The Other Side of the Coin

[artsmom]

I won't comment on this, as I don't think this should be an "us" vs. "them" type discussion, but more of a "what should we do?" give and take discussion.

Here is a discussion on a SWAT raid that missed the address, and various comments on it, some not so helpful, on what should be done in those cases. Anyhow, what would (as Law Enforcement/SWAT team guys expect, how would you react, and what should the occupants do in a case of a mistaken address?

http://www.kimdutoit.com/ee/index.php/weblog.php

Since this guy changes his rants several times a day, look for "Oops, Sorry!" if it is not the current posting.

[artsmom]

BTW, the meat of the debate is found in the "Post Comments" in little red letters at the bottom of the column, where all of his registered users sound off.

[skidmark]

If I remember all the stuff I was taught in high school and beyond, our justice system has two sides. Criminal justice (NO comments about oxymorons, please) punishes violations of the law, and Civil justice deals with everything else.

When cops go to the wrong house, they usually manage to violate the civil rights of one or more people. That being the case, the issue should be settled in civil court, not criminal court. Both the States and the Federal .gov have law, regulations, and procedures for addressing civil rights violations and for rectifying the wrongs done. Amazingly [/sarcasm] most .gov officials are immune from suit for official acts, unless the court determines that a "reasonable" .gov worker in their shoes should have known it was a wrong thing to do. So the .gov gets excused from the case and all that is left is the person as individual to answer for their actions that they should have known were not correct.

Since nobody can go back and un-invade the wrong house, the court gives away somebody else's $$ to make up for screwing up your night's rest. (As I recall, your lawyer gets 1/3 as fee and charges between 1/3 & 1/2 as expenses, leaving you with a lot less than the actual award, plus liability for taxes on the full amount.)

What happens to the .gov worker(s) who screwed up? Do they get fired? Do they get remedial training? Do they get transferred to trash pick-up detail? Usually, but not always, they do not get anything. Although this may, IMNSHO, leave the .gov agency exposed to liability for a repetition of the screwup, it generally does not turn out that way.

Why not? Because generally the same folks do not commit the very next episode of getting things wrong. That way the courts can buy the alibi that the agency was not responsible for the first incident (see "soverign immunity") and also not responsible for the next one (see "it was different folks, so has to be a different mistake"). What that translates to, in my book, is saying nobody has to learn from the errors of others, as long as you work for the .gov.

What frosts me most is that if a criminal is caught & convicted, they remain a criminal for the rest of their lives. No amount of reform, remediation or just never breaking the law can ever change the fact that they are a criminal because one time they were convicted of committing a crime. On the other hand (tm), a .gov worker who screws up by leading the raid on a wrong address is not from then on and forever branded as a screwup. They (supposedly) learn from their error(s) and we hope they do not do that again.

All I got to say in closing is: "Aint civil wrongdoing better than criminal wrongdoing?"

[/rant]

stay safe.

skidmark

[BatmanX]

1. Know who your neighbors are.
2. He is a vietnam vet, I don't think he needs "psychological counseling" for having a flashbang go off in the same room as him.
3. The people responding to the article, appear to be morons at best - I couldn't make it through 6 posts without shaking my head.
4. If SWAT were to come into my house, I would hope they would yell "POLICE!" first, otherwise, they might get a bullet and in turn, I may also get one. Be very unfortunate.
5. Lets hope we never have to be put in that situation.
6. I would expect them to pay for everything new that they broke, a formal apology, and hope that no one got hurt. I don't see a reason for a civil lawsuit, unless you had to pay for medical bills as part of your "arrest" and they weren't insterested in paying for them without a formal trial.

I will stop now, as this thread will probably get out of control.

[Capt. Charlie]

I will stop now, as this thread will probably get out of control.

Yeah, (sigh) it probably will.

If I remember correctly, about 30 years ago the same thing happened in Virginia Beach, with tragic outcome. I believe they executed a no-knock search warrant at a motel. They got the right room number, wrong building. The occupant had a gun on his nightstand and grabbed it when the commotion started. He was fatally shot. I think that one cost VB big bucks. It can and does happen, although techniques have advanced sufficiently that tragic outcomes are very rare today. When we execute a no-knock, speed is the name of the game. We hit so fast & hard that nobody has time to go for a weapon. At least that's what we hope. Flashbangs and lots of yelling also help to disorient the occupants, and hopefully, everybody, including the occupants, are safe in the end. It isn't as hard as you'd think to hit a wrong address. We have one building in town that literally has 3 different addresses on 3 different streets! (depending on what side of the building you're on). Inside, it's all interconnected. We also have 3 Bellview Boulevards, with two of them having identical house numbers. Mailmen really love that, along with EMS, fire, etc. In an ideal world, you do surveillance, sketch out the scene and interior to the team along with a good exterior description prior to deployment, but sometimes you just don't have time to do that. It will (hopefully) be VERY obvious to the occupants of the target that those entering are police, so my advice is to remain still and follow orders. If it's the wrong building, you can raise hell later, but for the time being, let's keep EVERYBODY safe!

[artsmom]

I don't think this thread has to get out of control, as it should be dealt with as any other "what if...?" scenario, this one being "what if we go to the wrong place?" What if it is the right place and the wrong people, one with a CCW?

I am sure there are answers for "what if the guy has a meth lab?" or "what if the guy has pit bulls?" Well, this is just another "what ifs", probably the most sinister one, where a lot of blue guys might get shot and killed and end up as the villians in the end for shooting the innocent guy who killed their partners.

I honestly don't have an answer, except that the idea that no knock search warrants should be used only in times where imminent bodily harm is likely to happen to a person if a no knock search warrant is not served.

[jburtonpdx]

What if.... Man I hope to god that does not happen with anybody I know or at my house. That would just plain suck.... As said earlier, hopefully they would at least be shouting police and maybe down or on the ground or something along those lines. I believe that I would drop and do as ordered if it were to happen. Would not take them to long to figure out that they got the wrong house...

After the fact, I would look for help with any repairs and medical if needed. Other then that, nothing. My view on legitimate search warrants is that I don't want the police to be hindered in anyway, and if this was an honest mistake then that's all it is, a mistake... If big civil suits were to start happening all over the place you just know that accountants would get involved, then all of a sudden a warrant needs a judges signature along with the city comptroller, along with a "sensitivity instructors" signature, along with blah blah .... etc... You know how it can go in a bureaucracy...

That does not change my view on searches that are not legal - if it was discovered that the the search was BS and I don't mean a technical error or something like that, but based on a bogus premise to begin with, then I still go with above, along with severe discipline of the officers responsible for the BS...

Basically I would not want an honest mistake to hinder the police in the future...

[artsmom]

Personally, I would do whatever it took to not get shot or shoot anybody else. That doesn't mean I would shake hands and take an apology, but that can all be worked out AFTER everyone is safe, and if that means eating carpet with a knee in the back, so be it.

The problem comes when might I think that I have to shoot in order not to get shot...

[SamD]

This is an area very very full of problems, Example:
#1 I am very hard of hearing enough that I might have a hard time hearing someone yelling "police"
#2 I wake very easily
#3 I have this building in front of the house called a gun shop that makes me sensitive about invasion by masked people
#4 I live several miles out of town
#5 I have big 8 noisy adult dogs living on the premises
#6 My home was built to be "defensible", you would have a very difficult time placing a disorienting device in here without me knowing it, and if you did you would have to be standing under one of my lights (which if you were real smart you would have to disable prior to the raid) for me to have any hope of identifying you as a no shoot.

People are generally covered before they get within 50 yards of the place. Can you shoot all of the dogs, even supressed with me not knowing about it? And someone carrying weapons out here in the dark becomes autotarget. I have a good security system, specifically designed to prevent surreptitious entry. It is there for a reason, a legitimate reason.

Please explain to me how someone serving a no knock warrant here is not going to get the $H!^ shot out of them? I'd like to know before we end up on the 6 o'clock news!

Sam

[SBrocker8]

So long as I hear police and they look legit (lots of horror stories of fake cop raids out there), I wouldn't even GO for a weapon of ANY sort. Fake cops are a different story. But I'm not involved in anything that would get me in trouble with anyone impersonating a cop, so I'm all set.

Wrong address is a wrong address. They'd quickly realize they messed up, and I must say, I'd make them pay BIG TIME. People need to be held accountable for violations of civil rights like that. But as has been said before, handle the nasty part AFTER the yelling stops.

[Eghad]

Well mistakes happen...just human nature.

We use the reasonable person standard in law. Hopefully a reasonable officer in charge would have had somebody go by and take a look at the place before they get a warrant. After all the ageny is responsible for supplying the information to the court to get a warrant. However, there are lazy people in this world and those not of the measure twice cut once school of thought. So it happens. If I was a judge and you gave me information and crap liked that happened....its gonn be a bitch on the next warrant.

However if they tear crap up they need to fix it in a hurry. If somebody gets hurt then they need to pay for that too. Because some bureacrat that sits in an office dont want to take the fall. I really dont like to mess with lawyers unless that is the last resort. If the agency is responsive to fixing whetever they broke ASAP and taking care of the bills for any injury it may not make it to civil court for a lot of folks.

However some agencies want to try and say its not my fault and cover up stuff and put the people off with bull[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] answers. Enough of this and folks just skip going to the agency and can easily find a lawyer to take the case.

The good agencies pay for the bad agencies and bad law enforcment officers..

[SamD]

The point is that these things still happen, and the potential for unnecessary deaths is way too high to allow for even the smallest mistake.

Gonna be a bitch on getting your next warrant?
That fellow should not be in a position to ever see a judge again except to be sentenced, let alone allowed to continue serving.

They should be held CRIMINALLY liable for such actions.

If the 'mistakes' can't be prevented then the actions need to cease.
As far as I am concerned it is already too easy to get a writ, no knocks are beyond the pale. There is always some other way to do the job, a bit more planning, spend some time waiting it out or setting up the operation tp positively prevent these 'accidents' and some brains used instead of brawn. Grandstanders egos and politics get involved way much, to the detriment of public safety.

Sam

[darkeye]

Ah... the American culture... If somebody wrongs me, I want at least $1 million.

IMO... Mistakes happen - Just be thankful that nobody was shot! As long as they pay for any damages that were made, and a formal apology etc.... I'd be OK

If someone (BG or GG) threw a flash bang into my house....

1: I would probably be too disoriented to try to defend myself before they busted the door down.
2: If I did get myself and family to our "safe room" I'd be yelling and screaming "Who the hell are you, and what do you want? I WILL shoot you if you don't respond!"
3: Hope to GOD that there is communication and not a lot of BANG BANG BANG!

Oh, and one more thing... What the %#& is a vacuum hose going to do!!!!

[BatmanX]

"Who the hell are you, and what do you want? I WILL shoot you if you don't respond!"

That is the WORST thing you can yell, from a self defense/legal stand point. Just MHO.

[Duxman]

This is a tough one.

Have not heard of any BGs in our area that have the MO of raiding houses shouting police yet. So if a bunch of men in black with automatic weapons and shotguns burst into my home yelling police get down....I would probably cooperate peacefully and sort things out.

Now if they break my door, and damage a whole bunch of stuff, I would expect to be paid replacement value for that sort of thing. If my SO were hurt or I was physically hurt because of strongarm tactics, then we would have a possible lawsuit.

Now if I start reading news reports of BG's breaking down doors yelling police then robbing or killing occupants, then this would be a more complex situation on how to react to such an event.

Thankfully, we live in a very peaceful, almost crime free neighborhood. Not rich enough for the drug dealers to move into. Mainly families with kids and dogs.

[darkeye]

That is the WORST thing you can yell, from a self defense/legal stand point. Just MHO.

BatmanX: I respect all opinions - what would you yell? If you think this is wrong, please advise me on what you would yell?

My intentent is this:
1: Find out if friend or foe (Police or BG)
2: Warn that I am armed, and will shoot a BG

Maybe I'm wrong - I've never been in this situation - hopefully never will...

Thanks!

[BatmanX]

BatmanX: I respect all opinions - what would you yell? If you think this is wrong, please advise me on what you would yell?

If it is SWAT:
1. You have made a direct threat that you will shoot an officer
2. They are now thinking you are someone they are looking for AND you are ready to shoot - although you may not be the one they are looking for.
3. Now the pressure and adreniline is running in you AND them (even more)for a tense situation

If it is BG:
1. If you do end up shooting him, and other people heard you yell, (and heard it from another house, etc) in a threatening manner, and THEN shots go off. It wasn't self defense says the PA, "He was looking to use his weapon and didn't use restraint when he fired the shots". (This may depend on state you are in)
2. Never give away your INTENT. You WANT to shoot, but don't tell them that, and sure as hell don't yell it so everyone can hear it, espically if you have dispatch on the line! Can be used against you. What is best? - "I AM AFRAID, PLEASE GO AWAY!"......BOOM!
3. You just told the BG where you are and now have 0 time to get on the phone with PD.
4. You lose all surprise attack - previous, he did NOT know you were armed.

I am sure there are other reasons for both situations, these are the ones I am aware of. The Carry Instructor spent A LOT of time talking about these types of situations. We talked about in home defense and John Doe, and in home defense as carry permit holder. (Amongst many other situations)

I am speaking from the State of MN, where I have no right to shoot someone in my home unless cornered. In any case, I wouldn't yell that in any state. I don't need some civil lawsuit or jerk-off PA that thinks I was intentionally trying to injure someone even though it is MY HOUSE AND I AM UNDER ATTACK.

Sorry. No harm intended to poster.

I digress.

[Mannlicher]

There are usually better alternatives than 'no knock' warrents. Many times the police could just step up to a guy on the street, and take him right down. Accosting some in the middle of the night just invites a killing. Maybe thats why the police do this so often?

[Edward429451]

Well, when SWAT's kickin in the door, you only have two options. 100% compliance or 100% resistance. If you're positive (?) its the police, obviously the best chance for survival you have is 100% compliance. If you're positive (?) it BG's your best chance for survival is 100% resistance.

Let's hope the police would positively identify thamselves before entering. Nobody would want to shoot a cop who just had a wrong address and I think no cop would want to shoot an innocent.

Solution? Oh boy. Uh, how about, the more dangerous the criminal is expected to be, the more time should be taken to surveil the house to be sure? If its a drug den then surveiling the house makes even more sense and would yield proof quickly by patterning high traffic by druggie types. Sounds good on paper but I'm no cop or druggie/criminal so may in fact be missing something in how the reality of it is when it falls into a cops lap to 'go'. I think cops may get anxious to get their man and as a result, sometimes go on invalid info from snitches or simply jump the gun before all facts are verified. I can see wanting to go grab the guy real quick & get it over with, but it sometimes creates the problem you describe. A little patience and double/triple checks would go far to reducing the amount of mistakes made.

If a mistake is made and they go in and cause damage (assuming propertty damage only), I think they should reasonably compensate the people from the victims assistance fund (?) and put em on the local evening news accepting an apology for the mistake. Sometimes if not all details of the mistake are erased and could pop up in a negative way in the innocents future and cause collateral damage in the innocents lives through job rejection and financial denial etc., and they could get a copy of the tape of the newscast of them receiving the apology from the dept and save their situation. The publisized apology may go far in reducing animosity towards the police and encouraging better relations & image for the police in general. Thats my best guess.

[Capt. Charlie]

What? Do I have to shout it? OK, I will! SOMETIMES, YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO COLLECT GOOD INTEL!!! Case in point: Last summer. Execution style murder of a 17 yr. old by out of town gang members known not-so-affectionately as the "Chicago Boys". They swore they were going to take over the local drug trade by killing off the competition, and they tried. Our detectives (who did one hell of a good job, by the way) got information from a CI that the suspects fled town and were currently in a motel in Columbus, OH. Info was being fed minute by minute, and relayed to me while I was on the phone to Columbus SWAT. While they were enroute, I kept the SWAT commander on his cell phone and gave him constant updates. When they were still 4 blocks away, the CI relayed that the suspects were getting edgy, and were going to leave the motel. I gave the info to SWAT and suggested that they step it up. They pulled in quickly and hit the door just as the BG's were about to walk out. Both are currently serving life. I'll say it again! SOMETIMES, IT'S ABOUT THE REAL WORLD, AND YOU DON'T HAVE TIME!

[USP45usp]

Mistakes kill.

What do you say to the person that you've just killed and then just realized that you hit the wrong house, hotel room, etc... Sorry? Sorry doesn't cut it and they shouldn't get away with it (the LEO's or the Feds).

Not to be the one that starts this on the path that you believe that it will go down but a mistake that takes an innocent human life is not worth making. You and others may think so but I don't. I'm as conservative as they come but I don't think that taking a life and then it being an oops is a good enough reason.

LEO's want to go home at night, so do those that they make the oops upon. LEO's want to spend time with their family, so do the ones that they make the oops upon. LEO's wish to live, so do those that they make an oops on.

In their zeal to make an arrest, and getting away with making mistakes, I don't consider that acceptable. If they would get off our backs and allow the people to protect themselves and to help in the fight of crime, maybe so many mistakes wouldn't be made and the world would be a better place.

No, any mistake that takes an American life who is innocent of any crime, is unacceptable, PERIOD!.

Wayne

[Edward429451]

Whoa capt charlie, are you saying that in an effort to stop one druggie from killing another druggie, that collateral damage to innocents is acceptable? Thats the real world? Uh, ok.

[Walter]

What do you say to the person that you've just killed and then just realized that you hit the wrong house, hotel room, etc... Sorry? Sorry doesn't cut it and they shouldn't get away with it (the LEO's or the Feds).

There it is, and that's the bottom line for me. I support any and all law enforcement agencies, until they kill innocent people. "Mistake?" No
excuse. Criminal charges should be filed against ANY LEO who kills an
innocent person "by mistake".

I can hear the police unions crying now, "That would drive out many good
cops, and would hamper our recruiting, if that were the law." Good.
Maybe the quality of officers would improve so that there would be no more killing of "wrong" people.

I've heard it said many times that law enforcement officers are held to a "higher standard" than the average citizen. They should be. And that
"immunity" law should be abolished. ANYBODY who wrongfully takes a
life should be held accountable.

Basically I would not want an honest mistake to hinder the police in the future...

A mistake by an LEO that kills an innocent person
is not a mistake. It is a crime. It should be treated as a crime.

Walter

[Capt. Charlie]

Whoa capt charlie, are you saying that in an effort to stop one druggie from killing another druggie, that collateral damage to innocents is acceptable? Thats the real world? Uh, ok.

I absolutely, positively am NOT saying that! The LAST thing ANY peace officer wants is to take a human life, let alone an innocent one! That is why we train, train, and train again! My comment was directed at those that think everything always goes according to Hoyle, and that you should always do surveillance, take photos, etc. That's right and great in a perfect world, but it doesn't always work that way, as I think my post showed pretty well.

And Walter...

A mistake by an LEO that kills an innocent person
is not a mistake. It is a crime. It should be treated as a crime.

What about the cop that answers a call to a burglary in progress, and while checking a poorly lighted room, sees a person pointing a gun at him? He shoots, only to find it was a 14 yr. old boy pointing a cap gun. The boy was killed. The cop later tried to take his own life over it. True story. VERY tragic ending for everybody. But let's put you in this cop's place and see what you'd do? I wonder if you'd go placidly to prison over it saying "Gee, I got what I deserved". I think not.

[Edward429451]

I'll buy that. I wasn't able to hear that from the tone of your first post, but you reworded it pretty good.