Is caliber really all that important for ccw - Page 2

nate45 · February 7, 2012, 03:26 PM

As an aside, of course ballistic testing is important. Without it, we would not have the reliably expanding projectiles we have today.

For those who don't subscribe to ballistic testing; how do you propose that bullet penetration and expansion be tested?

There is a great body of scientific work on bullet performance and it has been absolutely proven, that the aggregate penetration and expansion between bare ballistic gelatin and gelatin covered by 4-layers of denim, closely mimics actual living tissue shooting results.

Why Four Layers of Denim Cloth?

Go to Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition web site, you will find that they use the FBI and IWBA test protocol. Through that testing they were able to develop their outstanding Ranger-T line.

Science is our friend.

2damnold4this · February 7, 2012, 06:40 PM

+1 Nate

That doesn't mean that a round that doesn't make the ideal FBI numbers can't kill or disable you but it does give us a way to compare ammunition.

mavracer · February 7, 2012, 08:25 PM

Since the vast majority of stops will be of the psycological type these are far more dependant on Mr BGs mindset than caliber.
Caliber matters little.
The BGs that are not so inclined to stop and must be stopped physoligacly place all handguns securly in the iffy at best catagory.
Caliber matters a little more but still well below shot placement.

mo84 · February 7, 2012, 09:04 PM

I can say that their has been alot of thought put into these responses and I can see how in some cercumstances bigger is going to be better, for the person that is hell bent on attacking you and amped on drugs. I guess I just figured, that for the most part, when an attacker gets hit, they would most likely be more worried about their own health and seeking safety rather than keep coming after you. I am also happy to see this thread didn't get carried away as it easily could have. Very interesting and informative to see how everyone views this question

Nnobby45 · February 7, 2012, 09:39 PM

Quote:

If they did for some chance keep walking after getting hit, a follow up shot should surely slow them down no matter the caliber. If stopping the person from coming at you is the goal, then I think in most casses, the caliber probably does not matter. There will always be an exception to the rule but For the most part that is how I see it.

Apparently, after ZILLIONS of threads and discussions on the subject, as well as accurate technical data involving real shootings, you have, without reading any of them, created your own theory and expressed such wisdom as "a follow up shot should surely slow them down no matter what the caliber."

A couple of points:

1. A person with a gun doesn't have to come at you. This may come as a shock, but he can actually kill you from a distance.

2. A substantial number of people who have been shot, don't know it at the time. A fatally shot person may still kill you, since adrenaline is a powerful drug in it's own right and both good guys and bad have continued to fight after receiving serious, or even fatal, wounds.

3. Using normal thinking to judge the actions, or reaction to being shot, of a doped up criminal whose thinking is anything but normal, might be a mistake.

Something else to think about, is that the criminal mind set would more likely be to "come at you" before you knew what was happening, and long before you had a chance to draw your gun.

**Frank Ettin** · February 7, 2012, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavracer

Since the vast majority of stops will be of the psycological type these are far more dependant on Mr BGs mindset than caliber.
Caliber matters little.
The BGs that are not so inclined to stop and must be stopped physoligacly place all handguns securly in the iffy at best catagory.
Caliber matters a little more but still well below shot placement.

Except you don't get to choose your BG ahead of time. Maybe the guy who will attack you next week will be particularly sensitive to bullet wounds, but I sure wouldn't count on it. So the better prepared you are to stop him, no matter what his disposition, the happier you'll be with the outcome.

Nnobby45 · February 7, 2012, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavracer
Since the vast majority of stops will be of the psycological type these are far more dependant on Mr BGs mindset than caliber.
Caliber matters little.
The BGs that are not so inclined to stop and must be stopped physoligacly place all handguns securly in the iffy at best catagory.
Caliber matters a little more but still well below shot placement.

This ignores advances in bullet technology that have shown better results on the streets in actual shootings.

I believe it's incorrect to suggest that caliber and bullet design always take a back seat to the mind set of the criminal when bullets are placed with reasonable accuracy. Lesser calibers and inferior bullet designs require surgical accuracy.

B.N.Real · February 8, 2012, 01:03 AM

The scary parts is that a human being can kill you before he dies from all the bullets you put in him.

For that reason,you need to shoot calibers of large enough size to at least let him know he's being shot.

You are talking about an encounter with another human being determined to do you harm and he's closing distance on you in likely no more then two seconds.

In that distance,you might get two or three rounds off before he's on you.

This is someone with a knife or a club or just his hands,wacked out -angry as hell.

A person with a handgun is another matter altogehter as you will face exactly what you are trying to defend yourself with.

A person of unknown training using a gun against you of unknown caliber who is trying to kill you-presumably to rob you or who knows-mayber today was the day this guy's -had it with the world day-and you 'unlucked' into his perimeter.

The only thing that will stop your assailant is the ballistic damage you do to him before he can harm you.

If that damage is not sufficient to make him consciously stop his attack-you need to create enough physical damage in his body so he cannot continue his attack.

And human fat acts as a great destabilizer of weak calibers ballisitic performance so the bigger and nastier the bad guy the more ballistic performance you will need to make any change in the bad guys trajectory towards YOU.

You might only have two seconds to do all that.

You want a 22 lr to defend yourself now?

mavracer · February 8, 2012, 02:06 PM

Quote:

So the better prepared you are to stop him, no matter what his disposition, the happier you'll be with the outcome.

There's a better than fair chance that you won't be "happy" with the outcome no matter what your packing.

Quote:

I believe it's incorrect to suggest that caliber and bullet design always take a back seat to the mind set of the criminal when bullets are placed with reasonable accuracy. Lesser calibers and inferior bullet designs require surgical accuracy.

I'm sorry but I've seen too much game run off with solid hits from a high powered rifle to beleve that any service handgun is not going to require surgical accuracy for a real physicological stop.

jason_iowa · February 8, 2012, 02:20 PM

357 mag and up are my criteria. To answer your question yes it is that important to me. I'm happy to make suggestions to people but I won't tell anyone what or if they carry and I won't let anyone tell me what's best for me to carry. If you have something you are capable and competent enough to deploy it then you're in the right ball park...

**Frank Ettin** · February 8, 2012, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavracer

There's a better than fair chance that you won't be "happy" with the outcome no matter what your packing... .

"Happy" in this context is a relative term.

johnmed3 · February 8, 2012, 02:49 PM

Personally i would not carry anything smaller than 9mm. Always carry the biggest caliber you can carry and shoot well. Remember "carrying a handgun is supposed to be comforting not comfortable"

BlackFeather · February 8, 2012, 03:25 PM

For me, it goes in order of:

How the weapon will be carried
Size of the weapon, determined by how it will be carried.
Caliber of the weapon, to fit the size needed, and to determine 4
Capacity of the weapon. Maximum allowed by size and caliber.

I find it's important in selecting the firearm, yes. Plenty of people have been killed with smaller calibers, plenty have been killed by larger calibers. I'm going to determine what caliber by the size of the gun, a .45 with a smaller grip will be harder to shoot for me. Would I prefer a full size .45? Sure, but all else taken into account it's not going to be possible.

As for "stopping power", any bullet will do something, as long as you hit, and hit well. I'm going to be more worried about the situation, and my ability to draw, than the bullet size. More importantly, do you really think he's going to know?

manta49 · February 8, 2012, 03:51 PM

Nathan.
Quote.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
40 S&W and 45 ACP are proven stoppers in testing and street statistics.

What and where are the statistics showing that. ?

manta49 · February 8, 2012, 04:11 PM

The army issued a .22 pistol here for personal protection. They must of tought it would be effective. I think if you want to stop someone consistently without perfect shots you need a rifle.

mavracer · February 8, 2012, 04:36 PM

Quote:

"Happy" in this context is a relative term

Yes and it's quite contengent. Your going to have to survive in order to have any happiness. Using a larger caliber doesn't guarentee survival so there is no guarentee that you'll be any happier by using a larger caliber.
Of course I can't imagine getting through and wondering if you could have got by with less gun

TexasJustice7 · February 8, 2012, 04:46 PM

Quote:

LawScholar: Myself, I created a "carry window".

.380 Automatic
9x18 Makarov
.38 Special
9x19 Parabellum/9mm Luger
.40 Smith & Wesson
.45 Automatic Colt Pistol

I don't know why I typed them all out. Sometimes they seem kinda cool that way. I'm a geek.

Anyway, anything smaller or larger than that (very rough) window I'm not interested in carrying concealed. Those rounds, to me, represent the bare minimum defensive round against a human target (.380) to the maximum I can shoot comfortably in a concealable

I notice you did not include the 44 Spl. I carry a Charter Arms 44 Spl Bulldog 3" as primary, a S&W 38 Spl as backup, and do not always carry a S&W 625 4" Long Colt 45. I have confidence in the stopping power of a 44 Spl as the Bulldog is very close to the size of a J Frame and comfortable to carry.

markj · February 8, 2012, 05:18 PM

After my cousin was shot 4 times with a 357 I must say shot placement is king. Dont matter what you shoot him with unless its a 20mm or larger, that if you dont hit the important parts he will not just lay down and die.

Same goes with hunting..... why wouldnt it go with SD?

**Frank Ettin** · February 8, 2012, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavracer

...Using a larger doesn't guarantee survival...

Nope, just improves your chances some, if you can manage it and all other things being equal.

Deutscher · February 8, 2012, 06:01 PM

There are four ways in which shooting an assailant actually can stop a fight:

psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function
breaking major skeletal support structures
damaging the central nervous system.

@Fiddletown. Loved your post. I think you hit it on the head.

mavracer · February 8, 2012, 07:20 PM

Quote:

just improves your chances some

it might, maybe, but even then only some of the time.
And are you sure it does. Even if you destroy the heart and lungs you have 15-30 seconds that Mr BG can return fire, so who is better off the guy who thinks I'm carrying a XX uber magnum and emptys all 25 rounds COM only to have Mr BG drill him in the head with his 10th shot or the guy who realizes all handguns suck and after the first two rounds don't have the desired effect puts the 3rd 32acp right between mr BG's eyes ending his aggression

kgpcr · February 8, 2012, 07:30 PM

It makes no difference at all. That is why so many Alaskana carry a .22lr for bear defence. Yes it does make a difference. the bigger the hole the faster they go down.

MTT TL · February 8, 2012, 07:33 PM

Quote:

The army issued a .22 pistol here for personal protection. They must of tought it would be effective.

I think that is a poor assumption given all the facts.

Nnobby45 · February 8, 2012, 07:47 PM

Quote:

It makes no difference at all. That is why so many Alaskana carry a .22lr for bear defence. Yes it does make a difference. the bigger the hole the faster they go down.

As a survival gun, yes --for small game. Easily stored in a small airplane along with a good supply of ammo. If you think Alaskans carry a .22 for bear defense, I like to contact you about selling some moon rock that fell in my boat while fishing for tarpon at Lake Iliamna, AK; (ok, I probably spelled it wrong).

**Frank Ettin** · February 8, 2012, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavracer

Quote:

...just improves your chances some ...

it might, maybe, but even then only some of the time.
And are you sure it does. Even if you destroy the heart and lungs you have 15-30 seconds that Mr BG can return fire, so who is better off the guy who thinks I'm carrying a XX uber magnum and emptys all 25 rounds COM only to have Mr BG drill him in the head with his 10th shot or the guy who realizes all handguns suck and after the first two rounds don't have the desired effect puts the 3rd 32acp right between mr BG's eyes ending his aggression

Now you're being intellectually dishonest. You've quoted me out of context and changed the parameters. What I wrote was (emphasis added):

Quote:

Nope, just improves your chances some, if you can manage it and all other things being equal.

February 7, 2012, 03:26 PM	#26
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	As an aside, of course ballistic testing is important. Without it, we would not have the reliably expanding projectiles we have today. For those who don't subscribe to ballistic testing; how do you propose that bullet penetration and expansion be tested? There is a great body of scientific work on bullet performance and it has been absolutely proven, that the aggregate penetration and expansion between bare ballistic gelatin and gelatin covered by 4-layers of denim, closely mimics actual living tissue shooting results. Why Four Layers of Denim Cloth? Go to Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition web site, you will find that they use the FBI and IWBA test protocol. Through that testing they were able to develop their outstanding Ranger-T line. Science is our friend. __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

February 8, 2012, 03:25 PM	#38
BlackFeather Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: West Coast Posts: 450	For me, it goes in order of: How the weapon will be carried Size of the weapon, determined by how it will be carried. Caliber of the weapon, to fit the size needed, and to determine 4 Capacity of the weapon. Maximum allowed by size and caliber. I find it's important in selecting the firearm, yes. Plenty of people have been killed with smaller calibers, plenty have been killed by larger calibers. I'm going to determine what caliber by the size of the gun, a .45 with a smaller grip will be harder to shoot for me. Would I prefer a full size .45? Sure, but all else taken into account it's not going to be possible. As for "stopping power", any bullet will do something, as long as you hit, and hit well. I'm going to be more worried about the situation, and my ability to draw, than the bullet size. More importantly, do you really think he's going to know? __________________ "Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi [Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]

February 8, 2012, 07:30 PM	#47
kgpcr Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2005 Posts: 955	It makes no difference at all. That is why so many Alaskana carry a .22lr for bear defence. Yes it does make a difference. the bigger the hole the faster they go down. __________________ Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag Smith M&P 40

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February 7, 2012, 06:40 PM	#27
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	+1 Nate That doesn't mean that a round that doesn't make the ideal FBI numbers can't kill or disable you but it does give us a way to compare ammunition.

February 7, 2012, 09:04 PM	#29
mo84 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 257	I can say that their has been alot of thought put into these responses and I can see how in some cercumstances bigger is going to be better, for the person that is hell bent on attacking you and amped on drugs. I guess I just figured, that for the most part, when an attacker gets hit, they would most likely be more worried about their own health and seeking safety rather than keep coming after you. I am also happy to see this thread didn't get carried away as it easily could have. Very interesting and informative to see how everyone views this question

February 8, 2012, 01:03 AM	#33
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	The scary parts is that a human being can kill you before he dies from all the bullets you put in him. For that reason,you need to shoot calibers of large enough size to at least let him know he's being shot. You are talking about an encounter with another human being determined to do you harm and he's closing distance on you in likely no more then two seconds. In that distance,you might get two or three rounds off before he's on you. This is someone with a knife or a club or just his hands,wacked out -angry as hell. A person with a handgun is another matter altogehter as you will face exactly what you are trying to defend yourself with. A person of unknown training using a gun against you of unknown caliber who is trying to kill you-presumably to rob you or who knows-mayber today was the day this guy's -had it with the world day-and you 'unlucked' into his perimeter. The only thing that will stop your assailant is the ballistic damage you do to him before he can harm you. If that damage is not sufficient to make him consciously stop his attack-you need to create enough physical damage in his body so he cannot continue his attack. And human fat acts as a great destabilizer of weak calibers ballisitic performance so the bigger and nastier the bad guy the more ballistic performance you will need to make any change in the bad guys trajectory towards YOU. You might only have two seconds to do all that. You want a 22 lr to defend yourself now?

February 8, 2012, 02:20 PM	#35
jason_iowa Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 686	357 mag and up are my criteria. To answer your question yes it is that important to me. I'm happy to make suggestions to people but I won't tell anyone what or if they carry and I won't let anyone tell me what's best for me to carry. If you have something you are capable and competent enough to deploy it then you're in the right ball park...

February 8, 2012, 02:49 PM	#37
johnmed3 Junior Member Join Date: April 5, 2011 Posts: 2	Personally i would not carry anything smaller than 9mm. Always carry the biggest caliber you can carry and shoot well. Remember "carrying a handgun is supposed to be comforting not comfortable"

February 8, 2012, 03:51 PM	#39
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	Nathan. Quote. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 40 S&W and 45 ACP are proven stoppers in testing and street statistics. What and where are the statistics showing that. ?

February 8, 2012, 04:11 PM	#40
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	The army issued a .22 pistol here for personal protection. They must of tought it would be effective. I think if you want to stop someone consistently without perfect shots you need a rifle.

February 8, 2012, 05:18 PM	#43
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	After my cousin was shot 4 times with a 357 I must say shot placement is king. Dont matter what you shoot him with unless its a 20mm or larger, that if you dont hit the important parts he will not just lay down and die. Same goes with hunting..... why wouldnt it go with SD?

February 8, 2012, 06:01 PM	#45
Deutscher Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Location: Bethlehem, PA Posts: 27	There are four ways in which shooting an assailant actually can stop a fight: psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more." massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function breaking major skeletal support structures damaging the central nervous system. @Fiddletown. Loved your post. I think you hit it on the head.