Cross domanince

Gbro · April 14, 2012, 09:06 PM

upon assessing the student in firearms safety class I was overwhelmed with the number of cross dominant students.
There are 21 students with one being a lefty.
I then planned to re-asses later during marksmanship night. We have a Dasiy Laser trainer and I let my teaching partner take that while I covered another topic with half the class and then asked him how it went as he wasn't present the first night.
He was astonished also,
Seven student, 1/3rd of this class is cross dominant!
And sadly, when introducing left hand to one student, his dad wouldn't allow this student to shoot left hand. We have some work ahead of us on this one!

TexasJustice7 · April 15, 2012, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Gbro: upon assessing the student in firearms safety class I was overwhelmed with the number of cross dominant students.
There are 21 students with one being a lefty.
I then planned to re-asses later during marksmanship night. We have a Dasiy Laser trainer and I let my teaching partner take that while I covered another topic with half the class and then asked him how it went as he wasn't present the first night.
He was astonished also,

That describes me. I am left hand dominant but right eye dominant. I never knew that during my time in the Marine Corp. I always shot left handed, and did not learn I was right eye dominant till I started shooting handguns and got my CHL several years ago.

Jamas · April 15, 2012, 07:55 AM

It is not an uncommon thing from what I've seen. I am actually left eye and left hand dominate, but I do everything right handed. I had no idea I was all mixed up until a few years ago.
I pretty much do everything right handed still... with a handgun I aim with my dominate eye with both eyes open, but shoulder fired weapons I do righty shutting my left eye.

BGutzman · April 15, 2012, 08:38 AM

Some people can train enough to the point that they can choose the dominant eye.... We use shooting glasses with a piece of paper taped over the opposite eye, so if they are shooting right handed the right eye is the only eye with clear sight...

With practice eventually the shooter can change the dominace at will and even shoot with both eyes open and neither one covered...

**Frank Ettin** · April 15, 2012, 09:44 AM

We limit our Basic Handgun classes to 12 students, and we usually have between two and four who are cross dominant.

We find dealing with cross dominance with handgun is fairly straight forward. One of our instructors is cross dominant, and he shows students how to just turn the head slightly, lining up the dominant eye with the sights. It works for him. It works for our students. And it works for me (and our other instructors) when shooting with our non-dominant hand.

When teaching wing shooting, we've used the trick of putting tape on one lens of the student's shooting glasses. That can work well, but I don't like to use that device for handgun. Self defense with a handgun tends to be a "come as you are" proposition.

Some people have a weak dominance. Although one eye is dominant, if fatigue sets in the non-dominant eye will start to take over. My wife's like that. She's left handed and left eye dominant, but only weakly so. So when shooting trap or sporting clays she puts a bit of tape on the right lens of her shooting glasses to prevent her right eye from taking over as she tires.

mete · April 16, 2012, 03:04 PM

the AMTU found that it's easier to train the hand than the eye .Therefore with left eye/right hand dominant , shoot left handed.

**Frank Ettin** · April 16, 2012, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mete

the AMTU found that it's easier to train the hand than the eye .Therefore with left eye/right hand dominant , shoot left handed.

That's probably a reasonable plan for rifle or shotgun shooting. With handguns, cross dominance isn't as big a problem and is more easily managed. In any case, with a handgun, if one's interest is self defense, one will want to be able to shoot with either hand.

Stevie-Ray · April 16, 2012, 04:28 PM

Cross-dominant also. Explains why I have always sucked at shotgunning, other than self-defense. I plan to start using the translucent stickers on the dominant eye when I again try my hand at shotgunning games.

Rob Pincus · April 16, 2012, 04:57 PM

There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the issue of eye dominance in regard to pistol shooting. When the pistol is at extension, eye dominance is irrelevant. All the tests to check dominance actually prove this... your brain puts the gun where it needs to be.

For detailed explanation of Sight Alignment and Sight Picture issues related to defense pistol shooting, watch these:

Part I:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_AbAfZtTpk

Part II:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUy46J9IAOM

FireForged · April 17, 2012, 10:06 AM

I am also cross dominant but never notice any issue unless I am shooting out to 20yards or more. If that is the case I close my right eye...

Gbro · April 17, 2012, 09:17 PM

Hey Rob,

I agree with you on the relevance of dominant eye in combat pistol shooting, but it is important that we identify this at a youth level and make changes when these young ones are just learning.
I do believe eye dominance is important in one hand bull's eye and also with the Weaver/Chapman stances.

BGutzman · April 17, 2012, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Eye Dominance is irrelevant to defensive pistol shooting

Im not eye doctor but it seems to me that if your right handed and the left eye is dominant it will have some effect.. Sure the brain may be able to compensate for most of it but thats not the same as not having an effect.

I can make either eye dominant at will and I can tell you the sight does not appear to be in exactly the same place, not at all... respectfully I call a flag on the play..

You can try it yourself with your own pistol.. (please ensure its not loaded and all safety measures are followed).. Aim at something with your left eye closed and then aim with the right eye and then vice versa... Does the picture look the same... no and thats how it is for my eyes and I can do it with both eyes open..

dayman · April 18, 2012, 06:42 AM

I think what was meant by "irrelevant" was that if you're cross dominant all you really have to do is tilt your head slightly to pick up your sights with the dominant eye while using your dominant hand. Obviously you don't want to line the sights up with one eye and then use the other.
For all practical purposes - or at least the vast majority - it works. Training to be able to use both eyes might still be a useful exercise, but it's no more useful for cross dominant shooters than shooters in general.

Rob Pincus · April 18, 2012, 07:35 AM

Gutzman,

The point is that you won't be playing those "close one eye, then the other" if a fight... you'll be focused on the threat and your brain makes sure that the gun is in front of the appropriate eye. If you need your sights, you SHOULD be closing an eye... it should be your non-dominant... but, again, this happens intuitively. It would be better if eye dominance were never brought up in conversations about defensive pistol shooting.

Did you watch the linked videos? They contain a very thorough explanation or related issues.

-Rob

BGutzman · April 18, 2012, 07:24 PM

I havent watched it but I will.. Im always willing to learn a new trick or new info..

Jeff22 · April 23, 2012, 06:08 PM

Shooting handguns from the Isoceles Stance, I'm not sure if head position makes a lot of difference. I shoot from the Chapman stance (modified Weaver) and just slightly shift my head to the right to line the left eye up with the sights. Doesn't affect binocular sight or peripheral vision or any of that. It's not a big deal for most shooters.

I've instructed firearms at the local regional police academy on and off for 23 years and in the ANG as a Combat Arms Training Specialist for 10 years and as an LEO since 1982; in my observation in all that time, I believe that about 20% of the population has a cross dominant master eye.

When a shooting long gun, I fire from the right shoulder, close my left eye, and shoot with the right eye. Some people (10%?) can't independently close one eye or the other and leave the other eye open (often can't close the master eye) and I'm not sure what the solution is for those folks when they're shooting a long gun. Some people have a greater natural tendency toward bilateralism/ambidexterity than others, and some can fire off the weak shoulder with some ability, but most people can't do that.

I know a minority of instructors try to take a cross-dominant shooter (right handed -- left master eye, for example) and try to teach them to shoot left handed, but I see absolutely no reason to do that UNLESS their primary weapon is a long gun and they can't close their eyes independently.

I can't use occluded eye gunsights with my particular set of vision characteristics, and in my experience most cross-dominant shooters can't either, but I do know a few cross-dominant operators who can without significant difficulty. So, it's a little hard to come to a rule that's "carved in stone", particularly since a person's eye sight may significantly change over the course of their lifetime/shooting career.

With a handgun, I think it's a non-issue. Turn your head a couple inches and line the master eye up with the sights and press on.

mehavey · April 25, 2012, 08:33 AM

Pistol shooting: Cross Dominance is irrevelent. Ten years on the Air Force pistol team confirmed that.
Right handed/Left eyed is no problem

Rifle/Shotgun: Ditto. Right Handed/Right-Eyed (even when Left dominant) It does generally mean your
final aiming is not w/ both eyes open. No big deal -- even low-gun skeet starts w/ both open to
pick up the bird then automatically shutting the left eye as the sight ramp closes on target.

Holographic sights -- whole different story.

armadio · May 9, 2012, 10:35 AM

hello! first of all, i am 28 old and i just started shooting with handguns. i spent most of my training with a .22 ruger. i shoot from a 25 distance.

well my dominant hand is the right hand and my dominant eye is my left eye.

i started with the iso-stance, left eye open, right finger on the trigger. i really don`t feel comfortable with this stance, but i can place shoots in the middle. i`ve switched to the weaver- stance, because i feel better with it. my right finger is on the trigger and i have my right eye open.
my groupings are good that way, but the shots were placed on the left side of the paper- target. so if i`m aiming a bit to the right, all shots will go in the middle.

i can`t shoot lefty or with both eyes open and i don`t think, that i could get used to it!

now the question! should i keep the weaver stance and shoot with the weaker eye, or should i try to get used to the iso- stance? i mean i just got into shooting and i think i could get used to any stance if i practice enough, or not?

sorry for my grammar, greetings from germany!

April 14, 2012, 09:06 PM	#1
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	Cross domanince upon assessing the student in firearms safety class I was overwhelmed with the number of cross dominant students. There are 21 students with one being a lefty. I then planned to re-asses later during marksmanship night. We have a Dasiy Laser trainer and I let my teaching partner take that while I covered another topic with half the class and then asked him how it went as he wasn't present the first night. He was astonished also, Seven student, 1/3rd of this class is cross dominant! And sadly, when introducing left hand to one student, his dad wouldn't allow this student to shoot left hand. We have some work ahead of us on this one! __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

April 15, 2012, 08:38 AM	#4
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	Some people can train enough to the point that they can choose the dominant eye.... We use shooting glasses with a piece of paper taped over the opposite eye, so if they are shooting right handed the right eye is the only eye with clear sight... With practice eventually the shooter can change the dominace at will and even shoot with both eyes open and neither one covered... __________________ Molon Labe

April 15, 2012, 09:44 AM	#5
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	We limit our Basic Handgun classes to 12 students, and we usually have between two and four who are cross dominant. We find dealing with cross dominance with handgun is fairly straight forward. One of our instructors is cross dominant, and he shows students how to just turn the head slightly, lining up the dominant eye with the sights. It works for him. It works for our students. And it works for me (and our other instructors) when shooting with our non-dominant hand. When teaching wing shooting, we've used the trick of putting tape on one lens of the student's shooting glasses. That can work well, but I don't like to use that device for handgun. Self defense with a handgun tends to be a "come as you are" proposition. Some people have a weak dominance. Although one eye is dominant, if fatigue sets in the non-dominant eye will start to take over. My wife's like that. She's left handed and left eye dominant, but only weakly so. So when shooting trap or sporting clays she puts a bit of tape on the right lens of her shooting glasses to prevent her right eye from taking over as she tires. __________________ "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

April 16, 2012, 03:04 PM	#6
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	the AMTU found that it's easier to train the hand than the eye .Therefore with left eye/right hand dominant , shoot left handed. __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

April 16, 2012, 04:28 PM	#8
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	Cross-dominant also. Explains why I have always sucked at shotgunning, other than self-defense. I plan to start using the translucent stickers on the dominant eye when I again try my hand at shotgunning games. __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

April 15, 2012, 07:55 AM	#3
Jamas Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 154	It is not an uncommon thing from what I've seen. I am actually left eye and left hand dominate, but I do everything right handed. I had no idea I was all mixed up until a few years ago. I pretty much do everything right handed still... with a handgun I aim with my dominate eye with both eyes open, but shoulder fired weapons I do righty shutting my left eye.

April 16, 2012, 04:57 PM	#9
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Eye Dominance is irrelevant to defensive pistol shooting There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the issue of eye dominance in regard to pistol shooting. When the pistol is at extension, eye dominance is irrelevant. All the tests to check dominance actually prove this... your brain puts the gun where it needs to be. For detailed explanation of Sight Alignment and Sight Picture issues related to defense pistol shooting, watch these: Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_AbAfZtTpk Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUy46J9IAOM __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

April 17, 2012, 10:06 AM	#10
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	I am also cross dominant but never notice any issue unless I am shooting out to 20yards or more. If that is the case I close my right eye... __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

April 17, 2012, 09:17 PM	#11
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	Hey Rob, I agree with you on the relevance of dominant eye in combat pistol shooting, but it is important that we identify this at a youth level and make changes when these young ones are just learning. I do believe eye dominance is important in one hand bull's eye and also with the Weaver/Chapman stances. __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

April 18, 2012, 06:42 AM	#13
dayman Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Location: The Woods Posts: 1,197	I think what was meant by "irrelevant" was that if you're cross dominant all you really have to do is tilt your head slightly to pick up your sights with the dominant eye while using your dominant hand. Obviously you don't want to line the sights up with one eye and then use the other. For all practical purposes - or at least the vast majority - it works. Training to be able to use both eyes might still be a useful exercise, but it's no more useful for cross dominant shooters than shooters in general.

April 18, 2012, 07:35 AM	#14
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Gutzman, The point is that you won't be playing those "close one eye, then the other" if a fight... you'll be focused on the threat and your brain makes sure that the gun is in front of the appropriate eye. If you need your sights, you SHOULD be closing an eye... it should be your non-dominant... but, again, this happens intuitively. It would be better if eye dominance were never brought up in conversations about defensive pistol shooting. Did you watch the linked videos? They contain a very thorough explanation or related issues. -Rob __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

April 18, 2012, 07:24 PM	#15
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	I havent watched it but I will.. Im always willing to learn a new trick or new info.. __________________ Molon Labe

April 23, 2012, 06:08 PM	#16
Jeff22 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2004 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 715	cross dominant master eye? Shooting handguns from the Isoceles Stance, I'm not sure if head position makes a lot of difference. I shoot from the Chapman stance (modified Weaver) and just slightly shift my head to the right to line the left eye up with the sights. Doesn't affect binocular sight or peripheral vision or any of that. It's not a big deal for most shooters. I've instructed firearms at the local regional police academy on and off for 23 years and in the ANG as a Combat Arms Training Specialist for 10 years and as an LEO since 1982; in my observation in all that time, I believe that about 20% of the population has a cross dominant master eye. When a shooting long gun, I fire from the right shoulder, close my left eye, and shoot with the right eye. Some people (10%?) can't independently close one eye or the other and leave the other eye open (often can't close the master eye) and I'm not sure what the solution is for those folks when they're shooting a long gun. Some people have a greater natural tendency toward bilateralism/ambidexterity than others, and some can fire off the weak shoulder with some ability, but most people can't do that. I know a minority of instructors try to take a cross-dominant shooter (right handed -- left master eye, for example) and try to teach them to shoot left handed, but I see absolutely no reason to do that UNLESS their primary weapon is a long gun and they can't close their eyes independently. I can't use occluded eye gunsights with my particular set of vision characteristics, and in my experience most cross-dominant shooters can't either, but I do know a few cross-dominant operators who can without significant difficulty. So, it's a little hard to come to a rule that's "carved in stone", particularly since a person's eye sight may significantly change over the course of their lifetime/shooting career. With a handgun, I think it's a non-issue. Turn your head a couple inches and line the master eye up with the sights and press on. __________________ You can only learn from experience if you pay attention!

April 25, 2012, 08:33 AM	#17
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	Pistol shooting: Cross Dominance is irrevelent. Ten years on the Air Force pistol team confirmed that. Right handed/Left eyed is no problem Rifle/Shotgun: Ditto. Right Handed/Right-Eyed (even when Left dominant) It does generally mean your final aiming is not w/ both eyes open. No big deal -- even low-gun skeet starts w/ both open to pick up the bird then automatically shutting the left eye as the sight ramp closes on target. Holographic sights -- whole different story.

May 9, 2012, 10:35 AM	#18
armadio Junior Member Join Date: May 9, 2012 Location: Bremen, Germany Posts: 3	hello! first of all, i am 28 old and i just started shooting with handguns. i spent most of my training with a .22 ruger. i shoot from a 25 distance. well my dominant hand is the right hand and my dominant eye is my left eye. i started with the iso-stance, left eye open, right finger on the trigger. i really don`t feel comfortable with this stance, but i can place shoots in the middle. i`ve switched to the weaver- stance, because i feel better with it. my right finger is on the trigger and i have my right eye open. my groupings are good that way, but the shots were placed on the left side of the paper- target. so if i`m aiming a bit to the right, all shots will go in the middle. i can`t shoot lefty or with both eyes open and i don`t think, that i could get used to it! now the question! should i keep the weaver stance and shoot with the weaker eye, or should i try to get used to the iso- stance? i mean i just got into shooting and i think i could get used to any stance if i practice enough, or not? sorry for my grammar, greetings from germany!