SAAMI Specs?

DaHaMac · February 16, 2002, 01:24 PM

Where can one find the official SAAMI specs for cartridges? I have been to the SAAMI homepage and didn't find any info.

Everyone talks about SAAMI specs, but rarely do I see an "Official" source quoted or footnoted.

This is a curious interest for me and I figure reloaders would be the right people to ask. Especially since these pressures concern us when we reload.

I need to check my reloading books, and this question is admittedly asked without first researching to an great deal; but will the "official" source compare PSI pressure data and CUP pressure data? It is curious how the reloading books will list certain rounds in PSI and other in CUP. Heck, I am looking at the .454 data in the Hodgon book as I type and for Hodgdon powder they list the CUP pressures and for Winchester they list the PSI pressures.

Thanks in Advance for any helpful information, links, or clues that will aid in expanding our collective reloading knowledge.

sricciardelli · February 16, 2002, 02:36 PM

http://stevespages.com/page8.htm and go to Table #3.

DaHaMac · February 16, 2002, 04:55 PM

Good link sricciardelli, and to think I've been to Steve's Pages before and missed that.

However, several calibers that I am looking for were missing; 45colt +P, 10mm, and .454 and there was no way to date the specs listed. I am trying to nail down the current SAAMI specs in both CUP and PSI for these calibers.

Any references to to older data would be great too, I am interested in seeing the evolution of SAAMI specs.

If I was a cat, I'd be dead

WESHOOT2 · February 17, 2002, 10:50 PM

NO such thing as 45 Colt +P..........

C.R.Sam · February 18, 2002, 01:16 AM

Would not...

Anything between 100 percent and 110 percent of SAAMI spec for .45 Colt be, by their defination, considered +P ?

Between 14,000 and 15,400 PEAK pressure.

Sam

WESHOOT2 · February 18, 2002, 01:30 AM

Should we ask? Or will we just get a safety lecture?

For those who've been here a while, insert my motto here LOL.

(C.R.Sam, makes sense, but I still think we're not going to get an official +P level for 45 Colt)

DaHaMac · February 18, 2002, 06:09 PM

Sorry guys, by saying .45Colt +P I meant to imply .45Colt Ruger, Freedom Arms, or T/C loads. The 27th Hodgdon book sets a limit of 30,000cup for these ".45Colt +P" loads. Of course we all know what Linebaugh and Casull can do with .45colt loads that is why I own a .454

Here is one of my current interests, the 10mm. Now, my dilemma: What is the "safe" pressure levels for the 10mm. I have seen a number of conflicting reports. I'll attempt to document those reports here.

1. Hodgdon 27th max pressure in PSI: 36,900
2. Speer #13 max pressure in PSI: 37,500
3. http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm01.html case max pressure 53,000cup [I have to wonder about the source of this information, and how CUP compares to PSI in this case]
4. http://www.calweb.com/~haas/ammoguide/runammo.html "Loads ranging from a mean working pressure of 37,000 psi and a maximum pressure of 44,000 psi"

This is the type of convulted information that has created my dilemma and my curiosity regarding these "Industry Standards" or "SAAMI" specifications. If no one agrees on the standards in the industry, well then the reloader who is curious can find themselves in deep hooey and a face full of steel, brass, and lead.

I also am keenly aware that alot of these variables are dependant on EACH individual gun, and because my SRH .454 is proof tested to 92,000psi and can operate with a pressure of 62,000psi (http://www.modernapplicationsnews.co...1stainless.htm) does not mean that I will ever dare to load anywhere near those levels. This redneck might be dumb, but I ain't st00pid; least not all the time NEways.

Steve Smith · February 19, 2002, 03:31 PM

As you said in your last paragraph, th measurements depend on individual guns. Knowing the SAAMI specs does almost diddly squat for the handloader. Our guns are so different than when SAAMI uses (pressure barrel) and so different from what powder companies use (whatever they have on hand in that caliber) that we can't ascertain much if any from their info. The best we can do is to carefully watch speeds and case performance, and stop when we feel we've pushed hard enough. Since much testing has been done on the .45 Colt case, and it has shown that the case itself will handle over 92,000 CUP before damage, it is no surprise that Linebaugh, Casull, and others have found that the case will show NO indications of excess pressure untill you're in danger of destroying the gun, or beyond that level. IOW, looking at the case doesn't help with the .45 Colt. The best you can do is watch your speed, the primer (hope it responds), and barrel condition if your bullet quality is known. Penetration tests show that the 325 to 350 grain .45 bullets reach their maximum efficiency at 1300 to 1350 fps. While they can be pushed much faster, the penetration does not increase much. These bullets at that speed should not present a dangerous condition for a Ruger or FA, assuming all is in good working order, and assuming that you use the proper powders.

These kinds of loads are about 200% of max .45 Colt PSI levels, and SHOULD get some type of ++++P designation, but the rest of the world just keeps going on like the .45 Colt is a dead cartridge.

DaHaMac · February 19, 2002, 06:27 PM

Yup, I love the .45Colt

That was good food for thought Steve, thanks a heap.

Here is a possible answer to my dilemma:
Part 1 of the answer; buy a chronograph! Hmmmm, looks like the chrony really needs to move up on my list.

Part 2 of the answer would then be; know the individual gun implicity, learn the cartridge, and push no further than is efficient (example: 1 grain of powder for 10fps) at accomplishing a preset goal based on the sum of gun and cartridge history.

So, instead of being overly concerned about exceeding SAAMI specs I should instead concern myself with setting prudent goals for a caliber. Once the goal is set appears to be the stage at where the enjoyement begins in reloading as one tailors a cartridge to an individual gun in order to meet the preset goal.

WESHOOT2 · February 19, 2002, 06:53 PM

Superb advice, and common-sense answers.

.....in YOUR gun.....

C.R.Sam · February 19, 2002, 07:57 PM

Chronos cheaper than most guns.
And hands n stuff.

Fun too.

Sam

ryucasta · February 19, 2002, 08:34 PM

Check out QuickLOAD Internal Ballistics software, I use this as a starting point when I'm developing a load.

http://www.neconos.com/

Steve Smith · February 20, 2002, 12:22 AM

Some og the best reloading advice I've ever recieved was from John Taffin. He told me, "If you have to push it harder, you're using the wrong caliber." Sage wisdom.

February 16, 2002, 02:36 PM	#2
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	http://stevespages.com/page8.htm and go to Table #3. __________________ http://stevespages.com/page8.htm

February 17, 2002, 10:50 PM	#4
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	FAIRY TALES NO such thing as 45 Colt +P.......... __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

February 18, 2002, 01:30 AM	#6
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	I DON'T KNOW Should we ask? Or will we just get a safety lecture? For those who've been here a while, insert my motto here LOL. (C.R.Sam, makes sense, but I still think we're not going to get an official +P level for 45 Colt) __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

February 19, 2002, 03:31 PM	#8
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	As you said in your last paragraph, th measurements depend on individual guns. Knowing the SAAMI specs does almost diddly squat for the handloader. Our guns are so different than when SAAMI uses (pressure barrel) and so different from what powder companies use (whatever they have on hand in that caliber) that we can't ascertain much if any from their info. The best we can do is to carefully watch speeds and case performance, and stop when we feel we've pushed hard enough. Since much testing has been done on the .45 Colt case, and it has shown that the case itself will handle over 92,000 CUP before damage, it is no surprise that Linebaugh, Casull, and others have found that the case will show NO indications of excess pressure untill you're in danger of destroying the gun, or beyond that level. IOW, looking at the case doesn't help with the .45 Colt. The best you can do is watch your speed, the primer (hope it responds), and barrel condition if your bullet quality is known. Penetration tests show that the 325 to 350 grain .45 bullets reach their maximum efficiency at 1300 to 1350 fps. While they can be pushed much faster, the penetration does not increase much. These bullets at that speed should not present a dangerous condition for a Ruger or FA, assuming all is in good working order, and assuming that you use the proper powders. These kinds of loads are about 200% of max .45 Colt PSI levels, and SHOULD get some type of ++++P designation, but the rest of the world just keeps going on like the .45 Colt is a dead cartridge. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

February 19, 2002, 06:53 PM	#10
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	CLEAR THINKING Superb advice, and common-sense answers. .....in YOUR gun..... __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

February 16, 2002, 01:24 PM	#1
DaHaMac Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2000 Location: West Central Georgia Posts: 247	SAAMI Specs? Where can one find the official SAAMI specs for cartridges? I have been to the SAAMI homepage and didn't find any info. Everyone talks about SAAMI specs, but rarely do I see an "Official" source quoted or footnoted. This is a curious interest for me and I figure reloaders would be the right people to ask. Especially since these pressures concern us when we reload. I need to check my reloading books, and this question is admittedly asked without first researching to an great deal; but will the "official" source compare PSI pressure data and CUP pressure data? It is curious how the reloading books will list certain rounds in PSI and other in CUP. Heck, I am looking at the .454 data in the Hodgon book as I type and for Hodgdon powder they list the CUP pressures and for Winchester they list the PSI pressures. Thanks in Advance for any helpful information, links, or clues that will aid in expanding our collective reloading knowledge.

February 16, 2002, 04:55 PM	#3
DaHaMac Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2000 Location: West Central Georgia Posts: 247	Good link sricciardelli, and to think I've been to Steve's Pages before and missed that. However, several calibers that I am looking for were missing; 45colt +P, 10mm, and .454 and there was no way to date the specs listed. I am trying to nail down the current SAAMI specs in both CUP and PSI for these calibers. Any references to to older data would be great too, I am interested in seeing the evolution of SAAMI specs. If I was a cat, I'd be dead

February 18, 2002, 01:16 AM	#5
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Would not... Anything between 100 percent and 110 percent of SAAMI spec for .45 Colt be, by their defination, considered +P ? Between 14,000 and 15,400 PEAK pressure. Sam

February 18, 2002, 06:09 PM	#7
DaHaMac Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2000 Location: West Central Georgia Posts: 247	Sorry guys, by saying .45Colt +P I meant to imply .45Colt Ruger, Freedom Arms, or T/C loads. The 27th Hodgdon book sets a limit of 30,000cup for these ".45Colt +P" loads. Of course we all know what Linebaugh and Casull can do with .45colt loads that is why I own a .454 Here is one of my current interests, the 10mm. Now, my dilemma: What is the "safe" pressure levels for the 10mm. I have seen a number of conflicting reports. I'll attempt to document those reports here. 1. Hodgdon 27th max pressure in PSI: 36,900 2. Speer #13 max pressure in PSI: 37,500 3. http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm01.html case max pressure 53,000cup [I have to wonder about the source of this information, and how CUP compares to PSI in this case] 4. http://www.calweb.com/~haas/ammoguide/runammo.html "Loads ranging from a mean working pressure of 37,000 psi and a maximum pressure of 44,000 psi" This is the type of convulted information that has created my dilemma and my curiosity regarding these "Industry Standards" or "SAAMI" specifications. If no one agrees on the standards in the industry, well then the reloader who is curious can find themselves in deep hooey and a face full of steel, brass, and lead. I also am keenly aware that alot of these variables are dependant on EACH individual gun, and because my SRH .454 is proof tested to 92,000psi and can operate with a pressure of 62,000psi (http://www.modernapplicationsnews.co...1stainless.htm) does not mean that I will ever dare to load anywhere near those levels. This redneck might be dumb, but I ain't st00pid; least not all the time NEways.

February 19, 2002, 06:27 PM	#9
DaHaMac Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2000 Location: West Central Georgia Posts: 247	Yup, I love the .45Colt That was good food for thought Steve, thanks a heap. Here is a possible answer to my dilemma: Part 1 of the answer; buy a chronograph! Hmmmm, looks like the chrony really needs to move up on my list. Part 2 of the answer would then be; know the individual gun implicity, learn the cartridge, and push no further than is efficient (example: 1 grain of powder for 10fps) at accomplishing a preset goal based on the sum of gun and cartridge history. So, instead of being overly concerned about exceeding SAAMI specs I should instead concern myself with setting prudent goals for a caliber. Once the goal is set appears to be the stage at where the enjoyement begins in reloading as one tailors a cartridge to an individual gun in order to meet the preset goal.

February 19, 2002, 07:57 PM	#11
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Chronos cheaper than most guns. And hands n stuff. Fun too. Sam

February 19, 2002, 08:34 PM	#12
ryucasta Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 431	Check out QuickLOAD Internal Ballistics software, I use this as a starting point when I'm developing a load. http://www.neconos.com/

February 20, 2002, 12:22 AM	#13
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Some og the best reloading advice I've ever recieved was from John Taffin. He told me, "If you have to push it harder, you're using the wrong caliber." Sage wisdom. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member