Lever vs. Bolt

[The Big D]

You're missing a few. Might want to read up on the .45-90 WCF, .50-110 WCF, .450 Alaskan, .50 Alaskan, .475 Turnbull etc. All 5 of those are dangerous game type stompers when chambered in a modern steel 1886 or a model 71. The two WCF chamberings I could buy a gun for today. The others are easy to order and they all have factory brass.

If you want to move down a power level, there's .45-70, .444 marlin, .450 marlin, .405 winchester, .348 winchester, etc. There are 348 WCFs are all over gunbroker - I see like 10 of them. And of course a million Marlin 1895Gs.

Lever guns will go as powerful as as is practical (greater then 5000 ft-lbs if you want), and flat point bullets work better than round noses and FAR better than spire points - hence why pretty much everyone has gone to flat noses on their dangerous game double bullets.

You'll note I never said anything about .30-30 - that's you projecting

[emcon5]

You know what, I messed up the numbers on Gunbroker. I searched for lever action, then filtered on the lever action rifles category. This time I skipped the search and just browsed the lever gun category. There are actually a lot more lever guns that I posted, but the proportions are not changed much. There are still ~6 times as many .30-30s available (1040) as the most common of the rounds you listed, .45-70 (178). The others you listed there are 1 or 2 of each for your dangerous game loads, and a total of 95 combined for the four other "down a tier" rounds you mentioned. So all the rounds you listed, there are about 280 guns total on Gunbroker at the moment, compared to 1040 .30-30s.

You said:

levers with tubular magazines ..... tend to have cartridges with better terminal ballistics

This is simply not true. Levers with tubular magazines tend to be .30-30. Full stop. More powerful rounds certainly are available, that I am not arguing, but most lever guns are not chambered in them.

Let me fix it for you:

Inside 200 yards, levers with tubular magazines are flat out better for all serious applications. They're about twice as fast, are available in cartridges with better terminal ballistics, and their downsides in terms of accuracy, lower peak pressure and allowable bolt thrust don't really come into play.

That I agree with.

[stagpanther]

You're missing a few. Might want to read up on the .45-90 WCF, .50-110 WCF, .450 Alaskan, .50 Alaskan, .475 Turnbull etc. All 5 of those are dangerous game type stompers when chambered in a modern steel 1886 or a model 71. The two WCF chamberings I could buy a gun for today. The others are easy to order and they all have factory brass.

I've seen a couple of the 45-90's rifles and the--the cartridges look like long range ICBMs. How good could a plain ol 30-30 be? Fellow "gun nerd" here in Maine likes old style and seeing what they can do. http://www.downeastgunworks.com/long-distance-30-30/

[SARuger]

I like both.

Like most deer hunters I killed my first deer with a lever action 30-30 so there is a soft spot in my heart for a lever action. They are fun to shoot. I have a 94AE 30-30 with peep sights just for plinking, its cheap, accurate and dependable.

With all that said, I will take a bolt gun hunting any day over a lever. Its a simple accurate platform. I like being able to reload with an extra mag if needed than feeding cartridges into a tube. They will take a beating too.

For me, the bolt gun is like the SA revolver, simple, tough, reliable......

[44 AMP]

Inside 200 yards, levers with tubular magazines are flat out better for all serious applications.

A bold "flat out" statement of OPINION, the truth of which, if any, relies entirely on the speaker's definitions of "better" and "serious".

If its your opinion, say so, and we'll be fine. If you present it as fact, be prepared to back it up. A single verifiable exception renders a blanket statement null & void.

In other words, there's a VERY good reason they won't let you hunt cape buffalo with a .338 Lapua even though there's plenty of case capacity & energy there.

Yes, the very good reason is that hunting cape buffalo is sport hunting. Sports have rules, set by the governing body, in this case, the govts of nations which allow cape buffalo hunting. There may be exceptions, but as far as I know, African cape buffalo hunting requires at least a .37 caliber rifle in a few places and a .40 caliber or larger in others.

ME, MV, etc., may be the rational behind the rules, and a cartridge might match or even exceed those numbers, but if it not covered in the written rule, you can't use it. Their game, their rules.

I'd like to point out, again, that sweeping blanket statements, such as "lever actions this..." and "bolt actions that...", are covering ALL guns and cartridges found in the action class. And since both actions can be found in many of the same cartridges (and if you wish to be totally accurate, "lever" guns can be found in ALL the "bolt gun" cartridges) blanket statements made about the cartridges are essentially irrelevant.

It is simply not valid to look at one, (or three) examples of a particular rifle designs and apply their characteristics to the entire class of guns.

Here's my criteria, I'm speaking of manually operated guns, where the barrel remains inline with the action when the action is open. If it uses a lever to open, its a lever action. If it uses a bolt handle to open, its a bolt action.
it an be a repeater, or a single shot. Rimfire or centerfire. Rifled or smoothbore. Everything else is an additional factor, allowing for further refinement of the classification.

And, if you are only interested in guns in current production, make a point of mentioning that, too, please.

[The Big D]

This isn't primarily a matter of opinion. It's a matter of verifiable, scientific facts. If you compare analogous lever gun cartridges to their recoil-equivalent bolt gun counterparts, you'll keep seeing the same thing over and over again. The bolt guns outperform the lever guns at long range, but the levers outperform the bolts up close.

Take for example the .348 Winchester vs. the .35 Whelen. Same recoil, same muzzle velocity, same energy, 1/100th different diameter etc. They're interior ballistic twins. But the .348 can run a Woodleigh flatnose weldcore, whereas the hardest hitting you can do in the Whelen (assuming typical feed geometry) is a bonded spire point or maybe roundnose. Now, anyone who has any knowledge of those respective bullet options will tell you the same thing: the spire point will retain energy further, but the flat nose will give a bigger, straighter wound channel and handle an initial bone hit (eg. shoulder shot) better.

The .348 Winchester will also give you about twice as fast a follow-up shot.

The above is all science. Now, it's purely opinion if I say you should carry a lever gun because of that. You may not care. You may want to carry a bolt because it was your Granddad's gun or because it's Tuesday or you want the extra range or that's what the cool kids are shooting. Great. All perfectly valid reasons.

[The Big D]

Incidentally, for those getting excited about the .30-30, there really is no bolt gun caliber to compare it to. Which is remarkable, if you think about it, since the .30-30 is perfectly tuned to one of the quintessential applications in American hunting - deer at reasonable range. About the closest the bolt guys can offer up is .243 Winchester or .260 Remington or 6.5x55 Swede, which have the same short vs. long range comparison to .30-30 that I've described previously.

7.62x39R is a pretty big step down ballistics-wise, but I guess that's in the running too although there aren't many guns and the feed situation is sketchy.

It's really remarkable that after all these years there is no short action .30 cal bolt offering tuned to deer. I guess they don't hunt deer in bolt land

[44 AMP]

But the .348 can run a Woodleigh flatnose weldcore,...

And the Whelen can run the 250gr Woodleigh weldcore RN. And looking at the two side by side there isn't much difference other than a SMALL flat spot on the .348 bullet where the .35 bullet is curved. The Woodleigh weldcore .348 is NOT a large flatpoint bullet. While there is a slight noticeable edge to the impact performance of the large bore flat points, the ones that are essentially clyinders with a rounded edge, the difference between small flat point and a round nose of approximately the same size is inconsequential.

If you have science demonstrating otherwise, I'll happily look at it.

Incidentally, for those getting excited about the .30-30, there really is no bolt gun caliber to compare it to.

There was. It was the .30 Remington. IDENTICAL to the .30-30 in performance, it used the same load data. Rimless case, used in Remington bolt, pump, and semi auto rifles before WWII. And it used a pointed bullet in the Remington tube magazine fed pump (model 14 /141) and in the model 8 /81 autoloaders.

Remington had a line of cartridges that duplicated the Winchester line in .25, 30, & .32 caliber. Also the .35 Remington, something Winchester did not have.

And while we're talking about "lever" cartridges, what about lever guns that shoot "bolt" gun cartridges? Frankly I don't see how one can claim one being better over 200yds and one better under when you are shooting the exact same round!! Explain to me how a BLR in .308 Win fits in there. Or a .30-06?

[Husqvarna]

How Can you compare 3030 to 6,5x55?

[Gunplummer]

My hunting Buddy I grew up with used a Savage 340 in 30-30. He only stopped using it because his area is shotgun only now. I have a 99 Savage in .243, .260. and .358. Now that I am thinking about it, The area where I grew up was mostly pump and lever for deer. Bolt actions took a while to move out of the varmit gun stage. I think all the cheap surplus guns helped that.

[The Big D]

And the Whelen can run the 250gr Woodleigh weldcore RN. And looking at the two side by side there isn't much difference other than a SMALL flat spot on the .348 bullet where the .35 bullet is curved. The Woodleigh weldcore .348 is NOT a large flatpoint bullet. While there is a slight noticeable edge to the impact performance of the large bore flat points, the ones that are essentially clyinders with a rounded edge, the difference between small flat point and a round nose of approximately the same size is inconsequential.

If you have science demonstrating otherwise, I'll happily look at it.

There's a BIG difference between those two bullets. The first is entrance wound closure. A flat point bullet "punches" the hide like a paper punch - it leaves a hole that can't close up because chunk of hide is driven down the wound channel. Round nose bullets stretch and "pop" the hide, and the resulting wound often closes without much blood. For bullets like those that may not make an exit wound, having at least some blood to follow if things go bad is a nice thing.

The second and more important issue is bone impact. Round nose bullets are deflected by bone. Flat nose bullets retain their trajectory much better because the sharp corner starts a fracture in the bone and lets the bullet keep going. This is why the trend in newer design dangerous game solids and dangerous game expanders have at least a small flat point and often more than that. Look at the hornady DGS and DGX profiles for an example ofthe small flat. The woodleigh hydrostatic solids, Northfork, and Barnes bullets are examples of big flats.

This has been tested a nauseum on game animals with repeatable results and basically all the ammo makers are in agreement, although there are still plenty of older round designs out there. As far as I'm concerned, that's plenty of scientific evidence for me.

And while we're talking about "lever" cartridges, what about lever guns that shoot "bolt" gun cartridges?

They behave like inaccurate, fast bolt guns. But they still retain the basic bolt vs. lever relationship - inaccuracy only matters at long range, and speed only matters at short range since at long range lining up the shot takes much longer than cycling the action.

[The Big D]

How Can you compare 3030 to 6,5x55?

By looking at their capabilities. Is this supposed to be some sort of trick question?

[Husqvarna]

150 30-30
2,390 ft/s (730 m/s (2,580 J)
160 6,5x55
2,559 ft/s (780 m/s) (3,072 J

and a laserlike trajectory with way better bullets

one of the most inherently accurate calibres

[44 AMP]

There's a BIG difference between those two bullets.

Not that I can see in the pictures of the bullets. Woodleigh Weldcore .348 & .35 cal bullets are shown on Midway. They are essentially identical in shape, other than the small flat tip.

This is not the same as the large difference in area such as found in a 158gr RN vs SWC pistol bullet. Not even close.

And while I won't dispute the way a large flat point behaves in tissue and bone, the bullet you specified as your example isn't one of them.
(unless Midway is showing the wrong pic of the bullet, what you named, and what you are describing are not the same thing.)

[Pathfinder45]

Actually, the original 7x57mm Mauser cartridge was similar in performance to a modern 30-30 Winchester with 170 grain bullets Probably, in Pancho Villa's day, both were on the same battlefield. I wonder which was the better weapon? Maybe having a bayonnette made the Mauser the better of the two?

Lever or Bolt, both have their merits; the correct choice is: Both, of course!

[The Big D]

Not that I can see in the pictures of the bullets. Woodleigh Weldcore .348 & .35 cal bullets are shown on Midway. They are essentially identical in shape, other than the small flat tip.

It's the flat tip that makes the difference vs. round nose.

The weldcore round nose is the best .35 Whelen bullet I'm aware of for heavy/dangerous game, but it's still a notch behind the .348 flatpoint.

[natman]

give me a remington pump, fast, removable magizine(pointed bullets), low scope mount, no shoulder dismount to shoot and in calibers that will take any animal on earth. eastbank.

Neither a lever nor a bolt action require a shoulder dismount to shoot or to chamber a fresh cartridge.