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November 8, 2009, 08:08 PM | #26 | |||
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Is 'nothing' now the standard against which we gauge self defense choices? I think more often than not, the issue isn't whether something is better than nothing but whether something is better than some other viable choice. Quote:
I did see where ADF&G thinks carrying a gun is more dangerous to the carrier than being attacked by a bear... Quote:
This Ph.D. in Alaska cited Herrera's work, but noted of the Alaska cases he studied, pepper spray was only effective 87% of the time. http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/br...epperspray.htm
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November 9, 2009, 01:06 AM | #27 |
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Ask and ye shall receive...
http://gf.state.wy.us/downloads/pdf/...ar%20spray.pdf "Of all persons carrying sprays, 98% were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters. All bear inflicted injuries (n¼3) associated with defensive spraying involved brown bears and were relatively minor (i.e., no hospitalization required). In 7% (5 of 71) of bear spray incidents, wind was reported to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached the bear in all cases." This isn't the study I referred to in my initial post, but it brings up some of the points... I'll have to find the good one, I read it over a year ago...
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November 9, 2009, 07:49 AM | #28 |
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Excellent, and thank you. However, no wonder I could not find it. While the data are from Alaska, the % was off (which befuddles search engines) the report isn't by the ADF&G, but by several scholars not part of the ADF&G and jointly published in JWM.
It should be pointed out that residue from the spray can have negative effects and be an attractant. In the cited study in JWM, there were folks who reported everything from minor irritation from the spray to near incapacitation. So after using pepper spray in an attack, a thorough washing might be in order. http://books.google.com/books?id=gFl...actant&f=false Still, pepper spray seems to be a very good way to go against bears.
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November 9, 2009, 11:36 AM | #29 |
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So now we know without a doubt that a .45 acp either will or will not work on bear. Glad I read this thread.
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November 9, 2009, 12:04 PM | #30 |
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If you use the search function you can find a story of an Oregon man killing a bear with a 1911.
The only problem I've heard of with bear spray is that bears find the smell attractive. So make sure there's no residue or leaks from the sprayer, or you'll smell like a taco with hot sauce. |
November 9, 2009, 07:44 PM | #31 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights. |
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December 31, 2009, 11:01 PM | #32 |
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230 FMJ/FP @ 1050fps
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December 31, 2009, 11:38 PM | #33 |
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As far as a pistol goes, a .45 is dammm good. Especially for the big critters. If you're seriously treading in wild bear country, consider a carbine. You'd have better aim, less recoil, and more firepower. Even a little .223 carbine, like a mini or an AR, would suit you better. Wouldn't be able to carry it on your hip though! That's the thing with pistols vs. carbines.
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January 1, 2010, 07:28 PM | #34 |
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huh
i know little about bears however i have had alot of experience with armed people in defensive situations and people are not even CLOSE to 87% accurate in a situation like that. and when in doubt listen to the man who live on KODIAK ISLAND!!!!! isnt that like bear attack headquarters
i say take both and use the pistol as backup due to legality issues. oh my two sense btw yes it would kill the bear as it was walking away from your cooling corpse
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January 1, 2010, 08:01 PM | #35 |
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In answering your question, I have killed one black bear and one whitetail buck with my .45 ACP. First off, the whitetail. I had been hunting, walking, and was totally tired out, having walked all day and had seen nothing. I was in a big deep canyon, that had a little dry creek in the bottom that was washed out about 4 feet deep. I had been walking that canyon when I decided to rest, and had sat down and leaned back against a big hackberry tree about 10 feet from the little dry creek. I dozed off then woke up to see the head and rack of this white tail buck ***** footing towards me in that little creek, and not being able to get my rifle, I pulled my .45 out of my shoulder holster and popped him in the neck when he passed by me. Grave yard dead right there.
The bear. About 20 years ago I had taken a youth group into the Sangre de Cristo Mountains of Southern Colorado. From previous experience, I knew that area had bears, and I took my .45. One full moon night, I awoke to find Yogi with his head in my tent. I reached under my pillow and got my .45 and pointed it up at him and he took it in his mouth, and I pulled the trigger. I must say that it did the job. There wasnt time to get scared in that situation, however the next half hour was traumatic. God and I had a personal visit. Technically, the .45 ACP will work. However, it is not a legal cartridge in many states. You need to contact the different states and get their advice. If I were to do that again I would certainly take my .45 Colt. It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.
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January 4, 2010, 07:58 PM | #36 | |
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January 9, 2010, 09:12 AM | #37 |
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We have quite few large black bears in N.H. and the last bear attack was well over 100 years ago. Many people run into then picking berries, not that it couldn't happen but the 2 legged would be my greater concern. As far as the 45acp, I would rather have a Ruger GP100 357 with 180gr Nosler partitions for bear. The GP100 is rugged, accurate and small and light enough for easy carry. If I were set on the 45acp I am not sure if I would opt for ball ammo for bear, but then again a good bonded 230 grain may be the answer. As far as 2 legged predators I would want a good hollow-point.
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January 11, 2010, 10:43 PM | #38 |
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mountain gun
a .45acp in my opinion is not enough gun for large game like a bear. I would take my ruger chambered in .454 casull that will take care of any game in the woods.
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January 11, 2010, 11:35 PM | #39 |
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kill or stop? (using only a handgun)
Want to kill the bear in 2 hours+ or stop the bear from closing the last 2'?
At minimum, I'd want a hand-loaded 180grain "hard" cast alloy bullet full charged in a 357 revolver, but I'd feel safer with a 44RM, 454 Casul, or S&W 460 revolver if I wanted to stop a bruin. My all-steel 44RM revolver's bear-load I buy from Garrett Cartridges. garrettcartridges.com/products.aspl |
January 12, 2010, 04:56 PM | #40 |
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357magfan You do know as a 357 fan you can get 200 gr and 180 gr rounds that are hotter than the baddest 10mm and out of a rifle,, better yet, If you can access it when needed. Good to have a gun but do by a bear spray, one of those big bottles just for them bears. And rely on a pistol/rifle only as a last chance or personal protection. A 12gauge with remington buck hammers in it would also be tough on anything and would keep people away. !8" barrel and folding stock would carry in top of pack with little notice. Just keep the spray handy.
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January 12, 2010, 05:38 PM | #41 | |
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Quote:
But I agree; I'd prefer a heavy loaded .45 Colt, and in fact that's usually what I carry outdoors. Daryl |
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January 13, 2010, 08:39 PM | #42 |
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daryl , We have to have a 357 power level and a barrel of 6 inch's but this would be a last resort weapon and not a hunting gun.. To think that these 2" short barreled s&w 460's and 500's would not be legal here. But how far can it hit a target with it if it's running and grawling? Take a buddy you can out run, then you have less to worry about.
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January 13, 2010, 09:28 PM | #43 |
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Hardluk,
Here our reg's just say, "centerfire rifle" and "centerfire handgun". According to the law, a 2" barreled .25 acp would be legal for bear hunting. I reckon they expect Arizona hunters to use common sense. I mostly carry a SA .45 Colt with a 4 5/8ths inch barrel, and I don't have much trouble hitting what I aim at with it. Daryl |
January 13, 2010, 10:23 PM | #44 |
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Black bears I know a little about. I have a hunting partner that tried to whack one with a 45. I cannot begin to tell you what his load was. I can tell you he now carries a 44 Ruger. He did kill the bear, with my 308. An agitated bear with hounds etc is harder to kill than a relaxed bear. I would guess a bear looking to eat you would also be somewhat agitated.
I did have a she bear with cubs charge me, twice. She came at me, ran away, then came back again, then went up a tree with her babies. I didn't feel much fear at that time. I do remember reaching for the bolt snap on the hounds, thinking she ain't gonna get us all tied together. Had a bear charge me once, turned him with a 308 under the chin, through everything that he needed to function and stopped under his hide by the hip. Knocked him down, but he got up. He was under 200 pounds dressed. A bear is a tough animal. IMO a 45 is far superior to a sharp stick. I have no experience with the Appalachian trail. Are there that many bad guys out there? Few will call a 45 under gunned for a BG. I know about bears that have been trained to take food packs from hikers in the Porcupine Mountains. They are destroyed by the Rangers. Hikers train the bear. Goes like this see a bear, drop food pack and split. Yogi likes picinic baskets. Some become very insistent about the packs. It makes it easier for the Rangers to figure out which one to neutralize. !0 years ago or so a black bear tried to make off with a boy scout in NW Wisconsin. The lad had a brave leader that ran the bear off. A houndman was called out the next day and he neutralized the bear. I would say you have a better chance of being hit by lightning than have a bear try to eat you. However, should a bear be trying to eat you, a 45 would be better than nothing. It won't do you any good in your pack, that's for sure.
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