. A politician, on the other hand, simply makes a claim and goes on as if it's supported. It's clear which profession Spangenberger belongs to. By the way, one only has to read the 5 comments following his editorial (for that's all it is) to see what credibility it lacks. I'd suggest if you're going to cite his opinion as proof of the thesis that you at least be sure the comments that refute it are not immediately available - it makes you appear, well, as if you hadn't done your homework. |
August 15, 2012, 11:44 AM | #24 |
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Brings up a potentially interesting point for the historians among you
We are treated to reports of revolvers being marketed with extra cylinders which certainly gives credence to the practice of keeping extra loaded cylinders as a viable historical possibility.
On the other hand, in a region in which money was scarce, how likely is it that a person who considered his revolver as one of the many tools he had to carry either on his hip, the saddle, or saddle bags, would find a place to buy a revolver in the set described, and then have the money to invest. I am reminded of Duvall's comment in Open range about how he acquired his revolver. "I took it from a man who could not afford to pay me for some cows." That comment does not indicate anything in the way of historical fact in and of itself. It is from a movie (fiction) We are also treated to some reports that ranch hands were issued firearms by the owner of the ranch and who may not have owned their own personal weapon. So the question for me is: For the person who felt the need to acquire and carry a revolver of any consequence, where did he (or she) get it? Trade for it? Handed down from dad or grand dad? buy it from a private individual? Buy it from a store or shop? And when he did, how much control did he have over what he got? Did the individual have to be satisfied with some slim pickens, or were there enough revolvers available that he could pick and choose?
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August 15, 2012, 11:48 AM | #25 |
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Oldmarksman, thank you for the Spangenberger link. The comments following the article seem to agree with what I posted earlier. Even the pic of the Remington revolvers were, as I posted above, "presentation grade guns".
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