Opinion of .30 Carbine for deer hunting

[kraigwy]

A .30 carbine energy about equals a .38 spl with a much more miserable selection of suitable hunting bullets. .30 carbines lame performance on humans in the Pacific during WWII is well documented.

Now we're being silly. In the South Pacific the Carbine gave a good account of itself. Most of the SP campaign was in the jungle where range was limited.

My father fought in the SP (Burma Campaign w/41st Inf. Div) and raved about the carbine. Seldom got shots past 100 yards. The short light weight (5 lbs or so) made an excellent jungle carbine. He also carried the Carbine in Korea. He loved it.

But lets set personal opinions aside.

According to the Army (per Hatcher's Notebook), the energy needed to produce a disabling wound is 60 ft lbs. The Carbine round (110 gr @ 2000 fps) develops that at 1000 yards.

In my state, for a pistol round to be legal for hunting it has to develop 500 ft. lbs. at 100 yards. Its gonna take a stretch of imagination to get a 357 to do that. No 38 spl will. However the 30 cal carbine develops 671 ft lbs at 500 yards. At 200 its 458 ft lbs, more then enough for a humane kill on deer size animals.

Using the common 158 gr 38 round @ 850 fps 223 ft lbs. @100 yards
in the 357 the same bullet @ 1350 fps is 465 ft.lbs at @ 100 yards.

The Carbine @ 200 yards delivers almost (458 ft lbs) the energy at 200 yards as the 357 does at 100.

Yet people say a revolver in 357 is ok for deer but a 30 cal. isn't????

Is it a long range round for prairie hunting? NO of course not. Is it enough for hunting from a tree stand at Bow distances? Of course it is.

I run the "Sight in Days" for our Club, where we open the range to anyone (mostly out of state hunters) to check their sights before hunting.

From what I've seen a large number of Hunter(sic) would be much better with a Carbine then their 300 Mag wiz bangs that produces "flinch and hope".

I use my Carbine in CMP Carbine matches, I haven't hunted with it, but after these post I'm going to next year.

[Art Eatman]

It's all about shot placement. Phil Sharpe, in the post-WW II update of his "Complete Guide To Handloading" has two vignettes.

He met a GI with a horrible facial scar. It seems that after the GI shot a German officer with his Carbine, apparently at close range, the officer managed to draw his Luger and return fire.

On a deer hunt with a group of US officers while in Germany, a small buck was jumped and they began shooting. The deer finally succumbed, but with almost sixty wounds before dying. GI ammo and a running deer.

So, care about shot placement, use of proper ammo, and good judgement about circumstance and distance.

[shortwave]

A humane kill involves more then just the speed of a projectile. But how the projectile is made and how it reacts upon penetration.

I'm sure if the piece of piano wire in the example below hit a deer in the boiler room, the wire would have went clear through and the deer would have died as well. But would it have been as humane of death as say a bullet designed with adequate penetration as well as expansion for a quicker kill?

mythbustersresults.com/episode61

A piece of straw can penetrate all the way through a palm tree if propelled by hurricane-force winds.

busted

Propelling a piece of straw at a palm tree at a distance of 50cm at 320mph (the world record for recorded wind speed at ground level), the straw only managed to penetrate the tree a quarter of an inch. Even firing at the tree while it was bent (to increase the size of the pores in the surface of the tree) at point blank range added no additional distance into the tree. A piece of reed was tested as the sturdiest organic object that might be mistaken for a piece of straw. At both ranges, the reed only managed to go about two inches into the tree. Additionally, Jamie tried a piece of piano wire, and at 50 cm, it flew not only through the tree but through a sheet of plywood on the wall behind it, partially embedding itself into the cement wall

My point is, there are better bullets designed other then the FMJ or SP that are going to be a better hunting round. Giving adequate performance of expansion as well as penetration. If not, then why would we compare hunting with the M1 to even the less powerful, but still adequate .357 that does offer a bullet designed to expand for a quicker kill.

I would no sooner hunt with a FMJ out of an M1 as I would hunt with a FMJ out of a 30-06. Same as I would not hunt deer with my bow using field points which will penetrate completely through a deer leaving a small hole versus using a broadhead which creates a much larger wound channel creating way more blood loss resulting in a quicker death.

[MJN77]

There are many (many) accounts from the European and Pacific theaters in WWII about the M1 carbine's lack of "stopping power". Accounts like an enemy taking several hits from a carbine before falling. Enemy soldiers being hit and not even flinching. On the other hand, Audie Murphy said he preferred the M1 carbine to "hunt Germans". I saw my father kill a large doe with a Universal M1 carbine with FMJ ammo. Deer made it about twenty yards before she died. Bullet went through her liver and made a hole half the size of my fist. Any bullet can be lethal, even a FMJ .30 carbine round. But there are so many better choices out there.

[TimSr]

kraigwy,

I will disagree with your numbers. A 158gr XTP leaves my 6" Ruger at just under 1600 fps. A 110gr bullet from my 6" Ruger will equal or exceed.30 carbine velocities with the same bullet weight. While .357 is minimal and marginal for deer, it would be foolish to use a 110gr RN bullet for them. While I also dispute your energy levels at 100 or 200 yards for the same reason, I wouldn't shoot at deer at that range with either.

I keep hearing that "shot placement is everything" and I dispute that assertion as well. Shot placement is 50%. Shot placement means nothing unless the bullet penetrates far enough, and performs its job on the way. The amount of damage a bullet does to vital organs in a perfectly placed shot can be the difference between a deer dying quickly 20 yards away to be recovered, and dying 1/2 mile and several minutes later, never to be found.

[JohnKSa]

IMO, it should be OK if you treat it as a pistol round.

Good answer. Get good quality expanding ammunition, limit the range and be willing to pass up the shot if you don't have a good angle.

[Todd1700]

Having killed a couple of deer with a .30 caliber carbine when I was a teenager I would rate it as one of the worst deer rounds that is legal in most places. I also had the added experience of trailing not just the two deer I killed with it but a few that my cousins killed with it as well. There are few, maybe no, other center fire rifle cartridges out there with a .22 or bigger caliber bullet that I would pass over to choose the .30 caliber carbine. It sucks that bad.

I have never killed a deer with a .357 mag so perhaps it's no better but at least it starts out as a bigger caliber which should make a little bigger hole. And there is a much wider selection of bullets for the .357. The deer I shot with a carbine had a .30 caliber hole in and a .30 caliber hole out. It just didn't produce enough velocity to expand the lead tip bullets we were using back then. That being the case almost all bleeding was internal so blood trails sucked and were hard to follow. This was important because due to it's complete lack of knock down power all deer we shot with it ran and ran and ran. We had to get the dogs to find some of them.

If it was all I had to feed my family then I'd use it and limit my shots to pistol distances. In fact despite my typical dislike of them I'd probably take close range head shots with a .30 caliber carbine if forced to use one again.

Any of the other calibers the original poster listed are 10 to 20 times a better deer cartridge.

[Gunplummer]

I had a Universal years back. They are a civilian market production gun. It had feed issues a lot, even with really good magazines. Actually, they were known for that. I would make sure you have a good feeding one before going hunting with it. Otherwise, why not? I have killed a lot of deer that were already wounded and found a lot more already dead. I do most of my hunting in PA where semi-autos are not legal to hunt with, so I would venture to guess that none were shot with a .30 carbine. I am thinking 30-30 as the deer wound and lose rifle of all time. I may be wrong. Let us know how you make out.

[Keg]

I would say that the 30 carbine would fall in the lower 10% of legal deer hunting rounds..so the answer is no....U have way better calibers and rifles....

[kraigwy]

I also dispute your energy levels at 100 or 200 yards for the same reason,

You can dispute all you want, or you can down load any of the free ballistic programs out there and plug the numbers in and see for your self.

I'm not buying the 6" Ruger will exceed the velocity of the 18 inch carbine using the same bullet weight.

[NWPilgrim]

As noted above the Carbine was Audie Murphy's favorite WWII weapon. But when you read his book To Hell and Back he also mentions he drills the enemy between the eyes. He liked the Carbine because it was short and light and he could get it on the enemy faster.

The lever action .30-30 has similar quick handling but has a more powerful cartridge.

[44 AMP]

.30 carbine was never designed to maim enemys and its ballistics overshadow the .357 magnum which is considered GTG on deer in most places.

The .30 Carbine was designed to be a replacement arm for the 1911A1 pistol, in the hands of service and support troops. Training someone to be able to actually make hits with the pistol at beyond point blank range is often a lengthy and time consuming matter. With a war on, troops that were NOT intended to be combat troops, yet still needing a weapon, were well served with a light carbine that they could make hits with out to 100yds or so when needed.

The Carbine quickly found favor with the combat troops, because it was light, held a lot of rounds (15) and was powerful enough to be useful in combat. Note that useful is not the same as efficient or highly effective.

As far as the .30 carbine round's ballistics "overshadowing" the .357 Mag, I don't know what ballistic tables you are looking at, but I'd love to see them, because the .30 carbine does NOT overshadow the .357 in any effective way.

Compare them both out of a carbine and the .357 gets as much, or more velocity, with heavier bullets, and is capable of shooting much heavier bullets than the carbine. Also, .357 bullets are much better shaped and suited to hunting than .30 carbine bullets.

The .30 Carbine round comes close to the .357, but only close, and in the game fields, at the speeds these two are capable of, bullet weight and construction are very significant and in that, the .357 has a clear edge.

[TimSr]

.357 and .30 carbine are easy to compare with reloading data since they both perform best with the same powder. (H110)

Hogdon's published website reloading data shows

.357 110gr from a pistol at 2078fps
.357 110gr from a carbine at 2398fps
.30 C 110gr from a carbine at 2106 fps

The Hogdon data does not mention test barrel length, but seems to re-enforce my own data claims.

Ruger used to make a .30 carbine SA revolver. I have load data for them as well. .30 with 110gr at 1590fps.

[kraigwy]

Using Berger's BC Program

6 in barrel Model 27, 158 gn Jacketed bullet, 1350 FPS

357
+----------------------------- Program Inputs ---------------------------------+
| |
+---- Bullet Inputs -----+----Atmosphere Inputs ----+-------Sight Inputs ------+
| Caliber: 0.357 inches | Temperature: 59 degrees | Sight Height: .75 inches |
| Weight: 158 grains | Pressure: 29.92 inHg | Zero Range: 100 yards |
| G1 BC: .206 lb/in^2 | Humidity: 0 % | Look Angle: 0 degrees |
| G1 Form Factor: 0.860 | Density: 0.07647 lb/ft^3 | |
| MZL Velocity: 1350 fps| Wind Speed: 1 mph | |
| | Wind Direction: 3 O'clock| |
+------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+


+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (inches) (sec) (inches)
0 1350 639 -0.75 0.0000 0.00
50 1230 530 2.50 0.1165 -0.10
100 1132 449 -0.00 0.2439 -0.38
150 1057 392 -9.28 0.3812 -0.84
200 1000 350 -26.32 0.5273 -1.46
250 952 318 -52.06 0.6811 -2.21
300 912 292 -87.38 0.8421 -3.09

_______________________________________________________________

30 Cal Carbine, USGI Underwood, 110 Gr RN @ 2000 fps

Carbine
+----------------------------- Program Inputs ---------------------------------+
| |
+---- Bullet Inputs -----+----Atmosphere Inputs ----+-------Sight Inputs ------+
| Caliber: 0.308 inches | Temperature: 59 degrees | Sight Height: .75 inches |
| Weight: 110 grains | Pressure: 29.92 inHg | Zero Range: 100 yards |
| G1 BC: 0.175 lb/in^2 | Humidity: 0 % | Look Angle: 0 degrees |
| G1 Form Factor: 0.947 | Density: 0.07647 lb/ft^3 | |
| MZL Velocity: 2000 fps| Wind Speed: 1 mph | |
| | Wind Direction: 3 O'clock| |
+------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+


+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (inches) (sec) (inches)
0 2000 977 -0.75 0.0000 0.00
50 1785 779 0.99 0.0794 -0.08
100 1588 616 0.00 0.1685 -0.33
150 1411 486 -4.46 0.2688 -0.77
200 1261 388 -13.29 0.3814 -1.43
250 1140 318 -27.61 0.5068 -2.32
300 1052 270 -48.60 0.6440 -3.42

_____________________________________________________________

I used "Shooter" on my phone for the last post. There is a bit of difference.

There is also a bit difference using the 357 (same bullet) in my Marlin.

357 Rifle
+----------------------------- Program Inputs ---------------------------------+
| |
+---- Bullet Inputs -----+----Atmosphere Inputs ----+-------Sight Inputs ------+
| Caliber: 0.357 inches | Temperature: 59 degrees | Sight Height: 1. inches |
| Weight: 158 grains | Pressure: 29.92 inHg | Zero Range: 100 yards |
| G1 BC: 0.206 lb/in^2 | Humidity: 0 % | Look Angle: 0 degrees |
| G1 Form Factor: 0.860 | Density: 0.07647 lb/ft^3 | |
| MZL Velocity: 1750 fps| Wind Speed: 10 mph | |
| | Wind Direction: 3 O'clock| |
+------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+


+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (inches) (sec) (inches)
0 1750 1074 -1.00 0.0000 0.00
50 1584 880 1.24 0.0901 -0.78
100 1433 720 0.00 0.1898 -3.23
150 1300 593 -5.48 0.2998 -7.52
200 1188 495 -16.12 0.4206 -13.71
250 1100 424 -32.91 0.5521 -21.76
300 1033 374 -56.88 0.6930 -31.48

_________________________________________________________________

Again: Is the 30 cal carbine the best for deer size animals? NO, I prefer my 257 Roberts, but at hand gun range it looses nothing to the 357 Revolver.

I don't hunt with pistols either.

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by 44 AMP:

The .30 Carbine was designed to be a replacement arm for the 1911A1 pistol, in the hands of service and support troops. Training someone to be able to actually make hits with the pistol at beyond point blank range is often a lengthy and time consuming matter. With a war on, troops that were NOT intended to be combat troops, yet still needing a weapon, were well served with a light carbine that they could make hits with out to 100yds or so when needed.

The Carbine quickly found favor with the combat troops, because it was light, held a lot of rounds (15) and was powerful enough to be useful in combat. Note that useful is not the same as efficient or highly effective.

My dad was a radioman in the 4th Marine Division during WWII. He earned the "expert" rifle marksmanship badge in basic and was originally issued a 1911 because of the 90# radio he carried on his back. Before his first beach landing, he was reissued the M-1 carbine. On the big ship gettin' ready to get on a LCVP for the first time at Saipan, a veteran of previous assaults advised him to drop the carbine first chance he got and take a Garand from the first fallen Marine he saw. So he did....... and again on Tinian and again on Iwo. Each time, before the landing, he was reissued a Carbine and he time he ditched it once he hit the beach. In the '60s when I fist started to hunt, the carbines were $79 a piece, your choice outta a barrel at the sporting goods section of Sears or Montgomery Ward. My dad would never let me get one, because of how ineffective he thought they were. Dunno if he ever witnessed this or it was just ship talk. During those same years anytime you heard more than 5 shots in rapid fire during deer season, you knew it was a M-1 Carbine. The only thing else than held more than 5 was the 30-30 and .32 levers, and they sounded different. Along with the notoriety for inaccuracy was the fact that the only available ammo at that time was FMJ...not really a good deer hunting round. This is where the talk of deer shot 12-15 times before they went down came into play.

Nowadays with better ammo it makes for more viable deer gun than it used to be, but it is still marginal IMHO. While I have always wanted one, even once I got old enough to buy my own, I never did, just outta respect for my old man. He was a fan of the 1911 tho.......

[44 AMP]

Two stories involving the carbine.. from some fellows I used to work with...

One guy had been a SeaBee (CB) in the Pacific. Some island with a name he couldn't remember...clearing for an airstrip. Japanese sniper in a palm tree. Potting shots at the guys and the dozer. They shoot back with carbines. Sniper scurries to the other side of the tree. This goes on for a while. The sniper hadn't hit anyone, yet, but he was getting close...

Along comes a lanky marine with a thick southern accent, a cheek full of chew, and a BAR..."Y'all got a problem?"

BAR gunner dumps "half a clip" into the top of the tree. Rifle falls to the ground, and sniper falls to the end of his rope. Problem.. solved.

the other story comes from a friend who was a telephone lineman, in Korea. He said he liked the carbine, but he never had to shoot anyone with it. He hated the winter, (not just for the cold), but because they took away his carbine in winter and made him carry an M1 Garand, which he said weighed at least twice as much...

I have seen a lot of people here on the web in recent years saying how the .357 is either marginal or not enough for deer. I never found that to be the case, myself. If you are one of those who thinks the .357 isn't enough, then the .30 carbine is out.

Personally, I think that if you could humanely do it with a .357 pistol, you could do it with an M1 carbine, if it was necessary. I wouldn't choose the carbine for deer as a first choice though.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Just a suggestion. If intending to hunt with a 30 carbine and its shooter doesn't have confidence in his or perhaps the rifles ability. Best not to take one afield under those circumstances.

I remember a time in the past when my father at the age of 82 was still hunting deer here in Northern MN. He loved his little paratroopers 30 carbine because of its lightness in carrying and its handy dandy folding wire stock. {although he did have a 300 Savage at home also.} At that time we two were involved with many of the farming neighbors and our friends in making Post & Drives. For many years our family's did that type of hunting together. Dear old dad by that age was too old to walk the woods anymore because of his bad knee's. And was always given a stand/post not far from the parked vehicles whenever possible. {which no doubt pleased him.} My Father was one of those fellows no matter where you put him He'd see deer. They'd just go to him like being magnetized. {Fishing with him was the same way.}

On one occasion I was deliberately Posted in a tree stand not far down the line from Pop's (maybe 75 yards away) My keeping an eye on him standing on the ground and watching my own area was the plan. I seen a (driven) fawn break thru the brush edge and it was defiantly high-balling across an open hay field right towards that old gent. All of a sudden He opened fired on that little deer when it was near too running him over. 18 rds he touched off in that 30-Carbine while that deer danced around 50 feet or so directly in front of him. In the wide open too. With the last round fired and his noting that Carbines action was locked open. Not having a spare clip. That flustered old fellow lowered his rifle looked at that little Brown fellow and shook his fist at it. While the deer stood there and simply looked at back at him also. I was laughing so hard I actually teared up and darn near fell backwards out of my stand. [I ended up shooting the deer for him but didn't tell anyone I did]_ {well you know all that shooting is gone'a garner attention from everyone evolved.}_ When we skinned it later that same evening. I counted 9 holes in that little feller. {in all the wrong places it shouldn't be shot.} Near everyone in the party stood and watched its skinning in my fathers garage that evening. (11 guys and a couple wives I counted too) As it was and entertaining moment with an unbelievable amount of teasing directed towards my dad who's newly labeled name {typically for that one season only} was "Deer PoP'er Patty." Somehow in good humor and behavior he managed to endure that evening in the hunting shack afterwards and all those other evenings that followed till the end of that years deer season.

The following year the Friday night before season starting. We all together enjoying the evening after a (fresh pot roast of camp meat) B/S'ing and having a few beers & Jameson bumps in our parties hunting shack. One of the party members. (boss guy) walked up and gave his best friend a wrapped present. The room went totally quiet at that moment. With enthusiasm my Father opened his well wrapped in Christmas paper present. A brand new 30 rd G.I. banana clip was discovered. My fathers 2-word Irish tempered comment couldn't be controlled at that moment and filled the room. I don't dare post it here other than its last word >~~~~Y'all!!
Just another one of those unforgotten humorous moment I've managed not to forget so far. And one I thought I would share.

[militant]

I think of it like this. You pay for a hunting license and gas to go. Sure, any caliber could hypothetically kill a deer. But why would you chance it. You can buy a single shot handi rifle or a rossi in a more suitable deer caliber.

[TimSr]

Since the carbine and .357 are of near equal velocity with the same 110gr bullet weight, one would have to conclude that .357 with a 110gr bullet would be a better choice than a 158gr based on an energy chart. All velocity and energy discussion aside, the .357 will probably make at least a .45" hole and wound channel with the proper ammo/bullet selection you can buy at any gun store.

What hunting ammo is available for a .30 carbine that will make a hole and wound channel larger than .30"? I can handload some old Hornady Short jackets, or Speer Plinkers, but I don't think they are made any more, and I think they would come apart on impact. Does any company make quality hunting ammo for .30 carbine?

[WIN1886]

Corbon .30 carbine 100 grain DPX !

[shortwave]

Corbon .30 carbine 100 grain DPX !

Must be a popular little bugger. On backorder at Midway.

Gonna have to get a box and see how they cycle and perform. If they perform reliably I'll have to load up my M1 HD rifle. Has to be better then FMJ as far as SD is concerned.

[44 AMP]

I'd be interested in finding out what those Cor-bons actually do. Please let us know when you try some.

I have pushed .357 125gr JHP at 2200fps in a Marlin carbine. That is just something you cannot do in an M1 carbine.

Unfortunately, the regular 125gr .357 JHP is not well suited to this high speed. Expansion is ...energetic, and penetration is correspondingly reduced.

The 158gr JSP is a better choice, and handles the carbine velocity much better. And no .30cal carbine load can quite match the 158gr .357 performance on game.

Bullet weight, speed, and size, the .357 out performs the .30 carbine in every useful way I can see.

[DennisCA]

IMHO - The 30 carbine cartridge should be used a plinking round, not a hunting round. It might be fine in a ideal situation but how many ideal situations are their in the woods?

I found this article, (on another forum) pretty good info:

http://ingunowners.com/forums/ammuni...0-carbine.html

[WIN1886]

I'm wondering if the Cor-bon Hunter DPX .30 carbine 100 grain ammunition is still available ? I read it used a Barnes X 100 grain hollow point ( all copper) but I don't see that bullet listed on the latest Barnes bullet chart ! Anyway , I know someone that has used Remington 110 grain soft points for hunting purposes....success rate is unknown to me ! I'm not a fan of the .30 carbine but the Cor-bon load sounded interesting !