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July 25, 2012, 11:15 PM | #51 | |
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The fact that I have a pistol that is capable of making head shots at 50 yards, is absolutely no evidence at all that I will able to make a head shot at 3 yards in a gunfight using that pistol.
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July 26, 2012, 01:01 AM | #52 |
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Especially while an armored, and likely well armed opponent is shooting at you or others.
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July 26, 2012, 07:16 AM | #53 |
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I'm struggling to find the video but I believe most of the 5.7 loads from elite ammunition will go through everything except a trauma plate. They're commercial ammo no AP.
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July 26, 2012, 08:06 AM | #54 | |
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That compact Cougar may have just moved to the top of my wish list.
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July 26, 2012, 08:23 AM | #55 |
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Every pistol I've ever owned, except for one or two, were sufficiently accurate out to 25 yards (maximum distance at the range) to keep hits on a three-inch square. The caliber and size of the handgun made no difference. They were all capable of more accuracy than I was capable of holding off-hand. Naturally group size isn't all it takes. You have to keep the hits on the center of the target, so some sight adjustments might be called for.
To elaborate, some were easier to use than others (easier to make hits with, that is), but again, there was no real correlation between the size of the gun or the caliber and how hard it was to make the hits. Some pistols were difficult to get off a quick second shot with, but that's a different issue. Of course, one person's "pocket pistol" is another person's service handgun.
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July 26, 2012, 08:52 AM | #56 |
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If handgun bullets could go through body armor, then the bullets would be illegal or the body armor would be improved. And even if there was a good armor piercing round made for civilians, it would be horrible against unarmored threats.
Now, if someone is using home made armor out of just regular steel plate then almost anything should go through it. I have a spinning 3/8ths thick steel target that's ratted for a .44 Magnum. A 33-30 put a hole in it with regular Federal 150 grain soft points at 80 yards. I can only imagine what a .243 would do. But unless someone is an idiot and thinks they can put regular steel plate, this probably would do nothing more than bruise someone with real armor. |
July 26, 2012, 10:36 AM | #57 |
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So has anyone seen or heard of effective training other than the Mozambique drill we already talked about? You would think it was looked into by LE after the California shooting.
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July 26, 2012, 12:38 PM | #58 | ||
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I assume that by the "California shooting," you mean BofA North Hollywood Bank Robbery. There strategy was to shoot the suspects in the head which was a failure for most of their 800 rounds as nobody could hit the suspects in the head, except the suspect. The next notion was a change of platform to rifles and even then the practice was to shoot the guy in the legs. Quote:
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July 26, 2012, 01:01 PM | #59 |
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The 7.62 tokarev (7.62x25) cuts through anything with surplus ammo. Cheap and effective corrosive ammo though.
Commercial ammo doesn't cut through like the surplus but still hits like a mac truck filled with hammers. Found this out after knocking a hole in my reactive steel target, ao im guessing 1/4 steel > kevlar. |
July 26, 2012, 05:16 PM | #60 |
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Depends on what level of armor the person is wearing. If they are wearing Level IV or Level V then you better start shooting at extremities or CNS. Here is a good chart on what Level body armor will stop what caliber rounds. http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-ar...llistic-chart/
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July 26, 2012, 06:01 PM | #61 |
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It is my understanding that there are two factors which primarily account for handgun bullets penetrating soft body armor; velocity and bullet configuration.
The higher the velocity the more likely the bullet will shear the fibers which make up the soft body armor. By bullet configuration I encompass two factors: one, the three dimensional shape, (pointy is better at putting a cutting point into the fibers which allow the rest of the bullet to follow); and two, hardness of the bullet material. A pure copper bullet with a conical point driven at 1500 fps (regardless of caliber) is likely to defeat a Class IIIA vest.
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July 26, 2012, 07:23 PM | #62 |
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I'm fairly sure the of the answer to this, but I'll ask anyway. Are steel core, or AP bullets as components available? If they are is it illegal to manufacture rounds from them? Alternately would it be feasible to design a mold for a 7.62 mm bullet intended to be used in the pistol round that was pointed and cast it in hard lead or copper? I am completely ignorant of everything having to do with hand loading so these ideas may be in left field. 800 rounds from trained LE, most of them aimed at the head, all were ineffective, scary. I would assume that they would be better than I am in a shoot out. Maybe practicing praying under pressure as well as marksmanship would be a good idea.
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July 26, 2012, 07:44 PM | #63 |
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The thing is, do you really want to load your carry weapon with something that's effective against body armor but no better than FMJ against better than 99% of the threats you are likely to encounter?
I continue to carry LSWCHP or JHP with no additional worries.
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July 26, 2012, 09:23 PM | #64 |
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After all this I'm probably going to end up carrying a tokarev. I would see the specialty rounds as something carried in a third extra magazine, my last ditch ammo, probabably kept in a different spot so it's not confused with the others. Normal SD rounds in the other magazines.
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July 26, 2012, 10:29 PM | #65 | |
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July 26, 2012, 11:00 PM | #66 | |
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July 26, 2012, 11:06 PM | #67 | |
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July 27, 2012, 07:25 AM | #68 |
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Couple of points that have to be made.
1. Just because the round goes through the vest don't expect the bad guy to go down. A Tokarev will penetrate a Level II vest, but after it has gone through the vest it will only penetrate 4.6 inches of ballistic gel. If your shot penetrates the vest, and then hits the sternum or a rib you are not going to do much damage. http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1242.htm 2. You are FAR more likely to encounter an unarmored bad guy than a bad guy wearing armor. Against an unarmored bad guy, FMJ rounds from a Tokarev or a .357 Sig will be far less effective than JHP rounds from a 9mm, .40, .45 or any other major pistol caliber. Is it really worth carrying ammo that is less effective against 99% of bad guys on the off chance you might run into the 1% of bad guys who are wearing armor? |
July 27, 2012, 09:12 AM | #69 | |||
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This statement from your instructor's manual struck me as humorous, although I know it wasn't meant that way: Quote:
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July 27, 2012, 09:56 AM | #70 | |
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July 27, 2012, 10:38 AM | #71 | ||
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So if you are playing the odds game, it makes it hard to carry a gun in general. I haven't needed to defend myself with a firearm in 30 years, LOL, and certainly haven't in the last 13 of carrying regularly. You see, your premise statement is just plain wrong. FMJ from the TOK or .357 Sig will be as effective as JHP from the calibers that you mentioned. In fact, .22 lr will. No, check that, a completely unloaded gun well. It would iseem that over 90% of Kleck's defensive gun uses each day are with guns never fired 6800, not that we even know that they are even necessarily legal acts of brandishing and such. So day in and day out, we aren't likely to need a gun and day in and day out, should we happen to need one one the very rare occasion than there is a 90% chance or more that we won't even bother with discharging it. Never mind then getting into the number of rounds that actually hit the bad guys, but we know it is far from 100%. So you think folks need to pick ammo based on the type of situation where they will be shooting and hitting bad guys. I have to agree with you. That is a valid way to assess what you should be shooting. If you have to shoot somebody and the bullets will be hitting that person, you want them to be the most effective possible. That is what you are saying and I agree 100%. I just can't fathom how I can make a decision very will on something happening in such an incredibly small percentage of my life. We aren't even talking about a whole day in my life because when I am at home, I have a rifle and so that actually then reduces the chances of needing my handgun by at leat half to 2/3 again as I have rifle access that amount of the time. Quote:
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July 27, 2012, 10:43 AM | #72 |
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Dragline,Stevelyn, they do have JHP rounds for 7.62x25. If you guys have heard these are ineffective in some way let me know, my minds not set in stone.
From what I've seen of the tokarev it is a (relatively) thin pistol that shouldn't be that hard or uncomfortable to conceal. It has 8+1 capacity and a round with some interesting qualities. It's simple, so it should be easy to learn. I've heard repeated raves about it's accuracy, and I can practice with cheap surplus ammo. It seems like a step up from my j-frame in pretty much every way. The fact that I might be able to craft rounds effective against body armor if we see a bunch of copy cats from this guy is a bonus.
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July 27, 2012, 11:16 PM | #73 |
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Scrubcedar
I personally have no experience shooting the Tokarev pistol or the round. So I'm not sure what is available for bullets. In my formative years while marching in the legions, they were commie guns and looked down upon as being the unrefined arms of our enemies. Because they were commie guns for so long, there hasn't been enough use of them to really establish any kind of track record for their use in the US as defensive pistols. When we became friends with the Russkies, I never got the opportunity to snatch one up and start playing with it. I am interested in obtaining a CZ version of it one of these days, but it's not on my priority list. You might want to take a look at the .327 Federal though. Looking at the numbers on it, it would appear that it has the same potential that you are looking for or better and one those is on my prioity list.
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July 28, 2012, 08:50 PM | #74 |
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Thanks stevelyn, I'll look into it.
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July 28, 2012, 09:45 PM | #75 |
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Re: 7.62x25
The cheap surplus ammo is not cheap anymore. It doubled in price last year, although it's come back down a little. The reason the round works so well against soft armor is the bullets are small diameter and steel-jacketed.
I'd like to pull some of the bullets and load them in .30 Carbine, which is a much hotter round, just to see what they'd do from a Blackhawk or Automag III. Now I need to go check some cheap steel-cased Commie .30 Carbine ammo and see if any has magnetic bullets... If so, that's the way to go.
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