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Old December 16, 2000, 12:31 PM   #1
sks
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Am curious as to what most of you consider acceptable accuracy for your semiauto. I realize that there are different uses for handguns but what is your general overall acceptable standard?

My personal standard is to be able to place all shots within a 3x5 index card at 25 yards. While not tack driving it is acceptable for me.

Also, what firearm have you gotten rid of due to it's lack of accuracy?

Had to get rid of a Taurus 92C. Loved it's feel, weight and overall appearance but couldn't get it to shoot well.
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Old December 16, 2000, 01:23 PM   #2
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Quote:
Am curious as to what most of you consider acceptable accuracy for your semiauto. I realize that there are different uses for handguns but what is your general overall acceptable standard?
My standard: must average under 3" groups at 25 yards to pass. I prefer better though: groups under 2.5" @ 25 yards.


Quote:
Also, what firearm have you gotten rid of due to it's lack of accuracy?
Glock 17: couldn't group better than 3" @ 25 yards. Average groups were between 4 to 4.5 " @ 25 yards

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Old December 16, 2000, 01:34 PM   #3
Stephen A. Camp
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Hello SKS! For an out-of-the-box service automatic, I can be happy with 3" or less at 25 yards. If I get 2 1/2" or better, I'm happier! Target guns in .45ACP on the 1911 frame should get no more than 1.5" at 25 yards. For revolvers with 4" bbls or better, I like no more than 3" at 25 yards with full-power ammunition as I take small game with a revolver on occassion, but don't do bullseye matches with them anymore. For the little guns like my S&W J-frames, I like about 2" at 15 yards, but can live with 3" as they're intended for use at much closer range and even with 3", no shot would be more than 1.5" from POA. With the smaller autos like the Glock 26 or Kahr K9, about the same.
Best.
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Old December 16, 2000, 03:57 PM   #4
Dr45ACP
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when you guys talk about 2.5" or 3" groups at 25 yards, do you mean from a rested position on a sandbag or offhand?
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Old December 16, 2000, 04:04 PM   #5
Quantum Singularity
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Quote:
when you guys talk about 2.5" or 3" groups at 25 yards, do you mean from a rested position on a sandbag or offhand?
Rested on a sandbag (that is the only way to tell a guns true accuracy potential IMO).
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Old December 16, 2000, 05:32 PM   #6
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I consider between 10 rounds in 4 to 8 inches offhand at 25 yds to be satisfactory. Then again my primary weapon is a rifle and a sidearm is secondary.
I don't look at how accurate the gun is when it's fired from a sandbag because if I'm using a pistol it will not be from a sandbad. But that's just me and I consider myself to be a novice to pistol shooting.
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Old December 16, 2000, 06:09 PM   #7
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Personally I don't use sandbags or rests to shoot from. While I understand that this is the only way to know it's true accuracy my shots are all freehanded. FWIW the handgun that I can "point shoot" with the best is the BHP.
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Old December 16, 2000, 06:25 PM   #8
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IPSC "upper panel" A-zone hits at 15 yds.

For groups (two-handed standing) 2" at 25 yds.
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Old December 16, 2000, 06:38 PM   #9
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I use the NRA standard 25 yard target. I figure that a 3 inch group or less is good.

It also depends on the person and the level of skill you are aiming for. In my self-defense, home/family defense, I figure if I can keep all the shots fired in the black at 25 - 30 feet, that is a good center mass grouping. I would test the gun for accuracy from a rest and then see how you much variance there is offhand. It is very unlikely that you will have any support/rest when needing to fire in a home invasion situation.

Know your needs and train yourself accordingly.
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Old December 16, 2000, 06:40 PM   #10
Doug 29
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Handgun Accuracy

I believe that acceptable accuracy is a meaningless term. I require 1 1/2 inches, or less, at 25 yards from the gun/ammo combination that I will use. Which rules out most semi-auto pistols. This being from a ransom rest, of course. Why pay big bucks for a gun that will only group in 3 inches at 25 yards? 1911 .45's, assembled from spare parts, will do that well. And be completely reliable. Some people seem to have forgotten that we are dealing with two separate quantities. How accurate is the ammo? How accurate is the gun? Remington has published accuracy requirements for their Golden Sabre ammo, which is a big step in the right direction! And Springfield's guns, as supplied to the FBI, met those accuracy requirements. If you think that defensive accuracy is less demanding, spend your money on lots of ammo and practice hip shooting at 7 yards. That used to be a requirement for the military and most people passed.
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Old December 16, 2000, 07:26 PM   #11
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I have found that all my guns are more accurate than I am-

That being said, the palm of my hand is 4.5" wide and 4.75" long, and if I can consistently put a 5 shot group in that box at 10 m off-hand, I'm happy (and I'm a happy guy). From a supported rest, I expect 2-3 inches or less, and again, all my guns are more acurate than I am. Some days I truly amaze myself, but mostly I just figure I'll survive just fine.
M2
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Old December 16, 2000, 08:10 PM   #12
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Off-Hand, double taps, center of mass at seven yards...
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Old December 16, 2000, 08:40 PM   #13
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All shots in the 9 and 10 ring of a 5.5" Shoot-N-C target.This is @ a 7 yard distance.
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Old December 16, 2000, 09:10 PM   #14
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When I was much younger, and interested in shooting whitetail deer with a handgun, accuracy was paramount. I took deer with S&W Model 19, Colt Python and S&W Model 29.

But that was some time ago, before the need for glasses and my decision to pursue no-kill sports such as fly-fishing and skeet.

I'm a one-gun guy now, with a Para P12 that shoots more accurately than I can aim. I can shoot all day at 7 yards and never stray outside a 4" bull - and that's good enough for personal protection and concealed carry use as a purely defensive weapon.
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Old December 16, 2000, 09:44 PM   #15
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For defensive purposes I like to see 10 shots into 2" or less at 25-30 feet off-hand. A gun and load combination that allows 5 shots into one ragged hole to be produced at 25-30 feet off-hand is the grail.

A couple of combinations that have worked for me have been:

Glock M21 - Winchester Black Talon 230grn JHP
Sig P220 - Federal Hydra Shock 230grn JHP
H&K USP Tactical - Gold Dots +P 230grn JHP
CZ-75 - Corbon/Remington +P 115grn JHP

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Old December 16, 2000, 09:51 PM   #16
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I try to put a couple of clips as fast as I can fire them into a 4" bullseye target at 50'. This is what I practise for, and when I go to the range I usually shoot 80% of my practise ammo at this range. I don't honestly think that I will ever need to shoot anyone/thing at 50'. The other 20% I shoot at 21', and after shooting at 50' it is amazing how easy it is to quickly put a couple of clips into a single hole at 21'.

If I am able to easily put all of the rounds in the black, I try to concentrate on speeding up and doing it faster. No one would confuse what I do as double-tapping, but I can consistantly put several 10 round clips in the black in about 20 seconds, including mag change.

I owned and shot a Beretta 92FS for years, and was unable to make any progress with it. On the other hand, I owned a Beretta 96 Brigadear Elite and was able to do quite well with it.

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Old December 16, 2000, 10:35 PM   #17
Stephen A. Camp
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Hello, Dr. 45ACP! I meant rested from bags. Believe it or not, 20 years ago when competing quite a bit, I could have done that with two hands unsupported and not too much worse with one hand..........but not anymore. Best.
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Old December 16, 2000, 11:12 PM   #18
Mike Irwin
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For my Springfield MilSpec, acceptable accuracy is hitting bowling pins at 10 meters.

For my defensive semi-autos, acceptable accuracy is all shots in the 10 ring on a man-sized target at 10 yards.

I don't worry about group size in inches. I do it in terms that are practical to me.
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Old December 18, 2000, 02:54 AM   #19
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Acceptable accuracy

3" groups offhand at 35 feet. If a pistol won't do this, I 'disown' it. I will qualify this by saying these are full-sized pistols with 4" or greater barrels.

I use my 'redneck' offhand method by taking twelve full steps out from the firing line and placing targets (as measured, this equals about 35'). I prefer a minimum of two, and sometimes use three at staggered ranges and angles to offer multiple target engagements.

Shooting from the bench is the only true method to gauge a pistols accuracy with a specific brand of ammunition. I always do this first, and have tried up to two dozen types/weights/charges to find ammunition that will work well in the chosen machinery. If it won't group 3" at 25 yards, it goes up for sale or trade. However, this is the first test.

If it passes the bench test, then it's off to the 'redneck' test. I have owned firearms that would pattern impressively off the bench, but poorly offhand. Not much good doing bench tests when the handling of the piece turns out to be poor. Most bad guys will not allow you to set up your fold-away bench.

I sense it would be difficult to convince a grand jury of the life threat you sensed with the attacker beyond 35'. Even if the BG was armed, a 3" group will still pattern effectively enough at 50'.

Beyond these ranges, you had better be moving to a long gun.

Still, I regularly place 2 liter water filled bottles at 50 yards and hit them (about 75%). For REAL fun, I place them at 100 yards (about 25%). Hope I never have to do this in a crisis, though!

Pistols that didn't make the grade? A Smith and Wesson 5906 that could not produce better than 10" groups from the bench and about 4-6" groups during the 'redneck' test. I must have tried 30 different kinds of ammunition in that piece of junk (I wanted it to work for me SO bad) before I just gave up. Unacceptable for a new firearm in my opinion.



[Edited by Jager1 on 12-19-2000 at 05:12 AM]
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Old December 18, 2000, 11:53 AM   #20
David Scott
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IMHO the accuracy you get from slow aimed fire isn't as relevant as what you can do rapid fire. My P95 will shoot three inch groups from a rest at 21 feet, but so what? When I practice for defensive purposes I go by what it can do firing controlled pairs and such. I use 8 inch Birchwood Casey Shoot-N-See targets because they are about the size of a thoracic cavity. I can usually get a controlled pair into a 4 inch circle.

The target below was shot while testing the new fiber optic sights on the P95. It's a full 15 round mag, dumped into the 8" target as fast as I could get the front sight re-acquired. Came out to about 1 second per shot.



I consider this acceptable.
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Old December 18, 2000, 08:10 PM   #21
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The other guy is dead, and I am not.
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Old December 18, 2000, 09:09 PM   #22
Eric of IN
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My definition of acceptable accuracy is 15 rounds into the 9 and 10 rings on a silhouette target at 10 yards in 30 seconds or less. Since I use 7 round mags in my K9 and 1911, this includes one reload. I could care less what size groups the gun shoots off a sandbag rest, because I doubt I'll have a sandbag handy if I ever have to defend myself with a handgun.
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Old December 19, 2000, 09:55 AM   #23
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And now for something completely different...

All within a standard 9" paper plate at 100', off-hand. That is good enough for me.
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Old December 19, 2000, 05:06 PM   #24
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Geez, you guys are pretty demanding!

If I can hit a paper plate at 25' consistently with my pistol, I'm happy!

Granted, if I "rested" the pistol, I'd want to see the 3" accuracy you guys are looking for, but like sks said, I won't be using my pistol from a sandbag.

I am much more demanding from my rifles, FWIW.
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Old December 20, 2000, 10:11 AM   #25
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I shoot a lot of hot handloads...

And I know the Ruger will hold inside a paper plate at 100' with factory ball ammo. I figure if my stepped-up loads have the same accuracy, I must be doing something right.
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