Toxic non-metal primers

Consort · July 22, 2013, 03:38 PM

Recently received some 9mm ammo marked "toxic non-metal primers". Never used these previously. What is different about them? Any negatives for either shooter or weapon?

lee n. field · July 22, 2013, 04:10 PM

Never heard of that. Never heard of "non-metal" primers.

Got a brand name?

Consort · July 22, 2013, 04:32 PM

Federal American Eagle 124 gr. fmj. 50 rd boxes.

Consort · July 22, 2013, 04:37 PM

I messed up. The box reads "toxic metal-free primers". Sorry for the error. Still confused, though.

James K · July 22, 2013, 04:57 PM

Means no mercury, no lead. Most current primers use lead styphnate; some older ones used fulminate of mercury. Both lead and mercury are toxic metals.

Jim

Jim Watson · July 22, 2013, 05:13 PM

The first wave of lead free primers contained barium, which was not a great improvement. The current crop is made with an organic compound known as Dinol, no metallic content at all.

It has been many years since an American or West world primer contained mercury. I think even the iron curtain and third world have long since given it up.

Consort · July 22, 2013, 05:48 PM

So they're o.k. to use with the usual precautions ??

lee n. field · July 22, 2013, 06:23 PM

should be.

James K · July 22, 2013, 06:35 PM

I think there was some match ammo as late as 1950 loaded with mercuric primers, though I could be wrong. The problem in those days was not that mercury was poisonous to people (I don't think anyone really knew or cared) but that it was poisonous to brass, making it brittle and not reloadable.

Jim

Jim Watson · July 23, 2013, 12:37 AM

I think that mercuric primed Western Match .30 and .300 hung on as late as 1960. But the US Army dropped mercuric primers about 1898.

Some European makers produced noncorrosive primers that were actually mercuric around 1930. They did not last long, the styphnate primers came out before WWII.

**Mike Irwin** · July 23, 2013, 08:18 AM

Are you sure that it says toxic, and not NON-toxic?

Non toxic is the coming wave in primers.

"It has been many years since an American or West world primer contained mercury."

The last mecuric primers loaded in the United States were in match ammunition produced in the 1960s in .30-06 and .308.

The primers were also corrosive.

The boxes were marked that the brass was not suitable for reloading and should be disposed of upon firing.

Somewhere in my collection I have a box.

Eley Tenex .22 Match ammunition was still being loaded with mercuric, corrosive priming until sometime in the 1970s or 1980s.

I've been told that the change over was when Eley switched from paper boxes to plastic.

I knew several competitors at Camp Perry who actively sought out every source of paper boxed Tenex that they could find.

Jim Watson · July 23, 2013, 08:53 AM

I never heard of corrosive Tenex.
I seldom hear of a smallbore shooter that cleans his barrel much if at all, and no reports of rusty guns.

**Mike Irwin** · July 23, 2013, 10:03 AM

That's what I was told by several shooters at Camp Perry, including Ron West, who won several Perry championships.

I've never bought a box of Tenex.

I've also just found other references to corrosively primed Tenex having been out of production for about 30 years now, but certainly nothing definitive.

Consort · July 23, 2013, 12:51 PM

Yup. Box says "Toxic Metal-Free Primer". This ammo was ordered through a vendor on Ammoseek. I thought I was purchasing what I had ordered previously. The product number on the the Toxic Metal Free Primer box reads AE9N1. The product number on the previous ammo ordered reads AE9AP. Both are 9mm 124 gr fmj's.

southjk · July 23, 2013, 01:04 PM

Is this what you have?

Consort · July 23, 2013, 01:54 PM

Yes. Slightly different package design, but same terminology and same product number.

**Mike Irwin** · July 23, 2013, 02:54 PM

Ah, OK, makes sense now.

Toxic-metal free is a LOT different from toxic non-metal or toxic metal-free.

Toxic-metal free means there are no toxic metals like lead or mercury.

The other two mean the primers are toxic, but they don't have any metal in them.

Sevens · July 26, 2013, 10:34 PM

I think if we put it in quotes, it's a bit easier to understand what they are trying to say.

They are saying the product is "toxic metal" free, meaning... it doesn't contain any of the bad metals.

If it said "TOXIC!" and "metal free" that might be alarming!

IIRC, the early examples of "clean" ammunition was found by handloaders to have enlarged flash holes. I believe the *new* lead-free primers didn't have the same oomph as the primers we've grown accustomed to, so the flash hole was enlarged to compensate.

I'm not sure of this, but it's what I seem to remember. Also seems as those small-primer .45 ACP brass was hitting about the same time. Are the two related?

Jim Watson · July 26, 2013, 10:47 PM

The present nonmetallic primer mix has MORE "oomph" than lead styphnate.
The early Winclean large primer NT had larger flashholes to vent the greater flash into the case. So they went small which uses less of the expensive stuff to begin with.

**Mike Irwin** · July 27, 2013, 08:12 AM

That's what the hyphens are for, as putting it in quotes could mean something entirely different.

It should be written:

toxic-metal-free primers

The first three words are adjectives modifying the word primers.

Sevens · July 27, 2013, 11:23 AM

I like my way better.

July 22, 2013, 03:38 PM	#1
Consort Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2011 Posts: 134	Toxic non-metal primers Recently received some 9mm ammo marked "toxic non-metal primers". Never used these previously. What is different about them? Any negatives for either shooter or weapon?

July 22, 2013, 04:10 PM	#2
lee n. field Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2002 Location: The same state as Mordor. Posts: 5,568	Never heard of that. Never heard of "non-metal" primers. Got a brand name? __________________ "As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. "

July 22, 2013, 04:37 PM	#4
Consort Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2011 Posts: 134	Clarification I messed up. The box reads "toxic metal-free primers". Sorry for the error. Still confused, though.

July 22, 2013, 06:23 PM	#8
lee n. field Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2002 Location: The same state as Mordor. Posts: 5,568	should be. __________________ "As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. "

July 23, 2013, 08:18 AM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Are you sure that it says toxic, and not NON-toxic? Non toxic is the coming wave in primers. "It has been many years since an American or West world primer contained mercury." The last mecuric primers loaded in the United States were in match ammunition produced in the 1960s in .30-06 and .308. The primers were also corrosive. The boxes were marked that the brass was not suitable for reloading and should be disposed of upon firing. Somewhere in my collection I have a box. Eley Tenex .22 Match ammunition was still being loaded with mercuric, corrosive priming until sometime in the 1970s or 1980s. I've been told that the change over was when Eley switched from paper boxes to plastic. I knew several competitors at Camp Perry who actively sought out every source of paper boxed Tenex that they could find. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 22, 2013, 04:32 PM	#3
Consort Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2011 Posts: 134	Federal American Eagle 124 gr. fmj. 50 rd boxes.

July 22, 2013, 04:57 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Means no mercury, no lead. Most current primers use lead styphnate; some older ones used fulminate of mercury. Both lead and mercury are toxic metals. Jim

July 22, 2013, 05:13 PM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	The first wave of lead free primers contained barium, which was not a great improvement. The current crop is made with an organic compound known as Dinol, no metallic content at all. It has been many years since an American or West world primer contained mercury. I think even the iron curtain and third world have long since given it up.

July 22, 2013, 05:48 PM	#7
Consort Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2011 Posts: 134	So they're o.k. to use with the usual precautions ??

July 22, 2013, 06:35 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I think there was some match ammo as late as 1950 loaded with mercuric primers, though I could be wrong. The problem in those days was not that mercury was poisonous to people (I don't think anyone really knew or cared) but that it was poisonous to brass, making it brittle and not reloadable. Jim

July 23, 2013, 12:37 AM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	I think that mercuric primed Western Match .30 and .300 hung on as late as 1960. But the US Army dropped mercuric primers about 1898. Some European makers produced noncorrosive primers that were actually mercuric around 1930. They did not last long, the styphnate primers came out before WWII.

July 23, 2013, 08:53 AM	#12
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	I never heard of corrosive Tenex. I seldom hear of a smallbore shooter that cleans his barrel much if at all, and no reports of rusty guns.

July 23, 2013, 10:03 AM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	That's what I was told by several shooters at Camp Perry, including Ron West, who won several Perry championships. I've never bought a box of Tenex. I've also just found other references to corrosively primed Tenex having been out of production for about 30 years now, but certainly nothing definitive. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. Last edited by Mike Irwin; July 23, 2013 at 10:08 AM.

July 23, 2013, 12:51 PM	#14
Consort Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2011 Posts: 134	Yup. Box says "Toxic Metal-Free Primer". This ammo was ordered through a vendor on Ammoseek. I thought I was purchasing what I had ordered previously. The product number on the the Toxic Metal Free Primer box reads AE9N1. The product number on the previous ammo ordered reads AE9AP. Both are 9mm 124 gr fmj's.

July 23, 2013, 01:04 PM	#15
southjk Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2012 Location: Memphis Posts: 468	Is this what you have?

July 23, 2013, 01:54 PM	#16
Consort Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2011 Posts: 134	Yes. Slightly different package design, but same terminology and same product number.

July 23, 2013, 02:54 PM	#17
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Ah, OK, makes sense now. Toxic-metal free is a LOT different from toxic non-metal or toxic metal-free. Toxic-metal free means there are no toxic metals like lead or mercury. The other two mean the primers are toxic, but they don't have any metal in them. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 26, 2013, 10:34 PM	#18
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I think if we put it in quotes, it's a bit easier to understand what they are trying to say. They are saying the product is "toxic metal" free, meaning... it doesn't contain any of the bad metals. If it said "TOXIC!" and "metal free" that might be alarming! IIRC, the early examples of "clean" ammunition was found by handloaders to have enlarged flash holes. I believe the new lead-free primers didn't have the same oomph as the primers we've grown accustomed to, so the flash hole was enlarged to compensate. I'm not sure of this, but it's what I seem to remember. Also seems as those small-primer .45 ACP brass was hitting about the same time. Are the two related? __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

July 26, 2013, 10:47 PM	#19
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	The present nonmetallic primer mix has MORE "oomph" than lead styphnate. The early Winclean large primer NT had larger flashholes to vent the greater flash into the case. So they went small which uses less of the expensive stuff to begin with.

July 27, 2013, 08:12 AM	#20
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	That's what the hyphens are for, as putting it in quotes could mean something entirely different. It should be written: toxic-metal-free primers The first three words are adjectives modifying the word primers. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 27, 2013, 11:23 AM	#21
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I like my way better. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.