Garand front sight vs laser bore sighting??

[Conrad67]

I recently purchased a .062 competition front sight for my M1 Garand.

To install it, I zeroed the rear sight and laser bore sighted the front sight. However, when I went to the range, it was not shooting where it was bore sighted, so I readjusted the front sight. After returning home, I double checked the front sight with the laser bore sight. I installed and reinstalled the laser to confirm where it was consistantly pointing, but again it showed the front sight to be off.

How can the laser sight point one way and the gun shoot the other? I suppose it's possible to have a bad laser bore sighter, but is there another answer?

Does anyone know of a better way to set a new front sight at zero? It is not easy to adjust or move with percision.

Thank you.

[4EVERM-14]

How far off was it?
Garands have a lot of things hanging on the barrel. These effect the POI. Eye sight, position, grip as well as weather are factors. Don't overate bore sighters.
Just set up so the rear sight is centered with about 7-10 clicks up for 200 yards.
Today's zero is today's zero.

[mehavey]

How can the laser [bore] sight point one way and the gun shoot the other?

QUESTION: Just how far "other" was it shooting?

[Conrad67]

At 25 yards it was approximately 3-4 inches off.

Is there a better way to properly set the front sight?

I tried the old-fashioned method of loosing it and moving it to adjust for the shot, but it goes from tight to loose in a 1/16 of a turn.

[mehavey]

The front sight ?
Is centered front/rear and rear cranked all the way down that far off to start?

[bamaranger]

Sorry, I/m a bit lost. But there are some sharp Garand/service rifle guys on site,and I bet you'll hear more.

Till then, here's my bit. If your on paper at 25, or close to POA with the laser, I'd say its job is done.

I'd move to 100, shoot for group, and adjust to "on" using the rear sight for both windage and elevation. I would then recalibrate the windage to zero and elevation drum to 100 and call it good. The drums can be adjusted w/o moving the aperature, when the tightening screws are loosened a bit.

I'd center the new front sight by simply measurng it at the base.

[kraigwy]

This works for other rifles, not just the Garand.

Set the rear sight on the zero mark. Shoot the rifle at 100 yards and see how left or right you are.

(assuming your elevation is known)

Measure your sight radius. Divide the sight radius by 3600 (100 yards / 36 inches = 3600 inches).

Using the Garand, the sight radius is 28 inches. 28/3600 =.0078

Each .0078 movement of the front sight will move the bullet impact 1 inches.

If you are 5 inches to the left or right of center, it would be 5 X .0078 = .039

Meaning to center your front sight you need to move the front sight .039 inches.

This works with any rifle. It also works with elevation.

Using the Garand again. We know that each click of the rear sight is 1 in. per hundred yards.

The rear sight of the average Garand is 6-8 clicks at 100 yards. Lets say you have to come up 15 clicks to get to 100 yards but you want it at 8 clicks.

15-8= 7

Meaning you want to lower your group 7 inches. 7 x .0078 = .0546. Filing down your front sight .0546, will raise your group 7 inches. Therefore you can count down from the 15 zero to 8 clicks and you should be zeroed for 100 yards. Set your 100 on your elevation dial to the mark on your sight base and you should be 8 clicks up from the bottom.

Let me know if you need to know how to set the rear sight markings to your zero.

[James K]

A bore sighter, laser or any other kind, is intended to allow the shooter to get on the target paper at 100/200 yards. After that, the rifle has to be sighted in the old fashioned way, by firing live ammo and adjusting the sights accordingly.

Jim

[Dfariswheel]

Keep in mind that the M1 barrel is screwed on, and the sight is attached to the barrel by rather complicated splines on the barrel itself.
Plus the front sight itself may be machined "off" slightly.

All this combines to make it "iffy" if the sights agree 100% with the bore.
As example if the barrel is not at absolute 100% 12:00 O'clock top-dead-center the groups will be off.

If the gas cylinder is mounted slightly canted due to manufacturing the rifle will be off.
If the dovetail on the gas cylinder is slightly off the rifle will shoot off.

If the front sight is not perfectly machined it will shoot off.

Remember, M1 rifles have almost all been rebarreled, rebuilt, and treated indifferently by foreign users and American military schools, honor guards, VFW's, exc.
Barrels may not have been installed perfectly, parts will have been switched, and the rifle may tend to shoot off, no matter what a laser says.

[jmr40]

A bore sighter, laser or any other kind, is intended to allow the shooter to get on the target paper at 100/200 yards.

In my experience on paper at 25-50 yards is optimistic. I can see them saving you one cartridge getting a semi-auto zeroed. But with a bolt gun that can be bore sighted I've always been closer without any type of bore sight tool.


They are all a waste of money.

[johnwilliamson062]

I have to agree with JMR40. When i use them I have to sight at 25 and often make pretty large adjustments. I then move to 50 or 100 and adjust again.

I've owned two laser systems and gave both away with no regrets. The one that sticks in the end of the barrel was really bad, the one that had a cartridge that had to be chambered was just pretty bad.

[Conrad67]

Gentlemen, thanks for so many helpful suggestions.

First; I removed the front sight and tightened the set-screw as much as possible to crimp the new front sight and let it set for the night. After re-installing it, the sight was much tighter on the garand front sight mount.

Secong; I re-installed and re-'laser bore adjusted' the front sight.

Third; I went back to the range with 30 rounds. The sight was bore-sighted with the front sight on the right side of the rifle barrel. By the end of the sesion, the front sight was on the left side of the barrel. Because the sight was snug, I was now able to loosen it and make small adjustments.

I zeroed it at 50 yards. Past 50 yards, I don't know if variations are me or the rifle.

I am confident that the front sight is as zero as I can get it.

It goes to show that laser bore sights are not the 'end all be all' of accuracy.

[Slamfire]

I recently purchased a .062 competition front sight for my M1 Garand

A comment on that sight. It was made for the 5V target. The combat post is far too wide to use on the 5V target, especially at 500 yards. The old 5V target was a tiny dot, and it was the correct diameter for an 03 Springfield post. The target was used up to the 60's when the better decimal target was adopted. One thing about the decimal, the bull was wider at 500 yards.

This is the 200 and 300 yard 5V, you could use the combat front sight with it, but it would be a bit wide. At 300 yards it was getting tiny.




This is the 500 yard 5V above the old NRA 500 yard decimal. Ring diameter has changed, and is smaller. The 500 5V was like a pin point and a combat front sight was way too wide.



If you use the 6 OC hole, the 0.062" front will give a good sight picture, but it is too narrow for a flat tire or center hold. I used center hold, and the standard combat sight works great as it is wider than the bull at distance.

As for zeroing, but bore sight devices don't do, is mimic the dynamics of combustion and recoil. A bore sight device should get you on paper, but once there, adjust based on what the rifle is doing.