Attacker about to grab you; no eveidence of weapon; what do you do and what's legal - Page 2

timothy75 · November 22, 2006, 05:09 AM

You could fake a heart attack, he may not want a death on his record or concious and leave.

stephen426 · November 22, 2006, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timothy75

You could fake a heart attack, he may not want a death on his record or concious and leave.

Hey Tim... is your nickname possum?

I think that would just make it easier for the bad guy to take your stuff. Just lie down for him.

invention_45 · November 22, 2006, 11:57 AM

Quote:

If your BG is 10 feet away and already running at you, you will NOT clear the holster and get off a shot.

While this might not seem obvious, remember the last time you were running or saw someone running fast. A running step is about 3 feet long. Don't forget to count the guy's reach. Running, you take about two steps per second. This means you have about 0.9 seconds to dig around with your hand and find your gun, get it out of the holster, which might be a bit of a yank, get the gun past whatever clothing is covering your holster, move the gun to point in the direction of the attacker, and pull the trigger. Sounds impossible to me. Add to that that your first shot is pretty unlikely to hit anything, even at 10 feet, that freezes your attacker in space. He'll still likely be capable of injuring you badly and still be on his way toward you by sheer momentum.

Quote:

If the BG is 20 feet away, you MIGHT get off 1 shot if you paractice a lot, especially from concealment.

You better be very well practiced. This only gives you 2.0 seconds to do all that stuff.

Quote:

If you yell at the guy just yell, STOP!

And you better multitask that yelling with drawing.

---

I have read that 21 feet is sort of the rule that courts use when your are defending a knife-wielding assailant. But the definitions I have heard assume the assailant starts from standing still. His acceleration probably gives you an additional second. Still not very comforting.

The real deal is that you should try your best to anticipate how risky the places you intend to place yourself may be. Then stay out of these places unless you absolutely have to go there. In that case, you should give your gun a yank to loosen it from settling in the holster and so that your hand knows exactly where the gun is at the moment. If you can keep your hand on it without being seen, all the better. Then get your business done and get the hell out of there.

I've read some actual "caught off guard" successful self-defense stories involving such distances. In all the cases, the gun owner knew they were walking into potential trouble and had the gun not in the holster, but drawn and in-hand but hidden in papers or something.

stephen426 · November 22, 2006, 12:16 PM

I think many of you guys are missing a big point of this arguement... when do you know for sure you are getting attacked or going to get attacked? Do you draw on every guy and double tap him just for running in your direction? If so, please let me know so I can move far the hell away from where you live.

I believe the laws concerning the use of force have a little gray area. I can understand the whole disparity of force arguement, but unless you are under attack, or the attacker has produced a weapon and is advancing on you, when are you actually justified in using deadly force? I guess it comes down to the ole "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 arguement".

invention_45 · November 22, 2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

when do you know for sure you are getting attacked or going to get attacked?

It's worse than that. Once you are sure you are being attacked, how do you determine that the attack is apt to cause you serious bodily injury or death? That is a particularly gray area, because a simple shove can kill you, while often being shot won't.

That's why it's best to try to at least avoid doing obviously dangerous things like using dark alleys instead of walking an extra block and using a well-lighted street.

When I began firearm self-defense training, I was one of 4 students. I was the one who had just bought a gun, so I was the very least experienced. The idea was to wait for motion to start, draw, fire, recognize a jam (that we KNEW was there), clear it, and then fire on the attacker.

The next guy up from me had taken 4 SD courses. He managed to shoot the "attacker" approaching from 50 feet when there were 10 feet left, pretty consistently. The more trained guys did better, like they had 30 feet margin.

I, on the other hand, was killed every time. And we KNEW we were supposed to shoot and were ready and waiting.

The point of the whole thing, in response to the original question, is that finding yourself in the proposed scenario is finding yourself in a monumentally tight spot.

cloudcroft · November 23, 2006, 12:43 AM

"Attacker about to grab you; no eveidence of weapon; what do you do and what's legal?"

Assuming that you were taken completely by surprise (HTH did that happen?), you have NO TIME to think about "what's legal"...to hell with that crap. If you do stop to ponder the question, you're already behind the curve -- playing catch-up -- since your assailant isn't giving THAT any thought whatsoever.

You do the same.

How far you go -- injury to said assailant -- is up to you, but others will act differently...that's their call as it is yours.

I know what *I* would do, but can't tell you or anyone else to do it.

-- John D.

Koz · November 25, 2006, 01:00 AM

clinch and knee till he falls to the ground

2400 · November 26, 2006, 05:04 PM

Quote:

If the BG is 10 ft. away and closing, it's too late to do anything except brace yourself for the blow if you haven't already drawn and aimed your weapon.

+1 ....

njtrigger · November 26, 2006, 08:39 PM

Everything can be justified if explained the right way.

The man was running towards you in a hostile and aggressive manner. He had his hands in his pockets and you dont know what he was taking out. You drew your weapon and commanded the man to halt. He did not halt and his hand was still in his pockets. You then fired your weapon out of fear that he would either wrestle the weapon out of your hand and use it against you or he would take something out of his pocket to use against you.

Since you were out on the street, there was no place to retreat to where the aggressor could not catch up to you. If you had tried to run, then you would have simply run out of breath or he might have caught up to you where he would have used your weapon against you.

firemedic1975 · December 12, 2006, 05:52 PM

In Florida the law passed last year says that if feel threathened your are allowed to use deadly force.

CraigJS · December 13, 2006, 07:57 PM

It's amazing how many posters don't stick to the origional posters scenario, dealing with situation, health conditions, BG size etc... But instead go off on a tangent.
Read your state laws, consider your situation, ask the question to LEO's, lawyers, permit instructors etc. Then you make your choice, a choice that you may have to live with or die with.
I wish you well, stay safe.

November 22, 2006, 12:16 PM	#29
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I think many of you guys are missing a big point of this arguement... when do you know for sure you are getting attacked or going to get attacked? Do you draw on every guy and double tap him just for running in your direction? If so, please let me know so I can move far the hell away from where you live. I believe the laws concerning the use of force have a little gray area. I can understand the whole disparity of force arguement, but unless you are under attack, or the attacker has produced a weapon and is advancing on you, when are you actually justified in using deadly force? I guess it comes down to the ole "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 arguement". __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

December 12, 2006, 05:52 PM	#35
firemedic1975 Member Join Date: November 28, 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 88	In Florida the law passed last year says that if feel threathened your are allowed to use deadly force. __________________ You HAVE to stand for something or you WILL fall for anything!!! American by birth SOUTHERN by the Grace of God!!! Colt Double Eagle .45, Kimber Stainless Ultra Carry II .45, Sig 226 9mm, Ruger G100 .357 mag, S&W Airweight .38+p, Glock 23, Berretta Neo .22, (2) Yugo SKS's, 12 gauge Winchester 3 in, Marlin 30-30, H&K G-3 (91)

November 22, 2006, 05:09 AM	#26
timothy75 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Nevada Posts: 1,146	You could fake a heart attack, he may not want a death on his record or concious and leave.

November 23, 2006, 12:43 AM	#31
cloudcroft Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 565	"Attacker about to grab you; no eveidence of weapon; what do you do and what's legal?" Assuming that you were taken completely by surprise (HTH did that happen?), you have NO TIME to think about "what's legal"...to hell with that crap. If you do stop to ponder the question, you're already behind the curve -- playing catch-up -- since your assailant isn't giving THAT any thought whatsoever. You do the same. How far you go -- injury to said assailant -- is up to you, but others will act differently...that's their call as it is yours. I know what I would do, but can't tell you or anyone else to do it. -- John D.

November 25, 2006, 01:00 AM	#32
Koz Member Join Date: September 5, 2005 Posts: 27	clinch and knee till he falls to the ground

November 26, 2006, 08:39 PM	#34
njtrigger Junior member Join Date: October 14, 2006 Posts: 154	Everything can be justified if explained the right way. The man was running towards you in a hostile and aggressive manner. He had his hands in his pockets and you dont know what he was taking out. You drew your weapon and commanded the man to halt. He did not halt and his hand was still in his pockets. You then fired your weapon out of fear that he would either wrestle the weapon out of your hand and use it against you or he would take something out of his pocket to use against you. Since you were out on the street, there was no place to retreat to where the aggressor could not catch up to you. If you had tried to run, then you would have simply run out of breath or he might have caught up to you where he would have used your weapon against you.

December 13, 2006, 07:57 PM	#36
CraigJS Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2005 Posts: 372	It's amazing how many posters don't stick to the origional posters scenario, dealing with situation, health conditions, BG size etc... But instead go off on a tangent. Read your state laws, consider your situation, ask the question to LEO's, lawyers, permit instructors etc. Then you make your choice, a choice that you may have to live with or die with. I wish you well, stay safe.