The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 25, 2012, 11:15 PM   #51
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,929
Quote:
This sounds like most service pistols are capable of the accuracy needed.
Out to 15-20 yards, this is true of most pistols. It's not terribly uncommon to find pistols that are capable of head shot accuracy out to 50 yards and beyond. However, the accuracy of a pistol, is very rarely the long pole in the tent, so to speak. That's true even at the range, when conditions are ideal.

The fact that I have a pistol that is capable of making head shots at 50 yards, is absolutely no evidence at all that I will able to make a head shot at 3 yards in a gunfight using that pistol.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 01:01 AM   #52
scrubcedar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2012
Location: Southwestern Colorado
Posts: 507
Especially while an armored, and likely well armed opponent is shooting at you or others.
__________________
Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado
scrubcedar is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 07:16 AM   #53
Coach Z
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2011
Location: RI
Posts: 795
I'm struggling to find the video but I believe most of the 5.7 loads from elite ammunition will go through everything except a trauma plate. They're commercial ammo no AP.
Coach Z is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 08:06 AM   #54
pgdion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2010
Location: MPLS, MN
Posts: 1,214
Quote:
Stevelyn,This sounds like most service pistols are capable of the accuracy needed.
Good point, so does this call into question the role of the 'pocket pistol then? I've often thought of downsizing but it makes me wonder, perhaps something about the size of my Cougar is about is small as you'd want to go?

That compact Cougar may have just moved to the top of my wish list.
__________________
597 VTR, because there's so many cans and so little time!
pgdion is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 08:23 AM   #55
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
Every pistol I've ever owned, except for one or two, were sufficiently accurate out to 25 yards (maximum distance at the range) to keep hits on a three-inch square. The caliber and size of the handgun made no difference. They were all capable of more accuracy than I was capable of holding off-hand. Naturally group size isn't all it takes. You have to keep the hits on the center of the target, so some sight adjustments might be called for.

To elaborate, some were easier to use than others (easier to make hits with, that is), but again, there was no real correlation between the size of the gun or the caliber and how hard it was to make the hits. Some pistols were difficult to get off a quick second shot with, but that's a different issue.

Of course, one person's "pocket pistol" is another person's service handgun.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 08:52 AM   #56
WV_gunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2011
Location: WV
Posts: 938
If handgun bullets could go through body armor, then the bullets would be illegal or the body armor would be improved. And even if there was a good armor piercing round made for civilians, it would be horrible against unarmored threats.

Now, if someone is using home made armor out of just regular steel plate then almost anything should go through it. I have a spinning 3/8ths thick steel target that's ratted for a .44 Magnum. A 33-30 put a hole in it with regular Federal 150 grain soft points at 80 yards. I can only imagine what a .243 would do. But unless someone is an idiot and thinks they can put regular steel plate, this probably would do nothing more than bruise someone with real armor.
WV_gunner is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 10:36 AM   #57
scrubcedar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2012
Location: Southwestern Colorado
Posts: 507
So has anyone seen or heard of effective training other than the Mozambique drill we already talked about? You would think it was looked into by LE after the California shooting.
__________________
Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado
scrubcedar is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 12:38 PM   #58
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
Quote:
So has anyone seen or heard of effective training other than the Mozambique drill we already talked about? You would think it was looked into by LE after the California shooting.
Well there are a variety of drills people learn in training. Not all would work here, such as shooting until the threat stops...which doesn't work if the threat is well protected with armor.

I assume that by the "California shooting," you mean BofA North Hollywood Bank Robbery. There strategy was to shoot the suspects in the head which was a failure for most of their 800 rounds as nobody could hit the suspects in the head, except the suspect. The next notion was a change of platform to rifles and even then the practice was to shoot the guy in the legs.

Quote:
If handgun bullets could go through body armor, then the bullets would be illegal
There is no such law. The law does not mandate what the bullet can or cannot go through, but how it is constructed. In most legal aspects of armor, armor is "hard" armor. As noted, a 500 S&W will go through body armor just fine, soft armor, no problem.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 01:01 PM   #59
762x54
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2012
Posts: 6
The 7.62 tokarev (7.62x25) cuts through anything with surplus ammo. Cheap and effective corrosive ammo though.

Commercial ammo doesn't cut through like the surplus but still hits like a mac truck filled with hammers.

Found this out after knocking a hole in my reactive steel target, ao im guessing 1/4 steel > kevlar.
762x54 is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 05:16 PM   #60
jeepman4804
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2008
Posts: 216
Depends on what level of armor the person is wearing. If they are wearing Level IV or Level V then you better start shooting at extremities or CNS. Here is a good chart on what Level body armor will stop what caliber rounds. http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-ar...llistic-chart/
jeepman4804 is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 06:01 PM   #61
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
It is my understanding that there are two factors which primarily account for handgun bullets penetrating soft body armor; velocity and bullet configuration.

The higher the velocity the more likely the bullet will shear the fibers which make up the soft body armor.

By bullet configuration I encompass two factors: one, the three dimensional shape, (pointy is better at putting a cutting point into the fibers which allow the rest of the bullet to follow); and two, hardness of the bullet material. A pure copper bullet with a conical point driven at 1500 fps (regardless of caliber) is likely to defeat a Class IIIA vest.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 07:23 PM   #62
scrubcedar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2012
Location: Southwestern Colorado
Posts: 507
I'm fairly sure the of the answer to this, but I'll ask anyway. Are steel core, or AP bullets as components available? If they are is it illegal to manufacture rounds from them? Alternately would it be feasible to design a mold for a 7.62 mm bullet intended to be used in the pistol round that was pointed and cast it in hard lead or copper? I am completely ignorant of everything having to do with hand loading so these ideas may be in left field. 800 rounds from trained LE, most of them aimed at the head, all were ineffective, scary. I would assume that they would be better than I am in a shoot out. Maybe practicing praying under pressure as well as marksmanship would be a good idea.
__________________
Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado
scrubcedar is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 07:44 PM   #63
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,196
The thing is, do you really want to load your carry weapon with something that's effective against body armor but no better than FMJ against better than 99% of the threats you are likely to encounter?

I continue to carry LSWCHP or JHP with no additional worries.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 09:23 PM   #64
scrubcedar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2012
Location: Southwestern Colorado
Posts: 507
After all this I'm probably going to end up carrying a tokarev. I would see the specialty rounds as something carried in a third extra magazine, my last ditch ammo, probabably kept in a different spot so it's not confused with the others. Normal SD rounds in the other magazines.
__________________
Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado
scrubcedar is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 10:29 PM   #65
Dragline45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2010
Posts: 3,513
Quote:
It's not terribly uncommon to find pistols that are capable of head shot accuracy out to 50 yards and beyond. However, the accuracy of a pistol, is very rarely the long pole in the tent, so to speak. That's true even at the range, when conditions are ideal.
I can consistently hit my 5 inch steel plate at 50 yards with my 22/45, probably due to the countless bricks I have put through the gun. Although with my SR9C I only hit it maybe 1/3 of the time. If only my 22/45 was a viable choice for a SD gun.
Dragline45 is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 11:00 PM   #66
stevelyn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: Fairbanksan in exile to Aleutian Hell
Posts: 2,655
Quote:
After all this I'm probably going to end up carrying a tokarev. I would see the specialty rounds as something carried in a third extra magazine, my last ditch ammo, probabably kept in a different spot so it's not confused with the others. Normal SD rounds in the other magazines.
There really isn't a need to do that. The chances of you encountering an armored assailant are pretty slim. Even if you do, you can identify it early on and make adjustments in your response as needed.
__________________
Stop Allowing Our Schools To Be Soft Targets!
http://fastersaveslives.org/

East Moose. Wear Wolf.
stevelyn is offline  
Old July 26, 2012, 11:06 PM   #67
Stukaman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2010
Posts: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by idek View Post
I'll just chime in about the question of breaking ribs. there's a video or two out there of a guy in body armor voluntarily being shot by a high powered rifle at a distance of a few feet. He stands on one foot as he's shot and doesn't even lose his balance.

Maybe it'd be different with a big .44 slug, but I doubt you could count on breaking bones or knocking him off his feet. If it doesn't penetrate, it may leave a bruise, but I wouldn't expect much more than that.
A rifle cartridge is still more powerful than a .44 mag. A rifle is a rifle and a pistol is a pistol regardless of whether you chamber the .44mag in a rifle it's still a pistol cartridge. 30-30 is more powerful than a .44mag in a rifle.
Stukaman is offline  
Old July 27, 2012, 07:25 AM   #68
Falcon642
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 2010
Posts: 316
Couple of points that have to be made.

1. Just because the round goes through the vest don't expect the bad guy to go down.

A Tokarev will penetrate a Level II vest, but after it has gone through the vest it will only penetrate 4.6 inches of ballistic gel. If your shot penetrates the vest, and then hits the sternum or a rib you are not going to do much damage.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1242.htm

2. You are FAR more likely to encounter an unarmored bad guy than a bad guy wearing armor. Against an unarmored bad guy, FMJ rounds from a Tokarev or a .357 Sig will be far less effective than JHP rounds from a 9mm, .40, .45 or any other major pistol caliber.

Is it really worth carrying ammo that is less effective against 99% of bad guys on the off chance you might run into the 1% of bad guys who are wearing armor?
Falcon642 is offline  
Old July 27, 2012, 09:12 AM   #69
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevelyn
Straight from my instructor's manual as taught by the Alaska DPS Academy where 80% of police officers statewide and all the Troopers are trained:

Quote:
"Fail-To-Stop Drill- (Plan B) After hitting the assailant with a pair to the upper chest, minimum standard response to lethal threat(italics mine) you should quickly evaluate whether the shots were effective. If they were not effective, you should change plans and determine if a head shot is available. If the head is still there and you have a high probability of hitting it, you should deliver one shot to the head. Remember, the head is a difficult target to hit due to its small size and ability to turn rapidly."
So.........Two shots, assess......one to the head if the action hasn't stopped. I think in reality everyone will repeat as necessary.

It goes on to say in the next paragragh it should stop the fight if accurate, but a miss is a danger to bystanders (duh) and should not be attempted beyond 5 yards unless you are confident of making a hit.

However, in my experience due to the nature of qualifications being timed they deliver all three shots as fast as they can. The qual doesn't have an assess feature built into it. In training though I do teach 2 shots, assess, head
I encounter faux Mozambiques in competition, too, and obviously when less time is the name of the game there is no "assess" feature built into it.

This statement from your instructor's manual struck me as humorous, although I know it wasn't meant that way:

Quote:
"Fail-To-Stop Drill- (Plan B) After hitting the assailant with a pair to the upper chest, minimum standard response to lethal threat(italics mine) you should quickly evaluate whether the shots were effective. If they were not effective, you should change plans and determine if a head shot is available. If the head is still there and you have a high probability of hitting it, you should deliver one shot to the head. Remember, the head is a difficult target to hit due to its small size and ability to turn rapidly."
"If the head is still there"? Where would it have gone?
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old July 27, 2012, 09:56 AM   #70
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
Quote:
So has anyone seen or heard of effective training other than the Mozambique drill we already talked about? You would think it was looked into by LE after the California shooting.
That was a watershed moment in LE, the Patrol Carbine has almost totally replaced the shotgun in Police cars, although slugs would have done a number.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old July 27, 2012, 10:38 AM   #71
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
Quote:
2. You are FAR more likely to encounter an unarmored bad guy than a bad guy wearing armor. Against an unarmored bad guy, FMJ rounds from a Tokarev or a .357 Sig will be far less effective than JHP rounds from a 9mm, .40, .45 or any other major pistol caliber.

Is it really worth carrying ammo that is less effective against 99% of bad guys on the off chance you might run into the 1% of bad guys who are wearing armor?
When I started carrying, it was 0.1% Odds have increased by 10 times, but depending on the year, the odds of actually encountering a bad guy may have gone down in general. What are the odds I will run into an armed bad guy at all today?

So if you are playing the odds game, it makes it hard to carry a gun in general. I haven't needed to defend myself with a firearm in 30 years, LOL, and certainly haven't in the last 13 of carrying regularly.

You see, your premise statement is just plain wrong. FMJ from the TOK or .357 Sig will be as effective as JHP from the calibers that you mentioned. In fact, .22 lr will. No, check that, a completely unloaded gun well. It would iseem that over 90% of Kleck's defensive gun uses each day are with guns never fired 6800, not that we even know that they are even necessarily legal acts of brandishing and such. So day in and day out, we aren't likely to need a gun and day in and day out, should we happen to need one one the very rare occasion than there is a 90% chance or more that we won't even bother with discharging it. Never mind then getting into the number of rounds that actually hit the bad guys, but we know it is far from 100%.

So you think folks need to pick ammo based on the type of situation where they will be shooting and hitting bad guys. I have to agree with you. That is a valid way to assess what you should be shooting. If you have to shoot somebody and the bullets will be hitting that person, you want them to be the most effective possible. That is what you are saying and I agree 100%. I just can't fathom how I can make a decision very will on something happening in such an incredibly small percentage of my life. We aren't even talking about a whole day in my life because when I am at home, I have a rifle and so that actually then reduces the chances of needing my handgun by at leat half to 2/3 again as I have rifle access that amount of the time.

Quote:
"If the head is still there"? Where would it have gone?
I think this is again one of those percentage things where they manual is trying to cover things by the percentages. Apparently based on credible reports from officers shooting with bad guys, there is a high enough percentage of the time where they have reported being in such gun fights where the bad guy's head ceases to be present in the conflict whereby the body is still engaging the officers. As such, no improper instruction wants to be give to officers apt to find themselves in such a situation. They do not want officers shooting a location where the head was and should have been, but is a location where the head remains no longer. The wording was obviously poor. To handle such situations where the head is gone but the body remains firing at the officer, the officer should be instructed to simply engage the threat that is visible or of a known location. Engaging threats or portions of threats of unknown locations is not advised.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

Last edited by Double Naught Spy; July 28, 2012 at 09:40 AM.
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old July 27, 2012, 10:43 AM   #72
scrubcedar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2012
Location: Southwestern Colorado
Posts: 507
Dragline,Stevelyn, they do have JHP rounds for 7.62x25. If you guys have heard these are ineffective in some way let me know, my minds not set in stone.
From what I've seen of the tokarev it is a (relatively) thin pistol that shouldn't be that hard or uncomfortable to conceal. It has 8+1 capacity and a round with some interesting qualities.
It's simple, so it should be easy to learn. I've heard repeated raves about it's accuracy, and I can practice with cheap surplus ammo. It seems like a step up from my j-frame in pretty much every way. The fact that I might be able to craft rounds effective against body armor if we see a bunch of copy cats from this guy is a bonus.
__________________
Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado
scrubcedar is offline  
Old July 27, 2012, 11:16 PM   #73
stevelyn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: Fairbanksan in exile to Aleutian Hell
Posts: 2,655
Scrubcedar

I personally have no experience shooting the Tokarev pistol or the round. So I'm not sure what is available for bullets. In my formative years while marching in the legions, they were commie guns and looked down upon as being the unrefined arms of our enemies.

Because they were commie guns for so long, there hasn't been enough use of them to really establish any kind of track record for their use in the US as defensive pistols.

When we became friends with the Russkies, I never got the opportunity to snatch one up and start playing with it. I am interested in obtaining a CZ version of it one of these days, but it's not on my priority list.

You might want to take a look at the .327 Federal though. Looking at the numbers on it, it would appear that it has the same potential that you are looking for or better and one those is on my prioity list.
__________________
Stop Allowing Our Schools To Be Soft Targets!
http://fastersaveslives.org/

East Moose. Wear Wolf.
stevelyn is offline  
Old July 28, 2012, 08:50 PM   #74
scrubcedar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2012
Location: Southwestern Colorado
Posts: 507
Thanks stevelyn, I'll look into it.
__________________
Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado
scrubcedar is offline  
Old July 28, 2012, 09:45 PM   #75
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,720
Re: 7.62x25

The cheap surplus ammo is not cheap anymore. It doubled in price last year, although it's come back down a little. The reason the round works so well against soft armor is the bullets are small diameter and steel-jacketed.

I'd like to pull some of the bullets and load them in .30 Carbine, which is a much hotter round, just to see what they'd do from a Blackhawk or Automag III.

Now I need to go check some cheap steel-cased Commie .30 Carbine ammo and see if any has magnetic bullets... If so, that's the way to go.
__________________
"Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth
zxcvbob is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11873 seconds with 8 queries