Which 10mm do I need? - Page 3

Mike_Fontenot · November 1, 2014, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HisSoldier

[...]
My DW Razorback is probably the finest 1911 clone in my collection [...]
[...]

If DW had made the same design choices that Kimber made in their Eclipse (like front-strap checkering, racking grooves on the front of the slide, and a grip-lever-controlled firing-pin safety, and a NON-ambidexrious thumb safety), I'd probably have one by now.

Sevens · November 2, 2014, 10:19 AM

Aww, Mike, the DW is miles better & then some over the Kimber and the firing pin lock on the Kimber is big part of the reason.

If you put each of these in your hands, you'd agree immediately.

AustinTX · November 2, 2014, 10:36 AM

Thinking about getting one of these at some point. STI does a really fine job with their guns. The DW Razorback is a lot nicer to look at, though -- and a lot less expensive.

DA/SA Fan · November 2, 2014, 12:16 PM

Quote:

In case anyone is interested, the Grand Power that I mentioned earlier WILL be available in 10mm in the US. Eagle Imports (Bersa) will be selling them.

Quote:

Thanks. Any known timeline on this?

Nothing definite. Someone from Grand Power has said that the ATF licensing takes 6-8 months. I don't know how far along the process is, but since the other calibers aren't here yet, I am guessing it might be a year. Just my guess though. so don't take it as gospel.

Sevens · November 2, 2014, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Thinking about getting one of these at some point. STI does a really fine job with their guns. The DW Razorback is a lot nicer to look at, though -- and a lot less expensive.

Certainly, I've never seen one of the STI Perfect 10's in the flesh, but I have handled and shot a couple of STI 2011 full-boat race guns. Also had a Trojan and a buddy of mine has a Ranger II. STI makes quality handguns and all except one of them are USA made.

But I've also handled a few Dan Wesson 1911 pistols and only had the pleasure of shooting one... but again, the Dan Wesson outclasses them - in my opinion of course. And the different plastic parts on the STI (while replaceable enough...) look cheap, feel extremely cheap and just plain confound me. Dan Wesson uses Ed Brown parts.

I don't believe there is a finer production 1911 on the market than a Dan Wesson. If you want better, it's going be from one of the elite, obvious known makers.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me... but the very next time you see a Dan Wesson, ask them to fish it out and handle that handgun and see if you can tell, feel and visually see what these guys are doing. These are very much a cut above production-level handguns.

smee78 · November 2, 2014, 02:56 PM

For 10mm I went with the S&W 1076 & 1006 for my bottom feeders. Built like a tank and a nice single stack mag.

Sevens · November 2, 2014, 03:03 PM

I've had my 1006 since 1994, I think. My buddy bought it new in 1992 on my advice and his wife decided to make him sell it to me a bit later. It took him a decade to shed that woman, but good for him.

Mine is dang near a safe queen. It's not as friendly to shoot as my Glock 29 and it throws brass across the county even with a replacement Wolff recoil spring. And the trigger is two-way horrendous and I can't shoot it as accurately as my G29.

I love Smith & Wesson 1st, 2nd & 3rd Gen pistols and I have six of them, but the 1006 barely sees the light of day. Pride of ownership is high... but I hardly shoot it anymore.

AustinTX · November 2, 2014, 05:34 PM

Quote:

I don't believe there is a finer production 1911 on the market than a Dan Wesson. If you want better, it's going be from one of the elite, obvious known makers.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me... but the very next time you see a Dan Wesson, ask them to fish it out and handle that handgun and see if you can tell, feel and visually see what these guys are doing. These are very much a cut above production-level handguns.

You won't get any argument from me there. I have a little experience with the Valor, and it definitely has a place on my to-buy list.

carry on · November 22, 2014, 06:31 PM

If u cant handle the looks of a G-20 then I would recommend the Kimber.

agtman · November 22, 2014, 07:45 PM

Well, a customized Delta Elite is nice too.

Vic Tibbets custom DE.

roklok · November 24, 2014, 03:56 PM

I picked up a Kimber TLE 10mm a couple months ago. I am happy with it, best case head support of the 1911 10s. Out of the box, it would not chamber a round, the extractor tension was much to high. I adjusted the extractor, and it has not malfunctioned yet with 100 rounds or so factory ammo, including DT hardcast. I have had a couple failures to feed with hot handloads (180 grain @1370 FPS), I think the slide is outrunning the mag, it is always on the last round in the mag. I have a 24 pound recoil spring and a couple wilson mags on order to see if the issue resolves.

Bart Noir · November 25, 2014, 03:02 PM

I hung onto my Glock 29 SF and my G 20 SF, but sold my S&W 1076. So that tells something of my view of Glocks, once they modified the grips to fit me. Well, maybe to fit others also.

I was not enthusiastic about the Tangfolio 10mm and sold it.

But this Grand Power in any caliber has me interested. It looks like the pricing will be quite nice in the USA, unless something horrible happens to the exchange rate between the US Dollar and the Euro.

I'll be keeping my eyes open for the 10 mm GP.

Bart Noir

Viper99 · November 27, 2014, 04:43 PM

My local. Ffl ha a saw 1006 in very good condition but want 659 for it.

Bongo Boy · December 10, 2014, 11:56 PM

The EAA Witness Hunter is a very nice pistol. It is an all-steel frame double-stack with grip width very clost to a standard 1911 (1/8" wider, approx). It is very well machined and finished, exceptionally accurate and very well designed overall for 10mm.

It isn't perfect. The trigger is good out of the box, gets very good after 1,000 rds, but the trigger lever itself, at least on mine, has a lot of lateral play. This hasn't had any practical downside, but it's an aesthetic downside. The adjustable rear sight is quite nice, but mine tends to loosen over time--it also retains the firing pin block spring...so removing the rear sight means an insert has to be installed, near as I can tell, to retain that pin block spring.

Other than those two items--I love the gun. To me, it's really very much a 1911, with the added benefit of using the 10mm case size to advantage to pack 15 rds in a 1911 sized package.

To me, the single stack 10mm pistols such as the Smith 10xx series and the Delta miss out on a nice aspect of 10mm, and I owned and loved my P220 but wouldn't likely own another DA/SA gun as the configuration serves no purpose for me. Given what we know can be done with 10mm, I think the Dan Wesson Elite is the apex for a 1911 design, and Glock has proven what can be done with a compact double-stack. Somewhere in between the two, but far closer to the DW, is the EAA Witness Hunter, at a price far more working people might find approachable than the Elite.

I personally prefer the Glock 29 over any other handgun I own, except the M&P 45c. The Witness Hunter is a beautiful steel longer-slide toy I find a fun diversion however.

Peter M. Eick · December 11, 2014, 02:13 PM

I agree the Witness makes a nice hunter. I feel it mixes well with my 610. Between the two I figure I have the best of both worlds for hot 10mm shooting. (Unless I did out my KKM G20 but that is not a factory gun setup).

agtman · December 11, 2014, 04:44 PM

Those Tanfoglio Hunters look great, guys.

If I didn't have such trepidations about EAA's customer service - should the gun ever have a problem - I'd want to get one. The Hunter looks like it would make for an awesome hog pistol, even without some optic attached to it.

Bongo Boy · December 14, 2014, 10:54 PM

..and that's another nice thing---those 4 holes in the frame are tapped so mounting optics can be done without too much trouble, although you might have to have your own mount made. The Tanfoglio mount that fits those holes is readily available, but it's intended for a different Tang AFAIK. I bought one, mounted a red dot, then discovered the slide can't be removed due to no clearance btw the rear adjustable and the mount.

As for customer service, I only had one encounter with them and it was 100%. On the Hunter, the recoil spring guide is a 2-piece unit pinned together with a roll pin. The aft piece of the guide is designed to distribute the recoil over a large reinforced area of the frame. My pin sheared for some bizarre reason, and I asked customer service for a new pin. A complete recoil guide assembly showed up at the door about 5 days later (and it hasn't had any problems).

T-90 · December 15, 2014, 01:01 AM

I know years ago the Glock 20 had the most over all firepower in a semi-auto pistol. That is potential ft-Ibs of energy combined with the magazine capacity.

Peter M. Eick · December 15, 2014, 11:22 AM

Interesting point T-90. I thought my Witness hunter had the same mag capacity as my G20 and with a longer barrel it should have more power on tap.

Are you sure that the Witness mags have less capacity than a G20?

T-90 · December 15, 2014, 05:11 PM

I am not as familiar with the Witness models. What capacity does yours have? I know the Glock 20 has 15+1, but like I implied my info is from several years back. I would be interested in taking a look at the Witness. I know they make good quality products.

jr24 · December 15, 2014, 06:46 PM

Guessing the OP isn't involved in this thread anymore (from October) but I'll say that I just got my RIA Tactical 10mm out today and it shot really, really, well. As usual.

It has just one issue, doesn't like to feed the first round with a full mag (I'm not sure why, but its a range plinker so I don't care), runs weak and stout rounds like a top though, great gun.

Astocks2622 · December 16, 2014, 01:01 AM

well, I started my 10mm journey with a base model witness full size. was a very reliable gun, good shooter, soft recoil. then the slide cracked. (the early witnesses had a fairly square slide & lots of meat. the model I had had a scalloped slide. the material was removed starting just behind the ejection port, & that's where it cracked. My experience with EAA support was good. they replaced my slide with the equivalent of the Witness Match Slide (squared long-slide) & gave me an extra mag. I had reliability issues after that, so sold it to buy something else.

my next foray into 10mm was the rock island TAC 1911 II FS in 10mm. the gun looked good, but was unreliable. sometimes the first few rounds would nosedive, sometimes it would stove pipe, & recoil was significantly more than the witness. I will say that Armscor/Rock Island's Customer Service was phenomenal. first, I was the second owner, made that clear when i contacted them about my reliability issues. they said no problem, paid shipping both ways & tried some polishing. about 2 months after I got it back, the guide rod slipped & gouged the frame. I sent it back & they ultimately replaced the entire gun... & included 2 extra mags. incredible service for a 2nd owner. I wish I could have gotten that gun to run right, but it never did, & I sold it.

the next 10mm I'll be getting (with my Obama tax return) is either the EAA Witness Stock 1 or Witness Match. I think I'll get the Stock 1 so if i ever decide to shoot competition, I can shoot Stock Class. I have shot the match, & its trigger is not quite as good as a nicely tuned 1911... but its not much worse either.
Nothing quite like a 14+1 high quality DA/SA soft shooting 10mm!

Ulfberht · January 17, 2015, 04:11 PM

Save your money for a Sig P220 in 10mm.

saleen322 · January 17, 2015, 04:21 PM

^^^This^^^ I am waiting for one. According to a post I read, they are supposed to start shipping Mar/Apr of this year.

https://www.lipseys.com/announcement...GSAUERP22010mm

kcub · January 17, 2015, 06:20 PM

I have a Wilson and it's a great gun, but I don't buy nor recommend Wilson since they lied to me regarding another build.

I'd go for the Nighthawk Heinie Longslide.

November 2, 2014, 10:19 AM	#52
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Aww, Mike, the DW is miles better & then some over the Kimber and the firing pin lock on the Kimber is big part of the reason. If you put each of these in your hands, you'd agree immediately. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

November 2, 2014, 10:36 AM	#53
AustinTX Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2010 Posts: 2,145	Thinking about getting one of these at some point. STI does a really fine job with their guns. The DW Razorback is a lot nicer to look at, though -- and a lot less expensive. Last edited by AustinTX; November 2, 2014 at 10:46 AM.

November 2, 2014, 02:56 PM	#56
smee78 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 2,918	For 10mm I went with the S&W 1076 & 1006 for my bottom feeders. Built like a tank and a nice single stack mag. __________________ We know exactly where one cow with Mad-cow-disease is located, among the millions and millions of cows in America, but we haven't got a clue where thousands of illegal immigrants and terrorists are

November 2, 2014, 03:03 PM	#57
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I've had my 1006 since 1994, I think. My buddy bought it new in 1992 on my advice and his wife decided to make him sell it to me a bit later. It took him a decade to shed that woman, but good for him. Mine is dang near a safe queen. It's not as friendly to shoot as my Glock 29 and it throws brass across the county even with a replacement Wolff recoil spring. And the trigger is two-way horrendous and I can't shoot it as accurately as my G29. I love Smith & Wesson 1st, 2nd & 3rd Gen pistols and I have six of them, but the 1006 barely sees the light of day. Pride of ownership is high... but I hardly shoot it anymore. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

November 25, 2014, 03:02 PM	#62
Bart Noir Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2000 Location: Puget Sound, USA Posts: 2,215	I hung onto my Glock 29 SF and my G 20 SF, but sold my S&W 1076. So that tells something of my view of Glocks, once they modified the grips to fit me. Well, maybe to fit others also. I was not enthusiastic about the Tangfolio 10mm and sold it. But this Grand Power in any caliber has me interested. It looks like the pricing will be quite nice in the USA, unless something horrible happens to the exchange rate between the US Dollar and the Euro. I'll be keeping my eyes open for the 10 mm GP. Bart Noir __________________ Be of good cheer and mindful of your gun muzzle!

November 22, 2014, 06:31 PM	#59
carry on Junior Member Join Date: November 21, 2014 Location: florida Posts: 8	If u cant handle the looks of a G-20 then I would recommend the Kimber.

November 22, 2014, 07:45 PM	#60
agtman Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: midwest Posts: 2,374	Well, a customized Delta Elite is nice too. Vic Tibbets custom DE.

November 24, 2014, 03:56 PM	#61
roklok Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2008 Location: Fort Yukon, Alaska Posts: 735	I picked up a Kimber TLE 10mm a couple months ago. I am happy with it, best case head support of the 1911 10s. Out of the box, it would not chamber a round, the extractor tension was much to high. I adjusted the extractor, and it has not malfunctioned yet with 100 rounds or so factory ammo, including DT hardcast. I have had a couple failures to feed with hot handloads (180 grain @1370 FPS), I think the slide is outrunning the mag, it is always on the last round in the mag. I have a 24 pound recoil spring and a couple wilson mags on order to see if the issue resolves.

November 27, 2014, 04:43 PM	#63
Viper99 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2010 Location: CT Posts: 846	My local. Ffl ha a saw 1006 in very good condition but want 659 for it.

December 10, 2014, 11:56 PM	#64
Bongo Boy Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2008 Location: Colo Spgs CO Posts: 517	The EAA Witness Hunter is a very nice pistol. It is an all-steel frame double-stack with grip width very clost to a standard 1911 (1/8" wider, approx). It is very well machined and finished, exceptionally accurate and very well designed overall for 10mm. It isn't perfect. The trigger is good out of the box, gets very good after 1,000 rds, but the trigger lever itself, at least on mine, has a lot of lateral play. This hasn't had any practical downside, but it's an aesthetic downside. The adjustable rear sight is quite nice, but mine tends to loosen over time--it also retains the firing pin block spring...so removing the rear sight means an insert has to be installed, near as I can tell, to retain that pin block spring. Other than those two items--I love the gun. To me, it's really very much a 1911, with the added benefit of using the 10mm case size to advantage to pack 15 rds in a 1911 sized package. To me, the single stack 10mm pistols such as the Smith 10xx series and the Delta miss out on a nice aspect of 10mm, and I owned and loved my P220 but wouldn't likely own another DA/SA gun as the configuration serves no purpose for me. Given what we know can be done with 10mm, I think the Dan Wesson Elite is the apex for a 1911 design, and Glock has proven what can be done with a compact double-stack. Somewhere in between the two, but far closer to the DW, is the EAA Witness Hunter, at a price far more working people might find approachable than the Elite. I personally prefer the Glock 29 over any other handgun I own, except the M&P 45c. The Witness Hunter is a beautiful steel longer-slide toy I find a fun diversion however. __________________ NRA Benefactor Member “If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner.” T Bankhead "I think only the authorities should have weapons." The New American Electorate Last edited by Bongo Boy; December 11, 2014 at 12:08 AM.

December 11, 2014, 02:13 PM	#65
Peter M. Eick Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,991	I agree the Witness makes a nice hunter. I feel it mixes well with my 610. Between the two I figure I have the best of both worlds for hot 10mm shooting. (Unless I did out my KKM G20 but that is not a factory gun setup). __________________ 10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!

December 11, 2014, 04:44 PM	#66
agtman Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: midwest Posts: 2,374	Those Tanfoglio Hunters look great, guys. If I didn't have such trepidations about EAA's customer service - should the gun ever have a problem - I'd want to get one. The Hunter looks like it would make for an awesome hog pistol, even without some optic attached to it.

December 14, 2014, 10:54 PM	#67
Bongo Boy Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2008 Location: Colo Spgs CO Posts: 517	..and that's another nice thing---those 4 holes in the frame are tapped so mounting optics can be done without too much trouble, although you might have to have your own mount made. The Tanfoglio mount that fits those holes is readily available, but it's intended for a different Tang AFAIK. I bought one, mounted a red dot, then discovered the slide can't be removed due to no clearance btw the rear adjustable and the mount. As for customer service, I only had one encounter with them and it was 100%. On the Hunter, the recoil spring guide is a 2-piece unit pinned together with a roll pin. The aft piece of the guide is designed to distribute the recoil over a large reinforced area of the frame. My pin sheared for some bizarre reason, and I asked customer service for a new pin. A complete recoil guide assembly showed up at the door about 5 days later (and it hasn't had any problems). __________________ NRA Benefactor Member “If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner.” T Bankhead "I think only the authorities should have weapons." The New American Electorate

December 15, 2014, 01:01 AM	#68
T-90 Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2011 Posts: 145	I know years ago the Glock 20 had the most over all firepower in a semi-auto pistol. That is potential ft-Ibs of energy combined with the magazine capacity.

December 15, 2014, 11:22 AM	#69
Peter M. Eick Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,991	Interesting point T-90. I thought my Witness hunter had the same mag capacity as my G20 and with a longer barrel it should have more power on tap. Are you sure that the Witness mags have less capacity than a G20? __________________ 10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!

December 15, 2014, 05:11 PM	#70
T-90 Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2011 Posts: 145	I am not as familiar with the Witness models. What capacity does yours have? I know the Glock 20 has 15+1, but like I implied my info is from several years back. I would be interested in taking a look at the Witness. I know they make good quality products.

December 15, 2014, 06:46 PM	#71
jr24 Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2011 Posts: 870	Guessing the OP isn't involved in this thread anymore (from October) but I'll say that I just got my RIA Tactical 10mm out today and it shot really, really, well. As usual. It has just one issue, doesn't like to feed the first round with a full mag (I'm not sure why, but its a range plinker so I don't care), runs weak and stout rounds like a top though, great gun.

December 16, 2014, 01:01 AM	#72
Astocks2622 Member Join Date: February 1, 2014 Posts: 97	well, I started my 10mm journey with a base model witness full size. was a very reliable gun, good shooter, soft recoil. then the slide cracked. (the early witnesses had a fairly square slide & lots of meat. the model I had had a scalloped slide. the material was removed starting just behind the ejection port, & that's where it cracked. My experience with EAA support was good. they replaced my slide with the equivalent of the Witness Match Slide (squared long-slide) & gave me an extra mag. I had reliability issues after that, so sold it to buy something else. my next foray into 10mm was the rock island TAC 1911 II FS in 10mm. the gun looked good, but was unreliable. sometimes the first few rounds would nosedive, sometimes it would stove pipe, & recoil was significantly more than the witness. I will say that Armscor/Rock Island's Customer Service was phenomenal. first, I was the second owner, made that clear when i contacted them about my reliability issues. they said no problem, paid shipping both ways & tried some polishing. about 2 months after I got it back, the guide rod slipped & gouged the frame. I sent it back & they ultimately replaced the entire gun... & included 2 extra mags. incredible service for a 2nd owner. I wish I could have gotten that gun to run right, but it never did, & I sold it. the next 10mm I'll be getting (with my Obama tax return) is either the EAA Witness Stock 1 or Witness Match. I think I'll get the Stock 1 so if i ever decide to shoot competition, I can shoot Stock Class. I have shot the match, & its trigger is not quite as good as a nicely tuned 1911... but its not much worse either. Nothing quite like a 14+1 high quality DA/SA soft shooting 10mm!

January 17, 2015, 04:11 PM	#73
Ulfberht Junior Member Join Date: January 17, 2015 Location: Valhöll Posts: 5	Save your money for a Sig P220 in 10mm.

January 17, 2015, 04:21 PM	#74
saleen322 Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2010 Posts: 778	^^^This^^^ I am waiting for one. According to a post I read, they are supposed to start shipping Mar/Apr of this year. https://www.lipseys.com/announcement...GSAUERP22010mm

January 17, 2015, 06:20 PM	#75
kcub Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 3,318	I have a Wilson and it's a great gun, but I don't buy nor recommend Wilson since they lied to me regarding another build. I'd go for the Nighthawk Heinie Longslide.