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September 1, 2014, 08:08 AM | #26 | |
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For the last query, your tax dollars at work.
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September 1, 2014, 09:15 AM | #27 |
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All I have to say is, I don't like any check point. The check point going north by the border patrol, the age check points, none of them.
However, I hate drunks on the road more. I don't drink so nothing to worry about. When a subject pulls into one and he rolls his window down and the officer smells and observes behavior that makes the person a suspect all the officer has to do is fill in the blanks on the preformatted template and present it to the judge. The judge signs it and there you go. A legal search for a mandatory blood sample and depending on the wording a search of the car. Now I suppose it is possible for a designated driver to roll the window down and there be a smell. However a prudent officer would ask questions and probably have you pull to secondary. Once in secondary you would undoubtedly be asked to step out of the car. If not intoxicated then all would be normal, you may get to to a field sobriety test and the sent on your way. Remember the goal is to find drunk drivers. Like I said I don't like any check point as they can all be abused, but I hate drunk drivers more and as long as there is tight oversight, I say make it happen. Mel |
September 1, 2014, 11:37 AM | #28 | |
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Whether they found a loophole in the law to make it legal or not seems fishy to me as to why they would want to do one.
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September 1, 2014, 12:35 PM | #29 | ||
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If you are stopped for suspicion of DUI, you get the breathalyzer. If you are involved in an accident, you get the blood test. Quote:
The blood test results (BAC) are very difficult to argue against in court, AND there is no issue about the calibration/accuracy of the breath meter, and, the chain of custody tracking, including the time of the sample allows for a legally acceptable standard. Alcohol in the blood breaks down at a given rate, so a sample taken 1 hour (for example) after the accident can be used to give an accurate base for what was in the blood at the time of the accident. That's why they take blood samples.
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September 2, 2014, 09:05 AM | #30 | |
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September 2, 2014, 09:12 AM | #31 |
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I accept that the courts have ruled that DUI check points are reasonable. I don't like having my time wasted, however. The state does not properly balance the cost of imposing a check point with the cost of apprehending drunk drivers. The cost of wasted time is not borne by the state, it is borne by all the people waiting in line at the checkpoint.
I would be in favor of a legislative solution. The state legislature could pass a law mandating that compensation be paid to everyone who goes through the DUI checkpoint and is not charged with a crime. $15 per hour for each person inconvenienced seems reasonable, since that is about the median wage in the US. I would be in favor of carrying this further, and mandate that the state compensate people anytime they are questioned, detained, compelled to testify, compelled to jury duty, etc. Jim |
September 2, 2014, 09:29 AM | #32 | |
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JimDandy Wrote;
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You might look back at Al Norris' post, he highlights this quite well. The ability to freely travel by any means is a right. If you "sign away" your rights by entering into the contract of a "drivers license" with the DMV of your State, you agree to their curtailment of your rights. Again, the right to drive has been changed to a "privilege" by popular propaganda over the years and, the public-at-large has bought into the scheme. So, again my statement: The notion that driving is a "privilege" is not necessarily true.
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September 2, 2014, 09:33 AM | #33 | |
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btmj Wrote:
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September 2, 2014, 09:48 AM | #34 | |
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The no fly list suggests otherwise. Speed limits, no wake zones, (Fishing) lakes that prohibit motorized water craft, and on and on suggest otherwise. |
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September 3, 2014, 08:23 AM | #35 |
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Re: the driver's license Right vs. Privilege debate, AFAIK no US state requires a driver's license or vehicle registration for bicycling on public roads. IOW if you philosophically object to the idea of obtaining a gov't license or paying a tax in order to exercise a right, feel free to pedal away.
Additionally, AFAIK you cannot be charged with a DUI while riding a bicycle in most states, although you may be charged with public intoxication, reckless driving, and/or obstruction of traffic. I suppose bicycles are the vehicular equivalent of black powder muzzleloaders.
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September 3, 2014, 09:34 AM | #36 | |||
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I'm not trying to be combative, I'm honestly asking. For it to be fundamental right, (most) everyone has to have it correct? That means if John Q Public sues for it it State Court in California and wins, everyone in California wins while they're in California. This would make it a fundamental right in California, correct? Maybe I should start with- is a "Right of Liberty" the same as a "Fundamental Right"? I'm not following how there can be hundreds of case law cases and yet I'd be required to reinvent the wheel in all these jurisdictions? |
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September 4, 2014, 10:16 AM | #37 | ||||
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Which answers your next question, by the way. Without a challenge in a higher court, any such decision pertains only to that particular judicial jurisdiction. If you have won a decision in your district, you cannot challenge to a higher court. Such a challenge must come in the form of an appeal by the loser. Lower court decisions are not precedent. Heck, even in the same district, another Judge is not bound by what the deciding Judge has ruled. So you may, in fact, be faced with the same challenge in the same district, by a different district Judge. To my knowledge, there are no State Courts of Appeal, let alone a State Supreme Court decisions, that have been successfully decided in the favor of the individual. If there were, then such actions would be precedent, but only for that State. To my knowledge, no one has successfully litigated this idea at the Federal level and won. Even if they did, it would still not be precedent, unless it was litigated to at least the Federal Appellate level. It would then be a valid application of law, but only in that Federal Appeals Circuit. So while I firmly believe that we have seen a right be relegated to a privilege, I have neither the time, and certainly not the money it would require, to take it to (federal) court and challenge the licensing laws. |
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September 4, 2014, 10:27 AM | #38 |
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And with that, it brings us around to the question of these roadblocks (Call them DUI checkpoints or whatever you will).
It is my belief that they will (almost) always be held as constitutional, not because they interfere with your liberty to travel, but because they are part and parcel of the States ability to license a specific mode of travel, which license you have voluntarily agreed to abide by. Try to remember, that the State has a compelling interest to maintain the Public Safety. These "checkpoints" are a method to ensure that safety. |
September 4, 2014, 11:28 AM | #39 |
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I did some quick googling, and I'm a bit confused.
How do CITY OF INDIANAPOLIS v. EDMOND and Michigan Dep't of State Police v. Sitz not contradict themselves? I somewhat understand the distinction between Brown v Texas and these random checkpoints. From my reading there's often less of a 4A protection to vehicles than persons or fixed places because vehicles can move and move quickly. I remember that in some case about searching a motor home and whether it was a home or a vehicle and which level of protection it gets. Anyway.... What I don't get is both of the first two cases involved a checkpoint on a vehicle. It was legal to pull over everyone because they may be driving drunk even though the officer has no reason to suspect they are as it's somehow a special government interest as referenced in Nat'l Treas. Emp. Union v. Von Raab while detecting illicit drugs is " indistinguishable from the general interest in crime control" Von Raab made it special government interest "beyond the normal need for law enforcement" apparently because the urine test results weren't usable in court without the permission of the tested person. I'm pretty sure everyone who gets stopped at a checkpoint can get arrested without their permission. Is there something I'm missing, or is this just a matter of we decided this during that year, and that during this year, and we're all ignoring the conflict hoping nobody notices? |
September 4, 2014, 12:35 PM | #40 | ||||
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And in Edmond, the Court noted with specific reference to Sitz (Edmond, at 39, emphasis added): Not every checkpoint for every purpose is the same. Not every search and seizure without a warrant is the same. For Fourth Amendment purposes it's always a question of reasonableness. And in considering the question of reasonableness in any particular case, a court will consider a variety of factors including the nature of the interest served and the imposition on the citizen.
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September 4, 2014, 12:48 PM | #41 |
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No Frank, I got that they're giving a special status to the DUI checkpoints. What I don't get is how they're justifying it. Von Raab was justified apparently because the results weren't usable without permission. But the drivers are more than being removed from the road. They're also being prosecuted.
I can see the special interest being getting them off the road. But isn't the subsequent arrest and prosecution the general interest in crime control? |
September 4, 2014, 01:58 PM | #42 | |||
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Remember also that every case is, at its core, a matter of deciding a particular dispute -- was the search reasonable; was this checkpoint a Fourth Amendment violation; etc. A court in deciding a case needs to reach a result in that particular case. The opinion explains how a court reached that result. As the Court explained in Edmond a DUI checkpoint has a special status relating to its utility for immediately removing an impaired driver (a hazard) from the road. That is at the heart of why the search and seizure is reasonable for Fourth Amendment purposes. Once it passes Fourth Amendment muster, the fruits of the search and seizure may be used to prosecute any criminal acts identified. In National Treasury Employees Union v. Von Raab, 489 U.S. 656 (1989), the Court was looking at a particular, challenged drug testing program implemented by the United States Customs Service. As that particular program under scrutiny was designed and operated as described in the opinion (at 661 - 663, footnotes omitted): So in Von Raab it was merely by reason of a prior design of the program being scrutinized that the information obtained as a result of the search and seizure would not be routinely used for criminal prosecution. The Court therefore had no reason to consider whether the result would be different if that information could be thus used. However, as the Court noted, at 670 - 671: Therefore, given the strong governmental interest in drug-free Customs Agents, it's conceivable that the Court would have blessed a drug testing program even without a "no prosecution" component.
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September 4, 2014, 02:51 PM | #43 |
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OK that's it. They may have mentioned the prosecution thing, but it wasn't part of the question asked and answered...
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