Golden Saber 38 vs. 357

Schatz · December 22, 2001, 11:38 PM

Does anyone know if the 125g GS for 357 are different from the
same specification for 38 special. I tried them ( the 357s) in a 38 today loaded with 4.4 grains of bullseye and shot through two 4inch yellow pages with no expansion. Maybe the GS for 38 special are made to expand at lower velocities?

C.R.Sam · December 22, 2001, 11:53 PM

If the paper was dry, no expansion expected. Hollow points require wet material, like flesh, to hydraulic the bullet into the expanded form.

Soaked phonebooks will give a better representation.

Sam

Schatz · December 23, 2001, 12:04 AM

Thanks Sam. I live in Albuquerque, NM where the humidity is basically non-existent. I'll give it another try when I locate
some more phone books. Any other targets come to mind
to test for expansion where I have a reasonable chance of finding
the bullet?

**Mike Irwin** · December 23, 2001, 12:23 AM

Supposedly the Golden Sabres ARE velocity calibrated, and you may not get expansion for the ones labeled for .357 Mag. at .38 Spl. velocities.

Sam is correct, though. You're going to get zippy expansion shooting into dry stuff.

Soak the phone books for at least 10 hours before hand, and shoot them within a couple of minutes after taking them out of the water.

I used to take phone books to the range in 5 gallon buckets full of water. Christ were they heavy.

**Mike Irwin** · December 23, 2001, 12:26 AM

Sent too soon, sorry, and I'm on an internet connection that is just WAY too slow for editing the message. It sucks when your parents live in the sticks.

Anyway, 1 gallon milk jugs full of water make a good thing to shoot.

Stacks of soaked newspaper.

A side of beef, followed by a BBQ.

Or build a Fackler box, which is essentially a trough that holds ziplock baggies that you fill with water and place in a row. That can actually give you a pretty good idea as to how far you bullet is penetrating simply by measuring where it stopped in the trough.

zeke · December 23, 2001, 08:18 AM

Schatz-a while ago bought some 125 GS's for 38 special and .357 mag. The 38 specials had deeper cuts (scallops ?)in the bullets and appeared to be manufactured to expand at lower velocities.

Bought some factory loaded 125 gn .357 and 38 plus prounds this year, and it appears the bullets have been redesigned to expand less easily, although the 38's are still designed to expand easier than the .357.

For quick and easy comparison of expansion capabilities, have a hole dug into the berm of shooting range filled with moist fine packed loam (sandy type soil).

labgrade · December 23, 2001, 08:51 AM

They are velocity dependent from all accounts & talking to Remington.

When loading 125 GS .357 mag for a coupla S&W 2.5" bbl 66, I decided to use the .38 bullets due to the decreased velocities from the shorter tube.

1redneck · December 23, 2001, 12:06 PM

Mike Irwin that fackler box idea intriques me, any chance you have built one or can give me a baisic idea of its construction?Are they reusable or a one time thing. I have shot milk jugs full of water before but am trying to figure out how to recover the bullet to see how it preforms.

good shootin

Schatz · December 23, 2001, 12:16 PM

I wish to thank all of you who responded. It's nice having access
to a group of shooters who know what they're doing.

**Mike Irwin** · December 23, 2001, 05:14 PM

Redneck,

Basically it's a U-shaped trough, maybe 3 or 4 feet long for testing handgun bullets, maybe a bit longer for testing rifle bullets.

Doesn't have to be elaborate, just sturdy.

I've not built one, but the ones that I have seen have been made out of 3/4 or 1" plywood.

Essentially you make it big enough to hold 3/4 full, or fuller, baggies of water, and you shoot into the bags.

You have to line up your shots pretty carefully so that you hit the water bag and don't veer off into the side or bottom of the box.

These have been mentioned in a number of magazines over the years, and if I'm not mistaken, the latest copy of SWAT magazine may have some information on building/using a Fackler box.

C.R.Sam · December 23, 2001, 09:26 PM

No.....the baggies with holes in em are not generally reuseable unless you have a ZipLock patch kit and more time than normal.

Sam....

WESHOOT2 · December 24, 2001, 09:22 AM

I took it; I shoot my bullets into dirt.

Sumbitch was right! Looks same as bullets recovered from meat!

Stoopid ammo tricks.................do what you want, as long as you TOTALLY UNDERSTAND that your results may vary.

C.R.Sam · December 24, 2001, 11:05 AM

Damp dirt, wet sand...........both pretty good and reasonably inexpensive.

Sam

Johnny Guest · December 25, 2001, 12:59 AM

- - - by Robert M. Smith in current (FEB 2002) issue of S.W.A.T. magazine, page 70 ff.

Pretty detailled and interesting. As pointed out above, it is possible to build one out of plywood, but it should be well braced in odrer to avoid distortion during use. Smacking that much water with that much energy generated a lot of hydraulic pressure. Mr. Smith built his out of 12-gauge steel, to his oreder. He mentioned he paid some $150 just to have the box built to his specs. Good news is that there isn't a lot else to it--end seal, reinforcements, markings and paint.

While S.W.A.T. magazine is not exactly common on the grocery store racks, it is easy to find. Look at the very top of this screen and see the link, "Subscribe to ]S.W.A.T. magazine." And there's a TFL forum by the magazine name. Coincidentally, the new publisher of the magazine is our own Rich Lucibella.

Best regards,
Johnny

Dogjaw · December 28, 2001, 06:05 AM

I've seen plenty of these, all made out of wood. The top is open, so there isn't a build up of pressure. I can tell you outright, that if someone paid $150 to have a $5 piece of sheet metal formed into a U shape on a sheet metal break, he was robbed.

WESHOOT2 · December 28, 2001, 07:08 AM

It's how I do my landscaping around the house/shop (although wife had me stop shooting down trees).

December 22, 2001, 11:38 PM	#1
Schatz Junior Member Join Date: March 22, 2001 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 9	Golden Saber 38 vs. 357 Does anyone know if the 125g GS for 357 are different from the same specification for 38 special. I tried them ( the 357s) in a 38 today loaded with 4.4 grains of bullseye and shot through two 4inch yellow pages with no expansion. Maybe the GS for 38 special are made to expand at lower velocities?

December 23, 2001, 12:23 AM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	Supposedly the Golden Sabres ARE velocity calibrated, and you may not get expansion for the ones labeled for .357 Mag. at .38 Spl. velocities. Sam is correct, though. You're going to get zippy expansion shooting into dry stuff. Soak the phone books for at least 10 hours before hand, and shoot them within a couple of minutes after taking them out of the water. I used to take phone books to the range in 5 gallon buckets full of water. Christ were they heavy. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 23, 2001, 12:26 AM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	Sent too soon, sorry, and I'm on an internet connection that is just WAY too slow for editing the message. It sucks when your parents live in the sticks. Anyway, 1 gallon milk jugs full of water make a good thing to shoot. Stacks of soaked newspaper. A side of beef, followed by a BBQ. Or build a Fackler box, which is essentially a trough that holds ziplock baggies that you fill with water and place in a row. That can actually give you a pretty good idea as to how far you bullet is penetrating simply by measuring where it stopped in the trough. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 23, 2001, 12:06 PM	#8
1redneck Member Join Date: July 17, 2001 Location: Boise ID Posts: 43	Mike Irwin/Fackler Box Mike Irwin that fackler box idea intriques me, any chance you have built one or can give me a baisic idea of its construction?Are they reusable or a one time thing. I have shot milk jugs full of water before but am trying to figure out how to recover the bullet to see how it preforms. good shootin

December 23, 2001, 05:14 PM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	Redneck, Basically it's a U-shaped trough, maybe 3 or 4 feet long for testing handgun bullets, maybe a bit longer for testing rifle bullets. Doesn't have to be elaborate, just sturdy. I've not built one, but the ones that I have seen have been made out of 3/4 or 1" plywood. Essentially you make it big enough to hold 3/4 full, or fuller, baggies of water, and you shoot into the bags. You have to line up your shots pretty carefully so that you hit the water bag and don't veer off into the side or bottom of the box. These have been mentioned in a number of magazines over the years, and if I'm not mistaken, the latest copy of SWAT magazine may have some information on building/using a Fackler box. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 22, 2001, 11:53 PM	#2
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	If the paper was dry, no expansion expected. Hollow points require wet material, like flesh, to hydraulic the bullet into the expanded form. Soaked phonebooks will give a better representation. Sam

December 23, 2001, 12:04 AM	#3
Schatz Junior Member Join Date: March 22, 2001 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 9	Thanks Sam. I live in Albuquerque, NM where the humidity is basically non-existent. I'll give it another try when I locate some more phone books. Any other targets come to mind to test for expansion where I have a reasonable chance of finding the bullet?

December 23, 2001, 08:18 AM	#6
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	Schatz-a while ago bought some 125 GS's for 38 special and .357 mag. The 38 specials had deeper cuts (scallops ?)in the bullets and appeared to be manufactured to expand at lower velocities. Bought some factory loaded 125 gn .357 and 38 plus prounds this year, and it appears the bullets have been redesigned to expand less easily, although the 38's are still designed to expand easier than the .357. For quick and easy comparison of expansion capabilities, have a hole dug into the berm of shooting range filled with moist fine packed loam (sandy type soil).

December 23, 2001, 08:51 AM	#7
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	They are velocity dependent from all accounts & talking to Remington. When loading 125 GS .357 mag for a coupla S&W 2.5" bbl 66, I decided to use the .38 bullets due to the decreased velocities from the shorter tube.

December 23, 2001, 12:16 PM	#9
Schatz Junior Member Join Date: March 22, 2001 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 9	I wish to thank all of you who responded. It's nice having access to a group of shooters who know what they're doing.

December 23, 2001, 09:26 PM	#11
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	No.....the baggies with holes in em are not generally reuseable unless you have a ZipLock patch kit and more time than normal. Sam....

December 24, 2001, 09:22 AM	#12
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	OLD-TIME PROFESSIONAL ADVICE I took it; I shoot my bullets into dirt. Sumbitch was right! Looks same as bullets recovered from meat! Stoopid ammo tricks.................do what you want, as long as you TOTALLY UNDERSTAND that your results may vary. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 24, 2001, 11:05 AM	#13
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Damp dirt, wet sand...........both pretty good and reasonably inexpensive. Sam

December 25, 2001, 12:59 AM	#14
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Fackler Box article - - - - - - by Robert M. Smith in current (FEB 2002) issue of *S.W.A.T.* magazine, page 70 ff. Pretty detailled and interesting. As pointed out above, it is possible to build one out of plywood, but it should be well braced in odrer to avoid distortion during use. Smacking that much water with that much energy generated a lot of hydraulic pressure. Mr. Smith built his out of 12-gauge steel, to his oreder. He mentioned he paid some $150 just to have the box built to his specs. Good news is that there isn't a lot else to it--end seal, reinforcements, markings and paint. While *S.W.A.T.* magazine is not exactly common on the grocery store racks, it is easy to find. Look at the very top of this screen and see the link, "Subscribe to ]S.W.A.T. magazine." And there's a TFL forum by the magazine name. Coincidentally, the new publisher of the magazine is our own Rich Lucibella. Best regards, Johnny

December 28, 2001, 06:05 AM	#15
Dogjaw Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Location: S.W. Michigan Posts: 560	I've seen plenty of these, all made out of wood. The top is open, so there isn't a build up of pressure. I can tell you outright, that if someone paid $150 to have a $5 piece of sheet metal formed into a U shape on a sheet metal break, he was robbed.

December 28, 2001, 07:08 AM	#16
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	(ULTERIOR MOTIVE) It's how I do my landscaping around the house/shop (although wife had me stop shooting down trees). __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"