Too old maybe? - Page 3

**Mike Irwin** · January 22, 2014, 11:31 AM

Yeah, I'm more than familiar with the state of education as it pertains to the teaching of history, both in the United States and in Japan.

coldbeer · January 22, 2014, 12:32 PM

It doesn't bother me whatsoever, but if it bothers you that much just buy a Ruger American rifle instead. You'll end up paying more for a less accurate rifle, but you won't have to use a word that gives you nightmares as much.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 22, 2014, 12:44 PM

I have Krupp toaster and we did have VW or two in our car histories.

If the modern company has moved on, then so have I. Ford has a less than noble history.

I do understand the Axis connotations. I would be hesitant to use some firm that called itself the Axis group. Just an emotional shudder.

Gunplummer · January 22, 2014, 12:52 PM

I strongly suspect that if this Axis rifle was as cheap as the Commi rifles you all bought there would be no problem.

Tom Matiska · January 22, 2014, 01:00 PM

It is more remarkable that the name "Savage" gets a pass in this day and age. If Arthur Savage were alive today, he couldn't put his name on an NFL team.

Brian Pfleuger · January 22, 2014, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Matiska

It is more remarkable that the name "Savage" gets a pass in this day and age. If Arthur Savage were alive today, he couldn't put his name on an NFL team.

They don't exactly get a pass, someone is always offended by everything.

Art Eatman · January 22, 2014, 02:13 PM

I keep looking for that Constitutional Right to never be offended by anything.

Ain't found it, yet.

I just send folks off to the Chaplain so he can punch their TS Card.

James K · January 22, 2014, 02:44 PM

I am not sure I am "offended", more like a little put off. But to argue that one should not be bothered by the use of words is not logical. Words do have meanings and words do have power. As to common words deliberately being given new meanings, I cite the word "gay" which once meant "happy" or "cheerful". When the word is used today, does anyone think of those meanings?

Those who name organizations and legislation often concoct names whose abbreviation (or acronym) can serve to state the purpose of the group or the bill, and be its own advocate, Gov. Cuomo's SAFE law being a case in point. And corporations spend millions of dollars in making sure a new trade name has positive connotations; GM famously goofed with its Chevy Nova - "no va" means "it doesn't go" in Spanish.

But I can see the point of not being "put off" by the association of a trade name with an evil alliance of almost 80 years ago. But I can still wish Savage had chosen some other name.

Jim

BerdanSS · January 22, 2014, 06:26 PM

We just live in a very sensitive world these days. I have personally been accosted at the range SEVERAL times, when shooting a certain piece of History I own. It has several VERY well intact markings of an eagle perched atop numbers......the Eagle just happens to be, and has been since LONG before the psychotic rantings of a short, swarthy madman...One of my nations great symbol.

For possessing it, I have been given rotten looks, rude verbal interaction, and one individual 10 years my junior so bold as to say; The police should take it from me and melt it down, and afterwords I should be jailed.

In my experience, most manufactured items are named entirely on the whim of people in glass walled offices....that for the life of them wouldn't know their own product if they were socked upside the head with it.

Brian Pfleuger · January 22, 2014, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James K

But to argue that one should not be bothered by the use of words is not logical. Words do have meanings and words do have power. As to common words deliberately being given new meanings, I cite the word "gay" which once meant "happy" or "cheerful". When the word is used today, does anyone think of those meanings?

I don't think anyone is arguing that, though. Of course words have meanings and of course we can be bothered by their usage.

Some words have totally (or nearly) UNambiguous meanings. Al Qaeda, for instance, effectively means one and only one thing in the English world. Using it to name a product might very well be offensive.

"Axis" no more has a singular meaning than "Jim" applies to (or should remind us of) only one person. I truly believe that associating it FIRST and FOREMOST with the Axis Powers of WWII is entirely illogical. The word has nearly a dozen meanings and there is no indicator or inference from Savage or by implication that relates it to WWII.

**Mike Irwin** · January 22, 2014, 11:10 PM

"But to argue that one should not be bothered by the use of words is not logical."

Oh for...

I don't believe anyone is saying that, Jim.

What we are saying, at least what I'm saying, is that it is somewhat (if not a lot) illogical to be offended by proxy, having first to go through the process of translating the word from its original German to English in order to generate that offense.

Seems to be a rather tortured process.

Againstthewind · January 23, 2014, 12:11 AM

I didn't know about the history of the Savage name. I probably should have looked it up. That does make a big difference. I do think that it is important to do some extra research into a product name so that people aren't unintentionally offended. WWII is an important time in our history that should be remembered and the feelings about it respected. I am a little embarrassed that I never even gave the names a second thought. I might be too young, but Japanese and German companies don't bother me. The US spend a lot on rebuilding both nations. I almost said reconstruction, but that is a naughty word still in some parts from what I hear. Was that offensive? It can also be hard not to be offensive, and it makes a big difference to me if it is unintentional. In person it seems best just not to say anything if in doubt, but here its no holds barred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Be..._product_names. Most are not along the same lines, but some are interesting.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/21622...-product-names
some of these are kindof funny.

This is totally off topic, but how did the rebuilding in Germany and Japan differ from what is going on in Iraq and Afganistan?

Art Eatman · January 23, 2014, 01:27 PM

Let's assume math or Axis deer or some such and quit worrying about what we don't know.

January 22, 2014, 11:31 AM	#51
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Yeah, I'm more than familiar with the state of education as it pertains to the teaching of history, both in the United States and in Japan. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 22, 2014, 12:44 PM	#53
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I have Krupp toaster and we did have VW or two in our car histories. If the modern company has moved on, then so have I. Ford has a less than noble history. I do understand the Axis connotations. I would be hesitant to use some firm that called itself the Axis group. Just an emotional shudder. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 22, 2014, 01:00 PM	#55
Tom Matiska Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: Wilkes-Barre, Pa Posts: 1,029	It is more remarkable that the name "Savage" gets a pass in this day and age. If Arthur Savage were alive today, he couldn't put his name on an NFL team. __________________ A gun is like a parachute... when you need one you usually need it pretty bad...

January 22, 2014, 06:26 PM	#59
BerdanSS Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Location: to close to other houses Posts: 1,176	We just live in a very sensitive world these days. I have personally been accosted at the range SEVERAL times, when shooting a certain piece of History I own. It has several VERY well intact markings of an eagle perched atop numbers......the Eagle just happens to be, and has been since LONG before the psychotic rantings of a short, swarthy madman...One of my nations great symbol. For possessing it, I have been given rotten looks, rude verbal interaction, and one individual 10 years my junior so bold as to say; The police should take it from me and melt it down, and afterwords I should be jailed. In my experience, most manufactured items are named entirely on the whim of people in glass walled offices....that for the life of them wouldn't know their own product if they were socked upside the head with it. __________________ One day, Men in tall hats will thump their chests and proclaim..."oh, what a great sea of mud we lived in"--The unalterable fate of billy creek .... "Smoke.....it's what's for dinner" Last edited by BerdanSS; January 22, 2014 at 06:32 PM.

January 22, 2014, 11:10 PM	#61
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"But to argue that one should not be bothered by the use of words is not logical." Oh for... I don't believe anyone is saying that, Jim. What we are saying, at least what I'm saying, is that it is somewhat (if not a lot) illogical to be offended by proxy, having first to go through the process of translating the word from its original German to English in order to generate that offense. Seems to be a rather tortured process. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 22, 2014, 12:32 PM	#52
coldbeer Junior member Join Date: February 21, 2012 Location: Woodhaven MI Posts: 477	It doesn't bother me whatsoever, but if it bothers you that much just buy a Ruger American rifle instead. You'll end up paying more for a less accurate rifle, but you won't have to use a word that gives you nightmares as much.

January 22, 2014, 12:52 PM	#54
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I strongly suspect that if this Axis rifle was as cheap as the Commi rifles you all bought there would be no problem.

January 22, 2014, 02:13 PM	#57
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I keep looking for that Constitutional Right to never be offended by anything. Ain't found it, yet. I just send folks off to the Chaplain so he can punch their TS Card.

January 22, 2014, 02:44 PM	#58
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I am not sure I am "offended", more like a little put off. But to argue that one should not be bothered by the use of words is not logical. Words do have meanings and words do have power. As to common words deliberately being given new meanings, I cite the word "gay" which once meant "happy" or "cheerful". When the word is used today, does anyone think of those meanings? Those who name organizations and legislation often concoct names whose abbreviation (or acronym) can serve to state the purpose of the group or the bill, and be its own advocate, Gov. Cuomo's SAFE law being a case in point. And corporations spend millions of dollars in making sure a new trade name has positive connotations; GM famously goofed with its Chevy Nova - "no va" means "it doesn't go" in Spanish. But I can see the point of not being "put off" by the association of a trade name with an evil alliance of almost 80 years ago. But I can still wish Savage had chosen some other name. Jim

January 23, 2014, 12:11 AM	#62
Againstthewind Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Posts: 60	Savage history I didn't know about the history of the Savage name. I probably should have looked it up. That does make a big difference. I do think that it is important to do some extra research into a product name so that people aren't unintentionally offended. WWII is an important time in our history that should be remembered and the feelings about it respected. I am a little embarrassed that I never even gave the names a second thought. I might be too young, but Japanese and German companies don't bother me. The US spend a lot on rebuilding both nations. I almost said reconstruction, but that is a naughty word still in some parts from what I hear. Was that offensive? It can also be hard not to be offensive, and it makes a big difference to me if it is unintentional. In person it seems best just not to say anything if in doubt, but here its no holds barred. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Be..._product_names. Most are not along the same lines, but some are interesting. http://mentalfloss.com/article/21622...-product-names some of these are kindof funny. This is totally off topic, but how did the rebuilding in Germany and Japan differ from what is going on in Iraq and Afganistan?

January 23, 2014, 01:27 PM	#63
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Let's assume math or Axis deer or some such and quit worrying about what we don't know.