S&W is at it again with more sellout.

[sks]

Some may already be aware but if not, here is an interesting article.

http://www.foxnews.com/national/121900/gunsuit_fnc.sml

Apparently S&W is continuing with it's sellout of American gun owners.

I recently got my January / February issue of American Handgunner and was appalled at the plea for mercy towards S&W. After writing to Cameron Hopkins, he and I had a several day exchange of emails. One thing he mentioned was that there were some rumors about S&W doing even more of a sellout (could this be it?)and that he felt he might have been duped by them in his article. Apparently so.

Here is a synopsis of the new agreement with Boston.

Sweeping Changes

The Boston settlement echoes many of the provisions of the federal agreement. Among the changes Smith & Wesson has or will be implementing:

External locking devices must be included in all the company's handguns within 60 days.

There must be internal locking devices on all guns within 24 months.

A second 'hidden' serial number must be provided by the manufacturer to counter criminals who obliterate serial numbers.

Within 12 months, handguns must be designed 'so they cannot be readily operated by a child under 6.

Gun dealers must wait for Brady Law background checks to be completed, even if they take longer than the waiting period limit required by state statutes.

A 14-day waiting period must be observed for multiple gun purchases. Under this provision, individual sales slips must be sent to the ATF for review before multiple sales can be processed.


I say keep the pressure on and let them die.

[BTR]

Didn't they already agree to all of this before?

[Onslaught]

External locking devices must be included in all the company's handguns within 60 days.

There must be internal locking devices on all guns within 24 months.

A second 'hidden' serial number must be provided by the manufacturer to counter criminals who obliterate serial numbers.

Within 12 months, handguns must be designed 'so they cannot be readily operated by a child under 6.

Gun dealers must wait for Brady Law background checks to be completed, even if they take longer than the waiting period limit required by state statutes.

A 14-day waiting period must be observed for multiple gun purchases. Under this provision, individual sales slips must be sent to the ATF for review before multiple sales can be processed. :barf: *danger, danger Will Robinson! Constitutional infringement imminent!*

[Lance Gothic]

Why not consider purchasing the company ourselves?
With all of the NRA members and gun owners associations
a thousand here, a thousand there, a few hundred thousand times adds up fairly fast.
Dodge got bailed out with a billion dollars. If this could be done for an industry where the collective product is responsible for a thousand fatalities per week (in this country alone) what about an effort to better educate, train and equip a market responsible for originally protecting "the American Dream".
The future hopes of this Country were built on the likes of Colt, Winchester, Ruger, Smith & Wesson. What scurvy knave professes otherwise? Are we all incapable of taking control of our destiny? Or are we to become scullery servants to false touts?
De oppresso liber!
Or have we forgotten the Constitution already?
By your leave.
Regards,
Lance Gothic
Shibumi

[George Hill]

You have got to be kidding...
S&W just went from SUCKS to BLOWS.

Okay - I changed my mind... S&W MUST DIE... Jeff Thomas is Right... The Old S&W we know and loved... that "Made Our Day"... Is dead. This Bodysnatcher in its place must be destroyed.

[enrious]

George, I didn't think it possible, but they both suck and blow.

Are other manufacturers, like Ruger and Remington, planning on implementing some of the same features/policies?

[sks]

Lance, one of the things that I mentioned to Cameron was that why don't we let S&W die on the vine and then their British owners will sell them off. Then some good Real American can purchase them and put all of their workers, plus some, back to work. I firmly believe that we are making a difference. This is one of the few times in my life that I've actually seen a public boycott really take affect.

As to whether the other gun manufacturers are leaning this way or not I've heard some rumors about that but have also heard that with what they have seen from the public's reaction, they are not going to follow suit. And I think that S&W has slit their own throat because Clinton and Reno are on their way out. Hopefully the new administration will back off on some of this junk.

What I can't believe is the CEO of S&W saying that this move was to help them sell more guns to the public. Give me a break! The last few gun shows I was at, no one was wanting any S&W products.

[355sigfan]

A second 'hidden' serial number must be provided by the manufacturer to counter criminals who obliterate serial numbers.

Most of what you put down is bad but this above listed feature is good. Think about it your gun is stolen and the serial number is removed as a cop I recover it off some perp but its serial numbers are scratched off so I don't know its yours. No problem just look for the hidden serial number and you get your gun back. I also like the idea of each gun leaving a fingerprint so too speak on the brass case. This would in no way hurt gun owners but criminals would be easier to track down.
PAT

[sks]

355sigfan,

How long do you think it will take for criminals to "find" the hidden serial numbers? Get real. And do you think most cops are going to return my gun? Gimme a break. Maybe they will have a choice and maybe department policy will make them donate it to the federal government's buy back program, etc.

As far as every gun leaving a fingerprint on the brass case, this already exists in the sense of the rifling marks left on a spent bullet. Has it helped in a considerable way. NO! Just something else to grab us by.

Easier to track down? I think just the opposite. They steal your gun and commit a crime. Who gets the blame? You! Then they steal my gun. Who gets the blame? Surprise! This is totally folly to me and just might make it easier for criminals to obscure their tracks. Imagine police investigating 20 Joe Citizens while the criminal laughs all the way to the bank.

IMHO, when you buy into the opinion that most of what is there is bad but "just thing one point of gun control is good", then you are on a slippery slope that is very steep.

[Der Grosse]

These postings are a microcosm of why gun-rights advocates are losing the hearts and minds of average Americans. I am simply amazed by the disproportionate amount of venom dripping from some of these replies. I too shudder at the thought of being at the mercy of potentially defective handprint technology (especially since we seem to be unable to perform the technologically simple task of accurately counting votes), but I am not offended at the thought of external/internal locks or a hidden serial number. Why should any of us care about, or fall on our swords for, these superficial measures?

And while I think that it is ridiculous that in our 21st Century web-world people have to wait 3 days for a Brady background-check, I think its a great idea to keep guns out of the hands of lunatics and felons. Why argue with this bit of prudence?

Further, while I have no problem with a citizen owning as many guns as he or she can afford, I do not think it unreasonable that a person ordering 30 glocks might have to wait for 14 days. Can anyone make an argument that this waiting period is unreasonable with a straight face? I don't think so.

Respectfully, even though I too fear the proverbial "slippery slope", I suggest that we pick our battles more carefully. I too want to preserve my right to bear arms, however I don't want to lose it because the average American thinks that we are all right-wing fanatics who are incapable of rational and/or civil discourse.

[fubsy]

what about two, four, five glocks.......why does it matter how many I buy.

Why is my name in a data base, why isnt the criminial with the revoked second amendment rights the one who has to be listed?.....why isnt the mentally ill listed, why is it that I the legal gun owner have to be listed?

I still remember a time when i could walk into a store and buy the rifle, the pistol, shotgun, or any combination and not have to go through this pc mess.

As far as venom dripping from these posts, yes it does get old and we all need to control our selves, but quite honestly Im sick and tired of giving these "anti- to the 2nd amendment of the constitution" folks any civility. They have pushed and pushed and they wont stop until we stop them.....there was a time maybe 5 years ago I might have agreed with you on that, but Ive reached the point were there is no give anymore....fubsy.



fubsy....

[hksigwalther]

They're just digging their hole deeper, that's all.

[bullfrog99]

how long before they lazer engrave the guns serial number on the firing pin so spent caseings can be traced back to the gun that fired it?

there is a point of stupidity to all things.

[Jeff OTMG]

I thought that Boston agreement was old news. It happened about a week and a half ago.

[Daniel Watters]

And while I think that it is ridiculous that in our 21st Century web-world people have to wait 3 days for a Brady background-check, I think its a great idea to keep guns out of the hands of lunatics and felons. Why argue with this bit of prudence?

The problem is that in mandating the receipt of a NICS approval, you leave the opening for a de facto ban on sales. Given NICS' track record of system 'downtime' ranging from hours to days, what is to stop longer stoppages, either accidental or purposeful? In some jurisdictions, CCW and NFA applicants can already tell horror stories of LE agencies purposefully refusing to act on their legally mandated paperwork.

[355sigfan]

sks


Your too paroind as a police officer if we find stolen property we will return it as we are required to by law. So long as you legally own the property in question. I also like the laser engraving on the firing pin idea. Again it just makes the gun easier to trace if used in a crime. Some one recently shot up my sergeants house almost killed his wife if we could idea the various pieces of brass we found if would have made the investigation much easier and we might actually catch the bastards. Also if your guns get stolen you have an obligation to report it. If you gun is stolen and used in a crime and you did not report it stolen as soon as you found out I don't have much sympathy for you. Stolen guns supply most of the black market guns used by criminals in fact its 90% according to UCR stats. So criminals are armed in part because of carless gun owners not taking any measures to secure their weapons when not in use, be that a gun safe or trigger locks. Most guns that are stolen are the ones in the night stand drawer or in the closet not in a safe or with a trigger lock on it.

Back to the hidden serial number thing contrary to popular belief criminals are not that smart and they probably wouldn't be able to located the number especially if you use new technology to mask the number and it has too be read with a black light.
PAT

[iso1]

By the way, I've seen some people complaining about magazines accepting ads from S&W.

I say, let the gun rags take all the ads from them they can handle!

See, ads cost money. And S&W needs money coming in to keep paying for the ads. If they keep paying for ads with no money coming in, well....dead that much faster!

So, the equation is something like:

(diddly squat coming in)-(advertising expenses)-(retooling expenses to comply with sellouts)-(no preferential treatment by governmental agencies)=TRAITOR'S DEATH

[magnum_force]

May be if the cops really did their jobs instead of spending so much time busting people for petty crimes, then our guns would not be stolen by thieves in the first place.

We should BOYCOTT S&W because if we accept their bullsh_it, then they will think up new bullsh_it for us to deal with in the future. All the little things we give in to may lead to the death of the 2nd Amendment.

The cost for the S&W's sweeping changes will fall upon the consumer. We will have to pay more for guns. Fck that!

Remember to BOYCOTT S&W. These bastards must pay for their sins.

[sks]

Der Grosse, are you sure that you are a gun owner and not a lurker to TFL? You don't sound very convinced at all about the 2nd Amendment. Just let them add more to us, who cares.

How about we enforce the thousands of gun laws now on the books. How about we bury in the bottom of jails those that commit crimes with firearms.

You must be very new to firearms if you think the Brady check is a good idea. How many people has it saved? How much good has it done? zip, zilch, nothing, nada, zero.

You must be way out there if you think we are losing the hearts and minds of the average American. Gun control wasn't even and issue in the election. And NRA membership is at an all time high. We are winning. The studies prove it and reality backs that up.

I can with a straight face say that your argument about waiting the extra time for my 30 Glocks is full of fallacy. As Fubsy said, where is the limit? Is it when you get three guns, twelve guns, two guns? Who decides that issue? The government? The gun store owner? S&W?


355Sigfan, with all due respect, I don't envision cops rushing to return my stolen gun. In some cases they might but not in all. I have the utmost respect for cops doing their job right. But I've got the highest disdain for those that are jerks and abuse their power. And there are plenty.

After all of the paperwork and new government forms that will accompany this ruling, I might get my gun in 2 years time. What about the police departments that were melting down stolen guns even though the owners could prove it was theirs. Did happen lots on those buy back programs. In Chicago a man lost an old original Colt Peacemaker because some punk kid stole it and turned it in for tennis shoes. The guy totally proved it was his but nope the thing was cut up and melted. Nice precedent.

Maybe it won't be the cops so much themselves, but the system that will make them do it. At any rate, I don't trust them.

As to finding the hidden serial numbers I don't think that will be much of a trick. Will cops know where the numbers are? If so then I can tell you now that the criminals will also know. That is reality.

[Wallew]

I too, have had several emails back and forth with Cameron regarding S&W. He was told, in no uncertain terms that the S&W agreement was the work of Shultz. He was led to believe that now that Shultz was gone, things can get back to 'normal'. He was also led to believe that S&W would readdress the contract after the election, with S&W hoping for a more 'sane' response from the Justice department with a new administration. The Boston agreement shows all this to be false. And Cameron did tell me personally that he felt he had been duped. And he's not particularly happy about it. Everyone must realize that this article was written four plus months ago and that a lot can happen between the time the story is written to the time that the magazine hits the stands. And, even worse, the Boston story comes out right after the current mag hits the stands. TOO LATE.

S&W MUST DIE!!

[sks]

Wallew, very well said and that is the truth of the matter.

[Der Grosse]

SKS: While I don't know what a "luker" is (I will assume it is something unpleasant), I can assure you that I am a gun owner and a believer in the second amendment. Would you like to question my patriotism next?

As far as the Brady background checks, we both agree that it is ridiculous to make people wait for 3 days (although as a resident of Michigan, I have never had to). Nevertheless, background checks are a good idea and maybe you should focus your wrath on the lack of federal funding for a computer system which would enable instant checks, although I will guess that you are one of those people who believe they can have tax cuts AND a more efficient government.

Which leads me to my next point. I am all for enforcing the guns laws which we have now (and not passing any new ones until we do), however that is not a cheap proposition either. Prosecutors are not bleeding-heart liberals, but they cannot send people to prison if there is no room because the jails are filled with non-violent drug offenders. Would you like to contribute to setting murderers and rapists free because we have new mandatory gun sentencing laws? Do you want to hope and pray that you are never charged with some technical non-intent necessary felony (remember that old legal maxim: ignorance of the law is no excuse) or that your son never engages in some stupid youthfull indiscretion?

As to how many guns I can buy at once, all I can say is that if I can still buy a single gun instantly, I can wait on the other 29. This could possibly be inconvenient (if I were planning on arming a football team), but no one said that being a responsible member of society might not be personally inconvenient once in a while.

By the way, you're dreaming if you think that we aren't one more "Columbine" away from serious limitations on second amendments rights. And no, I don't think that "Columbine" had anything to do with guns. It had a lot more to do with the lack of respect for others which you have so patently displayed here.

I appreciate everyone's angst over S&W, but what side did you really think a foreign-owned corporation would come down on? Second Amendment vs. profits. Hmmmm? Must have taken them ten seconds to figure that one out.

[sks]

Lurker is not necessarily unpleasant unless you are offended by the term. What it means is that you are not what you project yourself to be and that you are hanging around the place. Patriotism? I've not questioned that nor do I intend to. Sorry if you feel threatened by the above question.

But you sure did say it right and clasify yourself. Yes I do think you can cut taxes and have a more efficient government. It's called cutting waste. EVERY succesful business does it every day. S&W is finding out about running a business right about now. If the Federal Government was a business it would have filed bankrupcy long ago.

If you feel comfortable with the waiting period then you are lot more free with your 2nd Amendment right than I am. I do not think at all that background checks are a good idea. Why have them if they are not working and placing unnecessary paperwork on local officials? No reason.

You mention buying one gun or a foot ball team worth. Where does the amount you have to wait for begin? At two guns or three? It is very scary to leave that to the discretion of a local official or the federal government. What if you want to buy a gun for yourself and your son for Christmas and were told that this will have to wait for 6 months. That is a multiple firearm purchase.

Then I'm dreaming because I don't see us as one Columbine away from serious limitations on my 2nd Amendment rights. What I do see is that people like you make us very close to accepting more and more government legislation.

Hey, if you are happy with it then go for it and just wait a week even if you don't have to.

How do you go from "non violent drug offenders" to "setting murderers and rapists free". I'm for enforcing existing laws on the books, drug laws, gun laws, all laws. If we start enforcing then we will see crime go down. It's very simple.

If S&W is comfortable being owned by a foreign company and wants to go that route then happy trials. But they are paying and will pay the price with us. Again, after they fold then maybe someone else can purchase them.

[444]

I have always wondered; What is the specific danger in multiple gun buys ? Why should this be some warning sign of anything ? I can think of plenty of reasons for buying more than one gun at a time. Gifts being one of them. There is a thread on here right now from a gentleman that wants to buy his three sons a handgun in memory of his recently departed mother. I can guarentee you that if I cashed the winning lotto ticket tomorrow I would be enroute to my favorite gun store to spend until I get tired of it. What if I wanted to buy a collection ? ........... Can someone cite a specific example of someone who had the cash to go in and buy several guns to commit a crime with ? Why would a felon buy guns at a dealer ? I am sure that a convicted felon has plenty of contacts to buy our stolen guns. As we have all known since we were able to think for ourselves, these laws only punish us and have absolutly no impact on crime.

[Craig Luna]

Multiple purchases are sometimes a flag of a "gun runner" of sorts. If it happens to be matched set of Browning Citoris then no problem. If someone is buying 3 Lorcins and a Ruger semiauto then something is probably wrong.

Even so there is no law against reselling (though I see selling one of my guns like cutting my hand off), they are trying to prevent it. That is why the BS gunshow loophole is also on the agenda.

I personally don't think the current agendas are targeting the 2nd but they will easily allow it in the future. I have to agree that we somehow need to get rid of gangbangers with illegal arms as long as my rights aren't hindered. The second my rights are denied then I see it as a problem.

NICs downtime is a problem and it is *supposedly* being used illegally to prevent sells at major shows.

-CAL