Ballpark value of Colt 1911 circa-1914?

[MSB21]

Hello! First post from a longtime lurker, so if it's in the wrong place or it's formatted wrong, I apologize.

I wanted to maybe get some thoughts on the value of this piece. My late grandfather was in the National Guard in Georgia in the early 1930s (I think he was mustered out in 1933). When he left, he 'took' it with him and basically just kept it in a case for the next 70+ years. He passed away several years ago and I claimed it when we were sorting out his estate.

I gave the serial #(98387) to a Colt collector several years ago, and he said that it was "...one of 750 shipped October 6, 1914 to the Ordnance Officer, Jefferson barracks, St. Louis, MO." I think he told me that it was probably parkerized/blued later on by the Guard, as they didn't blue them out of factory that early, but I could well be wrong.

Anyhow, I'm just curious to know what something like this worth. It's a great story and a family piece and I have no intention of parting with it, but I figured I'd share it here to see what y'all thought. I can post more photos if I need to.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you have!

[lamarw]

I am far from an expert on these things, but I know enough to be dangerous in my opinions.

I agree with you the pistol does appear to of been refinished. The original finish would of been blued on the early production units. Later finish appeared more of a black vs. blued since there were some shortcuts taken in the finishing process to increase production.

I do not believe the slide to be original to the frame of your pistol since the Colt Rampant (pony) was not placed on the center of the slide between the patent dates until after serial number 285,000. The original slide to your pistol would of had the pony stamped toward the rear of the slide on the left side near the hammer (serial number 20000 thru 285000). Before then the pony would also of been on the rear of the slide but with a circle around it.

You may want to go to this site for further research and to verify my above comments: http://coolgunsite.com/

I took a look at Mr. Clawson's publication "Collector's Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of 1911 and 1911A1" (3rd Edition) and found the following information. Serial numbers 97538 thru 102596 (5,059 units) were shipped by Colt in 1914, and was only one of numerous shipments under contract that year. It does not mention where they were shipped. You can obtain a nice certificate from Colt which will give you more information for a fee.

If my above assessment is correct, then your Grand Dad's pistol is most likely not desirable by collectors. As you stated it is more of sentimental value to your family. Although it might not be a truly collectible pistol, they are of interest to a lot of us gun folks and is of some value but way below one with all original parts and finish.

[Skans]

It's been refinished, and the refinish doesn't look right. In other words, it looks like the gun was pitted and someone refinished over that. If its a good shooter and the barrel isn't too bad, my guess is that it might be worth about $800 - $1,000.

Regarding the slide; I thought that it was only 1912 and 1913 guns that had the pony at the rear (real early ones having a pony inside of a circle). The sights look right for a 1914, but I'm not sure exactly when they changed the location of the pony.

[RickB]

1918 to 1920s slide. The pony was moved to the middle during 1918.
Brightly polished (by today's standards) blue would have been the original finish.
Better photos could reveal more interesting info about it.

Edit: Do I see "A A" stamped on the left side of the frame? That should indicate rebuild at Augusta Arsenal, which could account for the refinish, plastic stocks, etc.

[Lurch37]

As others have stated the slide doesn't match up with the frame serial number as the pony was stamped on the rear of the slide up until serial number 290,000 in 1918. I don't see any inspectors initials stamps either, which should be WGP in a circle above the magazine release.

As for the finish, according to the frame serial number it should have Colt's furnace blued Fine Finish. Of note though is that at the time the stamped pony came to be at the middle of the slide such as yours, Colt began using their Rough Finish. This finish appears very dark when compared to other models and are known as Colt's Black Models.

Putting a value on your Colt would take some more investigating to figure out exactly what you have but for say, insurance purposes, I'd say $1500 to $2000. Sentimental value would be priceless in my opinion.

[James K]

The grips are WWII vintage plastic grips, so the pistol was not kept untouched for 70+ years. The gun appears to have been Parkerized. Both are consistent with a WWII era rebuild at Augusta Arsenal (A A). Like the guns in so many family tales, the pistol does not seem to bear out its purported history. That does not mean anyone was lying; there might have been another gun and someone became confused.

Unfortunately, collectors must take the position of believing the gun, not the story. In this case gun and story contradict each other, and the gun's own story is what must be accepted.

Jim

[MSB21]

Very interesting responses... informative. Thank you all!

So I learned about difference in the slides, and I learned that the gun was modified many years after Pop left the service.

He owned a number of pawn shops in the 1970s, so my best guess is that he must have had one of his gun guys refurbish the gun during that time. I have several other interesting guns that he collected from his days with the pawn shops, so I know he was active in his store's gun collections; thus, this is the most likely scenario.

Anyhow, thanks again all for your time and your input. I've wanted to learn more about this piece for years, and I did.

[9x19]

The scallop cuts at the front of the slide are also incorrect for an early gun. This one is #948xx... notice the finish is blued and the pony is at the rear of the slide, above the thumb safety.

The grips on mine are not original and it wears an A1 grip safety (I do have the original) to avoid hammer bite.

[James K]

A gun shop rehab would not have resulted in the "A A" marking; that could have been put on only by Augusta Arsenal during or immediately after WWII. It is more likely that the original 1914 gun was exchanged with a gun from one of the shops.

Jim

[RickB]

Rebuilds are starting gain their own collector status, the stamp is easily faked, so I would not consider the AA stamp to be proof that the gun was actually rebuilt at Augusta.
Not saying the OP's gun is a fake, just that the stamp, alone, is no guarantee that a gun is an authentic arsenal rebuild.
A gun that could be dismissed as a "mixmaster" due to random origin of parts, suddenly attains collector status if it can be sold as an arsenal rebuild.

[James K]

Going by that, how do we know that any gun is not a fake? I have seen no indication that arsenal rebuilds are so desirable as collectibles that they are being faked. The collectors I know want original guns, not rebuilt mixmasters, and all rebuilds are mixmasters; they disassembled the guns and threw the parts in piles for inspection. The parts that were serviceable went into building up guns for issue. And no one gave a hoot about matching parts or future collectors.

Jim

[RickB]

Exactly.
Anything that becomes valuable, will be faked.
My favorite comment on the subject is, "Of the 1000 Shelby Cobras originally made, only 1200 are thought to still be on the road today."
On the 1911 forum, there was a debate about the markings on a MAGAZINE. They looked pantographed, said some, too rough, too this, too that.
When you could buy a box full of G.I. mags for $20, who cared, but when they're $50-$100 each?
A "shooter" M1911 or M1911A1 was, for years, a $400-$500 gun, but now the shooters are over $1000, and nice ones are two or three times that, so why not stamp an AA on the gun you assembled from gunshow parts, pass it off as a rebuild, and make a couple of hundred bucks in the process?
People are willing to pay for authentic arsenal rebuilds, since authentic original guns are priced out of their range.

[MSB21]

Well, after reading some more of these comments, and based on what you guys told me about the A A stamp, the only theory that makes any sense to me is that the gun came from one of his pawn shops. That's a more reasonable assumption than that someone took his original gun, put a different slide and grips on it, and forged the stamp.

Now, my grandfather was a straight shooter, and not one for storytelling, and he always told the story about keeping the gun when he was discharged from the service the same way… so my theory is that one of his employees who handled the guns in his shop must have swapped his original out for the one I have now. If my grandfather kept the original clean and cased, his employee would have recognized that it was a fairly valuable gun in good shape, and swapped it for a less valuable one with similar appearance and condition. My grandfather wasn't a major gun enthusiast, so he wouldn't have noticed the minor differences like the location of the pony and the A A stamp.

Anyway, it's all speculation, but that's the story that makes the most sense to me, based on what you guys have told me. Kind of disappointing to know that this isn't the piece he was issued in the Guard, but it's still a piece I inherited from him, so I still treasure it all the same.

Thanks again to everyone for your input!

[Jim Watson]

Agree with Rick. As the pristine originals hit the stratosphere in price, the legitimate arsenal reworks are getting noticed. Probably a $1200 gun.