Carrying live round

[OnTheFly]

I'm very cautious about carrying a firearm concealed. I don't ever want anything bad to happen so I leave ALL my ammo at home. Chamber empty, no magazine in the gun, and no spare magazine. Better safe than sorry I always say.

Fly

Yes...I am joking. One in the chamber and my brain is my safety.

[David Armstrong]

This is a training issue, not a round in the chamber issue.

It can be both. IIRC, there are still a fair number of NDs with our troops, in spite of all the training.

I have been around NDs with an empty chamber, both handguns and shotguns - kids will be kids.

I think by definition you cannot have an ND with an empty chamber.

My point here was, if you can not effectively operate the weapons safeties, whether there is a round in the chamber or not, choose a different weapon.

And my point is "why?" If you like the weapon, if you are good with it, and if it is one of those "it just doesn't matter" issues, why change. There is no need and no gain.

One must be comfortable and confident with the weapon of choice to truly be proficient.

I'll agree with that, but that has nothing to do with carrying chamber empty or loaded. One can have the chamber loaded and not be proficient, one can have the chamber empty and be very proficient.

the problem many of us do not get adequate training practice on a regular basis.

That might be more supportive of chamber empty than chamber loaded.

When???

Perhaps you missed the earlier post:

"....guns that are not equipped with some of the more modern safety designs. Another might be if your situation requires you to load/unload a lot. Some guns the safety is hard to get too or to operate for some people. Others might find the first DA pull of a DA/SA gun to be problematic. Again, it is always situational. What is an advantage for one person in one situation might be a disadvantage for another person or in another situation."

[maxkimber]

Mr. Armstrong,

Great discussion, but I must restrain from responding as we are going in circles. So, we disagree and I do it amicability.

I solicit others to join in the fun...

Regards,
Max

P.S. A negligent discharge(ND) is an accidental discharge of a firearm involving culpable carelessness.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While I'm clearly on the chambered side, I offer from Ruger:

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/LCPRecall/index.html


Ruger has recently received a small number of reports from the field indicating that LCP pistols can discharge when dropped onto a hard surface with a round in the chamber. We are firmly committed to safety and would like to retrofit all older LCP Pistols. The retrofit involves installation of an upgraded hammer mechanism at no charge to the customer.


We want to remind gun users that, for maximum safety when carrying any pistol with a loaded magazine in place, the chamber should be empty, and the slide should be closed. Any gun may fire if dropped or struck.

See, someone thinks so.

[alloy]

i only carry a barney bullet in my shirt pocket.

[Deet]

ALways ready with one in the chamber, either a Kel Tec P11 or my Ruger P95

[David Armstrong]

While I'm clearly on the chambered side, I offer from Ruger:

I would like to point out that I too am on the chambered side. Where I tend to disagree with many is the idea that chamber empty is useless, is always wrong, will get you killed, is like carrying a club, is evidence of fear of firearms, indicates lack of training, and the assorted other wild claims that are obviously wrong.

[OldMarksman]

The OP is in Pakistan and his environment s undoubtedly different from that of most of us.

When I kept a DA/SA semi-auto for home defense I kept a round chambered.

When I took a CCW course, I learned that I could not in most cases produce the gun until a probable attacker was close to me, and that I had at most a little more than two seconds to draw and fire. To me that doesn't leave enough time to cycle the slide, and the answer is obvious--for that application.

Now, for LEO or military carry the same restrictions may not apply. I don't know.

The only semi-auto I've ever fired that I would never carry with a round cambered was a 7.62 Tokarev. It had no safety at all.

[maxkimber]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

We want to remind gun users that, for maximum safety when carrying any pistol with a loaded magazine in place, the chamber should be empty, and the slide should be closed. Any gun may fire if dropped or struck.

This is legal-ise for please do not sue us...

[maxkimber]

I never stated what I carry...

Beretta PX4 Type-C in .40S&W. There is no external safety on this weapon and there is no magazine lock (can be fired without a magazine inserted - a requirement for any gun I CCW).

[maxkimber]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

I would like to point out that I too am on the chambered side. Where I tend to disagree with many is the idea that chamber empty is useless, is always wrong, will get you killed, is like carrying a club, is evidence of fear of firearms, indicates lack of training, and the assorted other wild claims that are obviously wrong.

1. Useless - no, it is great for long-term storage
2. Is always wrong - no, see number 1 above
3. Will get you killed - it is possible
4. Is like carrying a club - clubs do not have chambers, let's not get silly
5. Is evidence of fear of firearms - no, fear of bullets
6. Indicates lack of training - Yes, OR more dangerous an overconfidence in training
7. Obviously wrong - ummmmm, no, just different from the majority.

I am with you David, just having fun... This topic is like Dem/Rep, Ford/Chevy, etc.

[OuTcAsT]

Yep, always carry one in the pipe, cocked, and thumb safety off on my Springfield Mil-Spec

"anything else is just for throwing"

[David Armstrong]

"anything else is just for throwing"

So, if you had a gun with a full mag and an empty chamber and came under attack you would throw it instead of charging the chamber and shooting??

[Deaf Smith]

Will chamber empty get you killed?

Just read alot of the American Rifleman "Armed Citizen" or even just your news papers and see how many people got into struggles with their assailant (armed or not) and then imagine if their gun was carried chamber empty.

Of course even a loaded gun can get you killed if you let someone snatch it. Plenty of evidence there.

Anyone here know of any, and I mean any, law enforcement agency in the U.S. that carries chamber empty? How about Europe? Asia? Not talking about military but LEO organizations.

[Conan1]

Always carry with chamber loaded. Use brain and finger control as needed.

[evan1293]

If you have "an educated trigger finger" then on most modern pistols, you should carry with a round in the chamber. My personal defense pistols (2 carry guns and nightstand gun) are always loaded, always chambered, all the time. If they're not on my person, they're locked in the safe but fully loaded. My other handguns are completely unloaded and locked away.

[OuTcAsT]

So, if you had a gun with a full mag and an empty chamber and came under attack you would throw it instead of charging the chamber and shooting??

O.K. David, I Digress, but my point is (IMHO) that within a great number of scenarios, you likely will not have time to rack the slide, and the gun will be useless... Except maybe as a blunt-force trauma tool.

But again, this is just my opinion, and the reason I carry the way I do. I am not an expert

[maxkimber]

The reasons advocating an unloaded chamber you provided actually 'ate me up' over night and I have to voice my opinion - sorry.

Originally Posted by maxkimber

I am curious, what are the advantages of carrying an unloaded gun?

Your answer in its entirety:

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

It is not an unloaded gun. There is a magazine full of rounds loaded in it. Advantages will differ for different people in different situations. You mentioned one already--guns that are not equipped with some of the more modern safety designs.

I agree 100%. If you carry an older gun without internal safety devices, I do not advocate carrying a round in the chamber (although I would). This is the only quasi justification (IMHO) to not carry a round in the chamber.

"Advantages will differ for different people in different situations" I would like to read some??? As I believe the other reasons you list are not valid argument for or against carrying with a round in the chamber, allow me to explain...

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Another might be if your situation requires you to load/unload a lot.

This is not a valid argument. This is neither an advantage or disadvantage, as to properly clear a weapon you have to rack lock the slide to the rear and you should never pull the trigger. So, have a round in the chamber would be about the same as not having a round in the chamber - only difference you either have to catch the round from the chamber or pick it up. This a just plan laziness IMHO. Do you think police officers who frequent prisons don't put a round in the chamber because they just have to unload again when we get to the prison?

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Some guns the safety is hard to get too or to operate for some people.

This is not a valid argument. If I chose to carry a gun with an external safety, the safety would be off anyway. What is the difference between carrying a gun with no external safety and one with an external safety off - none. For instance, I carry a Beretta PX4 type-C (no external safeties), a friend of mine carries a Beretta PX4 type-F (external safety), but he carries it with the safety off. It is very close to the same gun, but some people like an external safety, no problem, but both should be carried with a round in the chamber. More importantly, why would you carry a gun wherein "the safety is hard to get too or to operate." For your safety/security and the safety of those around you, go to an experienced gun shop and get fitted for a gun that you can effectively manipulate. If you can't manipulate a 1911, don't carry it - shoot by all means, but don't CCW.

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Others might find the first DA pull of a DA/SA gun to be problematic.

This is not a valid argument. Don't carry a gun you find problematic. For your safety/security and the safety of those around you, go to an experienced gun shop and get fitted for a gun that you can effectively shoot. Or a very viable option, instead of having to rack a round try cocking the hammer. If you carry with a round in the chamber you can still fire, albeit problematic, and if you don't like firing DA, simply cock the hammer, if you have time.

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Again, it is always situational. What is an advantage for one person in one situation might be a disadvantage for another person or in another situation. But, as mentioned, in the overall scheme of life it really doesn't matter much.

This is not a valid argument. Yes, everything is situational. The problem is you do not know the situation in advance. You can't say: ok, today I will be attacked, but I will have time to rack my slide, so I will carry without a round in the chamber today. I would like to read a situation that a chambered round was a disadvantage???

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Either method works fine for virtually all non-LE situations.

This is not an argument. Either method works fine, if, if, if, you do not have to employ your weapon.

[Ruthless4christ]

It can be both. IIRC, there are still a fair number of NDs with our troops, in spite of all the training.

i would venture to say Lack of training. our troops do not get near as much live fire training as they used to. Im no Sgt.York, but i am better witha gun than most of my friends in the service.

[maxkimber]

Originally Posted by Ruthless4christ

i would venture to say Lack of training. our troops do not get near as much live fire training as they used to. Im no Sgt.York, but i am better witha gun than most of my friends in the service.

Most NDs live up to the definition: negligence, carelessness, etc. I mean come on, don't ever pull the trigger unless you intend to shoot something/one/etc. I can give a loaded gun to a 10 year old and tell him do not pull the trigger unless you, well, you get the point. Our military and civilian ND's are caused by horseplay many of the times - "I didn't think it was loaded."

http://negligentdischarge.com/

[David Armstrong]

within a great number of scenarios, you likely will not have time to rack the slide, and the gun will be useless... Except maybe as a blunt-force trauma tool.

That is an oft-stated fear, but as I've said before in reality it seems those fears just don't actually occur.

[Creature]

That is an oft-stated fear, but as I've said before in reality it seems those fears just don't actually occur.

Youtube and Google video has some really interesting videos of actual attacks that were caught on tape...plenty of them show where the victim was caught from behind and/or unaware by a fast and viscous onslaught. It does occur far more often than you think. Saying it doesnt seem to actually occur doesn't mean it cant or wont.

[David Armstrong]

Just read alot of the American Rifleman "Armed Citizen" or even just your news papers and see how many people got into struggles with their assailant (armed or not) and then imagine if their gun was carried chamber empty.

Not sure what struggling with the assailant has to do with much, given that an anaalysis of the Arme Citizen column showed that in 80% of cases the firearm was obtained from a place of storage rather than on the person, frequently in another room.

Anyone here know of any, and I mean any, law enforcement agency in the U.S. that carries chamber empty? How about Europe? Asia? Not talking about military but LEO organizations.

Not real sure what the carry habits of LEOs has to do with non-LE CCW, and I think it is worth pointing out that right off the bat you choose to exclude the most common empty chamber group, the military. And as I've mentioned before, there is the ever-popular "so what?" Unnless someone can show that the most common carry method of the past is now no longer any good, the fact there might be something better doesn't change the fact that it is still good.

[Creature]

you choose to exclude the most common empty chamber group, the military.

I know of no military personnel that stand a watch with a condition 3 sidearm, stateside or overseas. I know I never have. I have only carried a condition 1 sidearm while on duty/watch. And I am still active duty.

[David Armstrong]

This is the only quasi justification (IMHO) to not carry a round in the chamber.

Noting that it is your opinion, I grant your right to that opinion<G>!

This is not a valid argument. This is neither an advantage or disadvantage, as to properly clear a weapon you have to rack lock the slide to the rear and you should never pull the trigger. So, have a round in the chamber would be about the same as not having a round in the chamber - only difference you either have to catch the round from the chamber or pick it up.

Very valid argument. Given the potential problems of bullet setback in some calibers, and given the fact that the most common time for an AD/ND, according to all of my literature, is when clearing or loading the weapon, reducing the problem is quite valid. Carrying chamber empty prevents these problems.

This is not a valid argument. If I chose to carry a gun with an external safety, the safety would be off anyway.

Very valid aragument. Just because that is the way you choose to carry does not make it the best way for others to carry.

More importantly, why would you carry a gun wherein "the safety is hard to get too or to operate."

Because you like the gun, you shoot it well, and you are able to bring it into action quickly and easily from a chamber empty condition, so the safety really doesn't matter that much.

If you can't manipulate a 1911, don't carry it - shoot by all means, but don't CCW.

No problem with manipulation. Draw, rack, fire. Folks have been manipulating the 1911 like that for decades.

This is not a valid argument. Don't carry a gun you find problematic.

Very valid argument. Nobody said to carry a gun you find problematic. The issue was one where the initial DA trigger pull was problematic. FWIW, this is a takeoff of a Jeff Cooper solution to the same problem.

This is not a valid argument. Yes, everything is situational.

Very valid argument. By your own admission it is situational. What makes you think that you (or anybody) knows more about the situation than the person who is living it?

I would like to read a situation that a chambered round was a disadvantage???

Already done that: "....guns that are not equipped with some of the more modern safety designs. Another might be if your situation requires you to load/unload a lot. Some guns the safety is hard to get too or to operate for some people. Others might find the first DA pull of a DA/SA gun to be problematic. Again, it is always situational. What is an advantage for one person in one situation might be a disadvantage for another person or in another situation." Don't like my version? Here. let's try a very popular wroter who I have a great deal of respect for: "Condition Three does have its place for carry, however. If I am carrying a gun like a Glock, which does not have a manual safety per se, and do not have access to a holster which covers the trigger guard (as is strongly recommended by the Glock factory), and have to shove the gun into my waistband, I'll make sure the chamber is empty."---Mas Ayoob, 2001. Mas goes on to say, "The first generation Smith & Wesson autoloaders, produced roughly from 1954 to 1980, theoretically can discharge if dropped hard enough with a live round in the chamber, unless the manual safety is engaged. There are several inexpensive pistols such as the Lorcin and the Raven, to name but two, floating around out there that do not have secure firing pin designs and can discharge from impact if struck or dropped. These should NEVER be carried with live rounds in the chamber. If one must use such a pistol, load only the magazine, and rack the slide to bring a cartridge into the chamber only when you perceive an immediate need to actually fire."

This is not an argument. Either method works fine, if, if, if, you do not have to employ your weapon.

Of course it's not an argument. It is a factual statement. If you don't need to employ your weapon not having a weapon is also a viable option, so I'm not sure what trying to discuss non-weapon issues has to do with this.

You, and others, seem to be arguing that since a new method has come along that reduces some of the problems of the past that the old method that worked so well suddenly is no longer working. That is wrong. Like I said, I tend to support chamber loaded carry, but if someone chooses not to do so they don't lose much, if any, SD capability.