Lever vs. Bolt - Page 3

upstate81 · June 19, 2015, 06:38 AM

Eastbank, i agree with you on the remington pump rifles. I have a 3006 chambered gun that i shot my second buck with. Has some very elegant wood and blueing. Fast shots are great on deer drives and is plenty accurate (normally 1.5 inch at 100 with win. power points) when i do my part. Not to mention how much easier it is to scope and doesnt loose its handling or maneuverability like a lever action when scoped. However the savage 99 carries with a scope quite nicely especially a weaver k4.

mehavey · June 19, 2015, 07:05 AM

The Savage 99 is an elegantly lethal lady wearing a classic little black dress.
(as compared to the Marlin as a great broad who is all she appears to be.)

Audrey Hepburn v Bette Midler

stubbicatt · June 19, 2015, 10:18 AM

Mostly I enjoy plinking from my hind legs. For that I really enjoy my 1873 Uberti in 357 magnum.

For shooting from prone, I prefer bolt actioned rifles, as they are easier to shoot in that position.

For some reason, psychological no doubt, I find that I tend to take a little more care in shot execution with bolt or lever rifles than I tend to do for semi autos. Perhaps that is the same reason I find my bolt rifles to be a bit more accurate than my "shell shuckers."

I have not tried any of the more modern lever actions, which feed from a vertical magazine. They might be swell also.

osbornk · June 19, 2015, 05:44 PM

Regardless of the merits, to me, a lever is more fun and that is why I shoot.

eastbank · June 19, 2015, 07:00 PM

as long as you are shooting,thats what counts. i like to spend a afternoon shooting a repo .58 civil war rifle in a local querry shooting at large rocks out to 400yrs with mini balls. i don,t hit that meny, but i don,t give a s*it as i,m having a blast. eastbank.

Tony Z · June 19, 2015, 07:40 PM

Has already been said, but I'll say it again: all my favorite guns are lever actions!

AK103K · June 19, 2015, 07:48 PM

Hey, I like the levers too. I like shooting any and all of them.

I just consider the lever guns to be more range toys than something serious. Other, better choices for that.

orchemo · July 18, 2015, 04:52 PM

When I lived on my rural property we had a few Cougars around. Being western oregon, range across the meadow was about 70 yds. I kept an old Winchester 30-30 in the front closet for predator control.

Could be better options but the lever never let me down. Simple and easy

Now days for close up black bear hunting, I have a Winchester Big Bore in 375 Win. Nice rifle but the old 30-30 has a long legacy.

Husqvarna · July 19, 2015, 08:42 AM

9/10 i grab ny blr when goin huntin

Carries so much better

And they give you a smile when shooting so you shot more.

Shooting my bolts is great but it is more longrange stuff

Hunting with levers is more pure hunting

**44 AMP** · July 19, 2015, 10:57 AM

This is about opinions, and while everyone's opinions are completely valid, for them, a lot is being said here about entire classes of rifles, based on a single example of the type. And that, essentially makes them of little value, other than as they pertain to the specific rifle used as the example.

Light weight pistol caliber carbine lever guns are one example. Very fine guns for a lot of things, but don't imply ALL lever guns are like that, because they aren't.

The same goes for bolt actions, one example of the class does not even begin to cover the entire range.

I have personal experience with Winchester, Marlin, Savage and Browning lever guns, ranging from .22 to .45 cal. Tube fed and box mag fed.

Bolt guns from .22RF to .458 Win mag. Mauser, Remington, Ruger, Winchester, Springlfield, Krag, Arisaka, Schmidt Rubin, Moisin Nagant, Lee Enfield, and others.

The only thing they all have in common is a bolt action has a bolt handle, and a lever action has a lever.

If you are going to make comparisons, you have to stick to roughly comparable things.

A Browning BL-22 (one of the fastest lever guns ever made) compared to a Winchester M70 .458 Win Mag is a lever to bolt comparison, but the only valid conclusion from that is they both shoot.

stagpanther · July 19, 2015, 01:12 PM

I said levers are sexier than bolts--and still think that's true. : )

stubbicatt · July 20, 2015, 05:51 AM

I dunno. I recently acquired an 1888 manufactured Winchester Single Shot Rifle in 45-70 which, in my eye at least, is the ideal "crossover." Robust action/receiver, short lever that does not foul the ground in prone, chambered for a neat period cartridge, with a single set trigger. Too bad about that recoil!

I've seen fellas get some pretty stellar accuracy out of these old rifles loaded with the "holy black", rivaling many bolt actioned rifles, and while I am unaware of any particular tests, I suspect JMB's first patent long gun action is as strong, or stronger, than 2 lug, turn bolt actions commonly available.

To my way of seeing things, it is an attractive piece with a reputation for good accuracy, with a genuine antique provenance, that can still be enjoyed in the 21st century.

**44 AMP** · July 20, 2015, 12:35 PM

Quote:

I suspect JMB's first patent long gun action is as strong, or stronger, than 2 lug, turn bolt actions commonly available.

Possibly, other than the steel its made from, which might be the deciding factor.

Guns like the Winchester Hi Wall /low wall, and the modern Browning B78 and the Ruger No1s and No. 3s are usually classed as single shots, but they are actually lever action. The action is operated by a lever.

GeauxTide · July 22, 2015, 01:46 PM

Get the best of both worlds. BLR can be had in long or short action, 243 to Magnum. For your use, a 243 would be dandy. Short barrel, mild cartridge, and effective up to deer. I'm not much on rifles for home defense because of penetration.

ssn vet · July 22, 2015, 02:34 PM

I never saw anyone attempt to build a lever gun around the Win 300 Mag. or .338 Lapua cartridges.... and I never saw anyone compete in a long range shooting event with a lever action rifle.

Now I wonder why that is??

emcon5 · July 22, 2015, 02:39 PM

Quote:

I never saw anyone compete in a long range shooting event with a lever action rifle.

I have.

upstate81 · July 23, 2015, 07:01 AM

Curious on the outcome of that match?

j102 · July 23, 2015, 07:12 AM

I have both, and each type has its purpose. I enjoy lever actions much more.

stagpanther · July 23, 2015, 07:35 AM

I never saw John Wayne in a western using an M1--what's up with that?

**44 AMP** · July 23, 2015, 09:44 AM

Quote:

and I never saw anyone compete in a long range shooting event with a lever action rifle.

Cowboy side matches...depending on your definition of long range.

I've never seen anyone compete in a stock car race driving a 3/4 ton pickup truck. Your point is ?????

gb_in_ga · July 24, 2015, 03:53 PM

Ok, I'll throw in my 2 cents. I am an obligate southpaw, and I thus loathe using right handed bolt action rifles, they are just backwards for me. Since left handed bolts aren't all that common, I grew up using autoloaders and lever actions. Since I don't particularly need the extra power/range that bolt actions bring to the table, I find that lever actions fill the bill for me.

The Big D · July 25, 2015, 09:30 AM

Outside 200 yards, you'll have a lot more luck with a bolt than with a lever. Higher BC bullets + faster muzzle velocities equals flatter trajectories with far less windage. Windage is what causes misses for competent shooters at long range.

Inside 200 yards, levers with tubular magazines are flat out better for all serious applications. They're about twice as fast, tend to have cartridges with better terminal ballistics, and their downsides in terms of accuracy, lower peak pressure and allowable bolt thrust don't really come into play.

It's worth noting the VAST majority of rifle work occurs inside 200 yards.

emcon5 · July 25, 2015, 10:20 AM

Quote:

tend to have cartridges with better terminal ballistics

(citation needed).

The Big D · July 25, 2015, 10:50 AM

No citation needed. Big bore cartridges and flat point bullets (especially wide mepalts with sharp corners) have better terminal ballistics than spire points and round noses.

In other words, there's a VERY good reason they won't let you hunt cape buffalo with a .338 Lapua even though there's plenty of case capacity & energy there.

emcon5 · July 25, 2015, 12:40 PM

What cartridges are you talking about? The only "big bore" tube magazine lever guns I have ever seen are .45-70, .444 Marlin or .45 LC. While the first 2 are certainly hard hitting, the vast majority of tube-mag lever guns are NOT either of those two calibers, but good-old .30-30WCF. You got me curious, so I looked at the lever action rifles category on Gunbroker, filtering by cartridge, there are currently 154 guns available in .30-30, 17 in .35 Rem, 22 in .45-70 and 3 in .444 Marlin.

So lever action tube magazine guns "tend to be" .30-30, which by no stretch of the imagination has "better terminal ballistics" than damn near any .30 centerfire rifle cartridge designed since the Spanish–American War.

Equal terminal ballistics maybe, to some, certainly adequate for 200 yard deer hunting, but no way "better".

To make the claim that tube-mag lever guns "tend to have cartridges with better terminal ballistics" is absurd.

July 18, 2015, 04:52 PM	#58
orchemo Junior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Posts: 9	Lever When I lived on my rural property we had a few Cougars around. Being western oregon, range across the meadow was about 70 yds. I kept an old Winchester 30-30 in the front closet for predator control. Could be better options but the lever never let me down. Simple and easy Now days for close up black bear hunting, I have a Winchester Big Bore in 375 Win. Nice rifle but the old 30-30 has a long legacy.

July 19, 2015, 10:57 AM	#60
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,856	This is about opinions, and while everyone's opinions are completely valid, for them, a lot is being said here about entire classes of rifles, based on a single example of the type. And that, essentially makes them of little value, other than as they pertain to the specific rifle used as the example. Light weight pistol caliber carbine lever guns are one example. Very fine guns for a lot of things, but don't imply ALL lever guns are like that, because they aren't. The same goes for bolt actions, one example of the class does not even begin to cover the entire range. I have personal experience with Winchester, Marlin, Savage and Browning lever guns, ranging from .22 to .45 cal. Tube fed and box mag fed. Bolt guns from .22RF to .458 Win mag. Mauser, Remington, Ruger, Winchester, Springlfield, Krag, Arisaka, Schmidt Rubin, Moisin Nagant, Lee Enfield, and others. The only thing they all have in common is a bolt action has a bolt handle, and a lever action has a lever. If you are going to make comparisons, you have to stick to roughly comparable things. A Browning BL-22 (one of the fastest lever guns ever made) compared to a Winchester M70 .458 Win Mag is a lever to bolt comparison, but the only valid conclusion from that is they both shoot. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 19, 2015, 01:12 PM	#61
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,794	I said levers are sexier than bolts--and still think that's true. : ) __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

July 22, 2015, 01:46 PM	#64
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	Browning BLR Get the best of both worlds. BLR can be had in long or short action, 243 to Magnum. For your use, a 243 would be dandy. Short barrel, mild cartridge, and effective up to deer. I'm not much on rifles for home defense because of penetration.

July 23, 2015, 07:35 AM	#69
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,794	I never saw John Wayne in a western using an M1--what's up with that? __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

June 19, 2015, 06:38 AM	#51
upstate81 Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2011 Location: NY Posts: 801	Eastbank, i agree with you on the remington pump rifles. I have a 3006 chambered gun that i shot my second buck with. Has some very elegant wood and blueing. Fast shots are great on deer drives and is plenty accurate (normally 1.5 inch at 100 with win. power points) when i do my part. Not to mention how much easier it is to scope and doesnt loose its handling or maneuverability like a lever action when scoped. However the savage 99 carries with a scope quite nicely especially a weaver k4.

June 19, 2015, 07:05 AM	#52
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,898	The Savage 99 is an elegantly lethal lady wearing a classic little black dress. (as compared to the Marlin as a great broad who is all she appears to be.) Audrey Hepburn v Bette Midler

June 19, 2015, 10:18 AM	#53
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	Mostly I enjoy plinking from my hind legs. For that I really enjoy my 1873 Uberti in 357 magnum. For shooting from prone, I prefer bolt actioned rifles, as they are easier to shoot in that position. For some reason, psychological no doubt, I find that I tend to take a little more care in shot execution with bolt or lever rifles than I tend to do for semi autos. Perhaps that is the same reason I find my bolt rifles to be a bit more accurate than my "shell shuckers." I have not tried any of the more modern lever actions, which feed from a vertical magazine. They might be swell also.

June 19, 2015, 05:44 PM	#54
osbornk Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2012 Location: Mountains of Appalachia Posts: 1,598	Regardless of the merits, to me, a lever is more fun and that is why I shoot.

June 19, 2015, 07:00 PM	#55
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	as long as you are shooting,thats what counts. i like to spend a afternoon shooting a repo .58 civil war rifle in a local querry shooting at large rocks out to 400yrs with mini balls. i don,t hit that meny, but i don,t give a s*it as i,m having a blast. eastbank.

June 19, 2015, 07:40 PM	#56
Tony Z Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Location: North Central Pennsyltucky Posts: 749	Has already been said, but I'll say it again: all my favorite guns are lever actions!

June 19, 2015, 07:48 PM	#57
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	Hey, I like the levers too. I like shooting any and all of them. I just consider the lever guns to be more range toys than something serious. Other, better choices for that.

July 19, 2015, 08:42 AM	#59
Husqvarna Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2012 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,000	9/10 i grab ny blr when goin huntin Carries so much better And they give you a smile when shooting so you shot more. Shooting my bolts is great but it is more longrange stuff Hunting with levers is more pure hunting

July 20, 2015, 05:51 AM	#62
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	I dunno. I recently acquired an 1888 manufactured Winchester Single Shot Rifle in 45-70 which, in my eye at least, is the ideal "crossover." Robust action/receiver, short lever that does not foul the ground in prone, chambered for a neat period cartridge, with a single set trigger. Too bad about that recoil! I've seen fellas get some pretty stellar accuracy out of these old rifles loaded with the "holy black", rivaling many bolt actioned rifles, and while I am unaware of any particular tests, I suspect JMB's first patent long gun action is as strong, or stronger, than 2 lug, turn bolt actions commonly available. To my way of seeing things, it is an attractive piece with a reputation for good accuracy, with a genuine antique provenance, that can still be enjoyed in the 21st century.

July 22, 2015, 02:34 PM	#65
ssn vet Member Join Date: March 3, 2008 Posts: 42	I never saw anyone attempt to build a lever gun around the Win 300 Mag. or .338 Lapua cartridges.... and I never saw anyone compete in a long range shooting event with a lever action rifle. Now I wonder why that is??

July 23, 2015, 07:01 AM	#67
upstate81 Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2011 Location: NY Posts: 801	Curious on the outcome of that match?

July 23, 2015, 07:12 AM	#68
j102 Member Join Date: April 22, 2015 Posts: 64	I have both, and each type has its purpose. I enjoy lever actions much more.

July 24, 2015, 03:53 PM	#71
gb_in_ga Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2005 Location: Pensacola, Fl Posts: 3,092	Ok, I'll throw in my 2 cents. I am an obligate southpaw, and I thus loathe using right handed bolt action rifles, they are just backwards for me. Since left handed bolts aren't all that common, I grew up using autoloaders and lever actions. Since I don't particularly need the extra power/range that bolt actions bring to the table, I find that lever actions fill the bill for me. __________________ COME AND TAKE IT http://www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/batgon.htm Formerly lived in Ga, but now I'm back in Tx! Aaaand, now I'm off to Fla...

July 25, 2015, 09:30 AM	#72
The Big D Junior member Join Date: July 19, 2015 Posts: 173	Outside 200 yards, you'll have a lot more luck with a bolt than with a lever. Higher BC bullets + faster muzzle velocities equals flatter trajectories with far less windage. Windage is what causes misses for competent shooters at long range. Inside 200 yards, levers with tubular magazines are flat out better for all serious applications. They're about twice as fast, tend to have cartridges with better terminal ballistics, and their downsides in terms of accuracy, lower peak pressure and allowable bolt thrust don't really come into play. It's worth noting the VAST majority of rifle work occurs inside 200 yards. Last edited by The Big D; July 25, 2015 at 10:52 AM.

July 25, 2015, 10:50 AM	#74
The Big D Junior member Join Date: July 19, 2015 Posts: 173	No citation needed. Big bore cartridges and flat point bullets (especially wide mepalts with sharp corners) have better terminal ballistics than spire points and round noses. In other words, there's a VERY good reason they won't let you hunt cape buffalo with a .338 Lapua even though there's plenty of case capacity & energy there. Last edited by The Big D; July 25, 2015 at 11:07 AM.

July 25, 2015, 12:40 PM	#75
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	What cartridges are you talking about? The only "big bore" tube magazine lever guns I have ever seen are .45-70, .444 Marlin or .45 LC. While the first 2 are certainly hard hitting, the vast majority of tube-mag lever guns are NOT either of those two calibers, but good-old .30-30WCF. You got me curious, so I looked at the lever action rifles category on Gunbroker, filtering by cartridge, there are currently 154 guns available in .30-30, 17 in .35 Rem, 22 in .45-70 and 3 in .444 Marlin. So lever action tube magazine guns "tend to be" .30-30, which by no stretch of the imagination has "better terminal ballistics" than damn near any .30 centerfire rifle cartridge designed since the Spanish–American War. Equal terminal ballistics maybe, to some, certainly adequate for 200 yard deer hunting, but no way "better". To make the claim that tube-mag lever guns "tend to have cartridges with better terminal ballistics" is absurd.