Novice question on building up to max charge

[mept]

What kind of signs are you looking for when progressing from minimum pressure loads to max loads? Do you just keep going up to the spec. max while testing for the inherent level of accuracy with each test batch? I am looking for what myself and 2 friends will come up with when loading bulk ammo for punching paper. We all own quality .40 cal pistols, so we thought would be the caliber to begin learning with. Thanks for any help, all the posts I have read have been a hugh source of information. I just kept going back in time and found great recommendations, opiniions, resources. I have a headache now, I have learned to much for one day. I must rest.

[Johnny Guest]

- - - a high pressure cartridge, by it's very design. It is unlike somne of the older designs, which can stand a certain amount of "hot rodding." I understand that your question deals with building up to "nax loads," by which I presume you mean published maximums.

Read again through the loading manuals - - -most of them deal with the tell-tale signs for which to watch.

Pistol cartridges are not entirely like rifle rounds- - -With the rifle loads, one way is to chronograph carefully, and to stop when you stop getting noticible increases in velovity with increases in powder weight. In pistol loadings, you'll get into trouble before this happens, most of the time.

As you approach the higher end of loads listed, watch for primer flattening and case head deformation. A good dial caliper is necessary for the latter procedure. The "feel" of the recoil can be a tipoff, as well.

Back to chronographing - - -Chronograph a series of factory loads. There is usually no reason to try to exceed their velocity. Once you know what you're trying to duplicate, you have an idea what you can accomplish with your hand loads. Be aware that some different bullets have different amounts of bearing surface, and, just because you safely load to, say, 1050 fps with one bullet, MAY NOT NECESSSARILY mean you can obtain the same from a different bullet. Any change in a component means more experimentation, once you've reached top-end loads. Of course, this is not nearly so critical if you are switching bullets in the middle ground of loads: If you've found a nice, 900 fps practice load for one 180 gr. bullet, you can probably switch without trouble.

You don't say what brand of "quality .40 cal pistols" you and your associates shoot. I'm sure you're aware that some folks believe that use of lead bullet handloads in Glock .40s is tantamount to sacrificing your pistol and various body parts.

Best of luck in your efforts - - -Keep us updated.

Johnny

[WESHOOT2]

Any case (prefer R-P), CCI500 primer, Rainier 180g TCJ-FP, 6.0g Alliant Power Pistol, OAL 1.130"+/-.005", finish using LEE Carbide Factory Crimp die.

Approx. 910fps, accurate from most guns, WELL-TESTED and TIME-PROVEN.

You're welcome.

[C.R.Sam]

No reason to approach max load for target work unless a particular gun is most accurate at that level. In that case it is a problem with the gun and not the load.

Informed use of chronograph will tell you when you are reaching the point of diminishing returns in the particular gun being tested. Then you back it down a bit.

WS2 gave you a good target load, don't exceed it unless you really do know what you are doing.

Remember, if tryin to match factory velocities in your gun, your gun is different and your powder is different...........it may take much higher than SAAMI pressures to get the velocity.

The info above comin from Johnny and WS2 is coming from pros.

Sam, gonna wear my eyes out, not blow em out.

[mept]

The handguns which will be using what we make are a USP compact, Walther P99, and a Steyr M40. I'm familiar with the Glock .40 problems and I understand the Steyr has a fully supported chamber which should make things safer. If I am making target loads and do not have a chronograph?? am I safe to go with published or recommended target loads verbatim from the beginning? Or is their an alternate method for building up to an accurate basic target load? I was not trying to make my first post sound like I am interested in maxing out pressures or velocity in the round, but would like to work toward making an accurate round possibly for all three guns. They are all similar 3.5 - 4 inch barreled semiauto's. thanks

[Johnny Guest]

- - - is not too difficult. Get a selection of loading manuals. At least ONE well rounded one, like Speer or Lyman. The powder company manuals tend toward their own products. Also, get the free panphlets put out by the powder companies, like Hodgdon, Alliant and Winchester. Compare their loads. They will seldom if ever be exactly the same, but should be generally in like with each other. Doubtful that ANY of them will publish anything that is downright dangerous to shooter or the pistol. The higher-end loads WILL cause accelerated wear on the guns.

You have the right idea about starting fairly low. See above and pay attention to ALL the signs. I used to think that, as long as the primers weren't cratered and flowing, I was okay. It's a wonder I never had any injuries during my early days with magnum revolvers.

If you attend a public range with chronograph services, or belong to a club with a chrono, you'll find it interesting to check velocities once you have a couple of loads worked up. But it is not absolutely necessary.

The pistols you list are generally well-thought-of as to strength, and you probably have some safety cushion. But, y'all paid good money for 'em, and there's no use in wearing them out or shooting them loose before their time. The diminishing returns effect was mentioned above, Many loaders go to the point of squeezing out every last foot per second velocity, sending pressures through the roof to have a load that is 40 fps faster than a more sane load.

Best of luck - --
Johnny

[WESHOOT2]

First, compare recoil 'feel' to known factory ammo. Does it 'kick' harder? Way harder?

Case appearance is much harder to judge, but does your fired case have any obvious bulges or rings? Split anywhere in any fashion? Bent rim?
Primer too. Blackened strike mark? Blackened around edge? Flattened out to the edges of the pocket? Distorted-looking? Pierced?

Does the case eject near you, or launch itself to Pittsburgh?

Suggest spending some quality time at nearest USPSA club; you'll no doubt see all kinds of bad ammo LOL.

My posted load is SAFE and ACCURATE. Load as specified (okay, you may skip the LEE die part, but ONLY if you must).

Ps Power Pistol, WAP, Bullseye (but be VERY VERY careful with that one), 3N37, and I'm sure some others all make accurate safe 180g rds. Just follow manuals blah blah blah

[Chad Young]

This is just my $0.02, but I never reload .40 Auto anywhere near max unless I am using new brass and have worked the load up from start loads carefully. This round is innately a high-pressure round and I do not normally find benefits in maxing out the charge for that last few % of velocity, especially when offset by the risk of a case failure.

My standard load for practice and fun is 5.8g of Winchester Super Field under a 180gr FMJ or JHP. I seat the bullet about .025 over minimum, at the very least, to keep pressures down. This load is lighter than factory, but out to 25 yards, has same point of aim and accuracy as factory ammo, but operates at pressures presumably way less than full-tilt factory or handloads. Since I do use once-fired brass and occasional range brass, I take great care to make my .40 Auto loads safer by virtue of being significantly lighter than the maximum.

Good luck and happy reloading!

[HankB]

Just as a caution - pressure in pistol cartridges like the .40 is also a function of seating depth; the deeper the bullet, the higher the pressure.

This can be a problem if the case isn't resized enough to grip the bullet tightly. On feeding, it's possible for a bullet to be driven deeper into the case, causing abnormally high pressure for that round.

If you're already flirting with max pressure, this could be a problem.

[yankytrash]

mept - I wish I had your patience and wisdom when I started loading. Would've saved a lot of wasted powder and bullets had I strictly adhered to the "start low, work up" from the git-go. Luckily for me, I haven't seriously damaged anything in my earlier case-packing practices, but I consider myself very lucky.

I don't have a chrono either, but you'll do fine without one. You'll find that if you start with the lowest, or close to lowest, recommended load in the books you use, benchrest accuracy will steadily increase, then drop off sharply when working up loads.

With a few types of rounds, for me it has been the 223rem, you might find that the accuracy is actually two stages - from the lowest recommended loads accuracy went up, then down, then back up again even better than before, until it dropped off sharply again.

When working from the lowest load in some pistol cartridges, I would recommend starting off a little higher than the lowest recommended loads listed in your books. Errors made by the powder dispenser can cause detonation - a very serious condition in a pistol cartridge where the lack of powder will cause ALL the powder to try to ignite at once, instead of the intended slow burn.

In an extreme hypothetical example, picture a 45ACP loaded with 20 grains of Unique. That's about the same result you'll get if you load it with only 3 grains of the same. I'm not looking in my book right now, so don't quote me on those hypothetical examples, but you get the idea.

Good luck with it. Keep these other guys' tips in mind for what to look for once you are starting to push the maximum load. Those tips are not only good for watching for max loads, but also good to watch out for if you're using anything other than once-fired brass. Remember - brass WILL eventually wear out.

My experience has been - if you've attained the max load, something's wrong in your technique or your gun.

[HankB]

yankytrash - some years ago, the NRA technical center, in co-operation with one of the major powder manufacturers (Hercules?) tried in the lab to generate high pressures in the .38 special with very light charges of Bullseye, which were alleged to blow up guns.

They couldn't.

They examined some guns that had supposedly been blown up with 2.7 grains of Bullseye, and microscopic analysis of the fractures showed evidence of high pressure, but not detonation. The conclusion - after lots of work in the lab - was that the dangerously high pressures were due to a combination of multiple charges and deeply seated bullets, NOT light loads of pistol powder. IIRC, the prime suspect in the blow-ups was an inexperienced operator using an early progressive reloading machine.

So 3 grains of Unique in a .45 is not going to behave like 20 grains.

Now, if you're talking about bottleneck RIFLE cases, there's plenty of evidence - duplicated in the lab - that light charges of rifle powders can generate dangerous pressure spikes. But small charges of pistol powder just don't seem to be capable of generating abnormally high pressures in straight wall pistol cases.

[Steve Smith]

Searching for a "max load" (whatever that is) is not necessary. If your current caliber will not accomplish what you want it to do, go to a larger caliber. That's not to say that experimentation isn't a handloader's bread and butter, but if all you're doing is looking for the max, then you're headed for trouble.

[yankytrash]

HankB - I totally agree with the findings of fast-burning pistol powders rarely being able to cause 'blow-ups', but be careful in your wisdom.

There are many slower burning powders out there that are well suited for pistol cartridges also. The likelyhood of high-pressure conditions in pistol cartridges loaded with a smaller amount of slow-burning powder is highly likely.

Detonation of pistol powders is easy, because by their very nature they were made to burn that way. Other large flake or large ball powders are not designed to burn that way - thus, the detonations in that case can be potentially catastrophic.

[WESHOOT2]

Have that report. Hercules engineers determined NOT ENOUGH ENERGY in 3.0g (2.7g, too) to blow guns.
No matter how hard they tried LOL.

I still 'think' (willing to listen) 2.7g blow-ups were caused by 38 cases reloaded 10,000 times..........you know, Bullseye shooters.

CASE NECK TENSION! GOTTA HAVE SOME!

[ernest2]

!:^)
The crotchetty old graybeard painfully gets up from his rocking chair, and with painfull Tim Conway steps approches the keyboard and types:


!:^)
MY EARS ARE RINGING !
And not from forgetting to wear my ear plugs either!

Whomsoeverth speaketh poorly
of my favorite 38 special , 2.7 gr bullseye extra lite
target load behind a 105 gr hard cast bullet which I have shot
thousands of rounds of since 1984 ?

I becheach thee then, listen forth!

I never experienced any detonation or high pressure spikes
with the thousands of these loads that I have constantly fired through out the years and in fact I am still shooting the same
brass cases that I started out with in 1984, augmented by
another 1000 or so range brass I aquired off the ground
during my many trips to the range.

Therefore, I will add this about that,

The 2.7 gr bullseye shoots good
spring, summer and fall , however in winter, below 20 degrees
the bullet heads seem to hit the ground about 26 feet in front
of the gun, being unable to reach the target and I believe this is caused by the cold temp making the powder burn slower and not generating the same pressure that it does in the summer time.

The 2.7 gr load is good for 25 yards but not good for 50 yards
due to too much bullet drop sooo.... to counteract both the winter
26 foot problem and the 50 yrds problem, I also load 3.4 grains
bullseye for my winter or 50 yard extra lite target loads.

A CAUTION HERE ! If you use 110 gr or 125 gr semi jacketed
hollow points, [actually, any grain semi jacted hollow point]
you can not use these extra lite target loads
because a semi - jacketed bullet head must be moving over
725 feet /sec to prevent the copper jacket from lodging in the lands and grooves of the barrel while only the lead portion of the bullet head exits the barrel.
This is not a consideration for full copper jacketed bullet heads
but only for semi jackets.
AT 725 FT/SEC OR BETTER, THIS CAN NOT HAPPEN , but could happen below 725 ft/ sec depending on bullet head copper jacket crimp construction.

Therefore, use 3.4gr bullseye, approx 775 ft/sec or
3.6 gr. bullseye= appx. 820 f/s for extra lite target loads with semi jacketed bullet heads.

[Pigshooter]

This probably won't do you any good for the lower pressures of the 40 S&W, but I noticed that full house loads in the 454 left the primer pockets enlarged.

You can readily tell this by seating a couple of unfired cases of the same headstamp and then trying some fired cases. If the pocket is enlarged, you will feel a definite lack of seating resistance.

Lower pressure loads in the 454 don't seem to do that. But we're still talking higher than 40 max pressures, even higher than 10mm max pressures. They do grow in length however, so they are still being worked pretty hard.

One thing I am a firm believer in is using more cartridge than you need, and then loading them below max for extended case life.

IMO, if you want a full house 40 S&W load, move up to a 10mm. Same for a 38spl, move up to 357 mag. etc etc. This only becomes a problem if you want a particular model in a cartridge they don't chamber. Which leads to the second solution, increase the size of your collection

[ernest2]

From a differnt kind of guy, comes a different appoach to accuracy.

Accuracy is caused firstly
by the inherent design of your firearm so be carefull and do the research in the selection of your firearm.

( Basically, if you didnt buy a SIG SUAER you didn't buy as accurate of a pistol as you could have.[That is just my opinion but it is also shared by millions of other Sig owners.])

Secondly , ACCURACY is caused by the allignment of the front sight with the rear sight with the target AND anything that disturbs that allignment reduces accuracy.

RECOIL DISTURBS SIGHT ALLIGNMENT. Accordingly, handloading
a load that recoils less will increase accuracy.
Also, magna porting or a tripple chamber compensator lessens
the recoil and the disturbing of the sight picture thus increasing accuracy.

JACKY--ONE--MORE--THING!

Extra lite target loads.

First , find the lightest grain bullet head available for your caliber
pistol that is properly designed to go up the feed ramp. Look at your feed ramp and look for a bullet head profile that matches in the lightest grain bullet head. CALL THE BULLET HEAD MANFACTURER AND ASK IF THAT BULLET HEAD FEEDS WELL.
[s'cuse the capitals.]

Second , look at the starting load and the max load and find the mid point. Usually,there is a 1 grain or 1.6 gr. difference or spread
between start load and max load.

Some manuals just say to calulate 10% down from max load to find start load, so figure 5% down from max as your starting point and WORK DOWN to the lightest load that your pistol will
consistantly cycle at.

You will eventually find a load that your pistol will not cycle at ,
it will feed and fire but will not eject or cock the hammer. At this point
increase your non cycling load by .2 grains [2/10ths] of a grain
and you have achieved the lightest and therefore the most accurate load that your PARTICULAR PISTOL is capable of cycling
at.

This load may not opperate your friends pistols because it is fine tuned to your particular test gun.

You will notice vastly reduced recoil and a smooth and easy shooting pistol that you can fire all day long with little or no fatigue.

It is easier on you , easier on your gun and easier on your brass.

You can concentrate on your aim on the target instead of having to subconciously worry about the felt recoil from every shot.

You will notice an improvement in accuracy within the distance limitations of the reduced powder charge because a reduced powder charge is good for 25 yards but you may need to add
half a grain of powder for 50 yards to counter act bullet drop.

bullseye or red dot powders or other brands of fast burning pistol powders should be used for reduced powder loads as a slow burning powder smokes too much and dirties up your gun quickly
and you use more powder per shoot of a slow burning powder.

In conclusion, I am speaking here of fine tuning a reduced powder charge to your particular test gun and the particular distance at which you wish to place your targets.

JACKY--ONE -- MORE --- THING!!!!

For years now, brownells sells weaker recoil springs to fine tune
the particular gun to extreemly light lite target loads, but I do not recommend changing a recoil spring to a weak spring because if you forget the weak spring is in the gun and start firing standard factory loads, you will break the frame of the pistol because of too weak of a recoil spring.

It is better to weaken the hammer spring instead. Leave the full strength recoil spring in the gun and install a light hammer spring
instead of the standard 25 pound hammer spring use a 12 or 10 pound lite hammer spring.

This yields a lighter and smoother trigger pull, a lighter hammer drop that does not jar the gun so much when the hammer drops
and allows you to shoot both full power factory loads and reduced power lite target loads interchangably. A factory original recoil spring is strong enough to prevent damage to the frame and the light hammer spring allows firing of both extra lite target
and full factory loads.

The spring system of the recoil opperated semi auto pistol
consists of two springs , the recoil spring and the hammer spring.

The recoil spring must slow the rearward movement of the slide enough to prevent the slide from hitting the take down pin so
hard as to break the frame where the take down pin goes through the frame on both sides of the frame but yet allow enough power in the rearward movement of the slide to eject
the spent round and then cock the hammer at the most rearward movement of the slide. At the most rearward movement of the slide where the hammer needs to be cocked, there is approx
30 pounds of energy not yet absorbed by the recoil spring left
to cock the 25 pound hammer spring.

Reducing the hammer spring to 12 pounds leaves only 13 pounds
not balanced which is not enough to make the slide hit the take down lever pin hard enough to cause any damage , at least none I can see in my 45 acp AMT Longslide Hardballer after 14 years
of shooting it, some of that time actually shooting factory loads
when I ran out of my lite target hand loads.

In Conclusion, this works for me and Im extreemly happy with it
and I usually make nice two inch groups on the 10 ring at 25 yards so what more could you ask for...... except a Sig Sauer P220Am
45 acp single and double action which is capable of shooting
7/8 inch groups at 25 yards even if I no longer am.
My next Chrismas present to me, next year!

JACKY--ONE --MORE --THING!!

"Better accuracy guns, with 4 power pistol scopes, compensate for tired old shooter's failing eyesight."

#jacky,one more thing! is a running gag reference, see jacky chan adventures cartoons at 4 pm. mon>fri or better yet, don't.