BAD situation today

[Sir William]

I had a STRESSFUL day. I took my 80 y/o mother out for lunch at a coffee shop. We were working the daily crossword puzzle. Five pre-teens entered and basically raised as much cain as possible. They were rude, crude and lewd in manner, actions and using profane language. A couple of the group opened a fire exit door setting off the alarm, a second later they were stealing silverware off of the counter and then cursed at the shop manager. An off duty grill cook then told the group of 5 to leave and escorted them to the front door. At my back as they were leaving, one idiot says; "I have a gun!" He then stuck his hand inside his baggy pants! I was with my mother and didn't want to get involved in the incident as I was armed legally. I was shocked to see the manager calling the owner on his cellphone INSTEAD of 911! I felt the situation was mishandled. I went back later and requested a company incident report to complain about the fear for my and my mothers' safety. NO weapon was displayed by the party of five or by me. What Would You Do?

[thatguyjosh]

shoot them all then send a letter to their parents to let them know how badly they failed at raising their kids.

[BobK]

You were correct in minding your own business. I also would have confronted then coffee shop manager. I might have even called 911 myself. IMHO, the only mistake you made was having your back to the front door. I always sit facing the front door constantly watching it and I sit close to an emergency exit.

[Twycross]

What would I do? The same thing that you did. No physical threat shown, no counter-threat required.

[#18indycolts]

good call on your part. I might have called 911 if they (the kids) got out of hand. But, I am an advocate for not abusing the 911 system, call help if you need it. In your case you didn't (thank god), you had your piece and all ended ok. But again, I wasn't there, I'm only speaking from how I read it.

[Double Naught Spy]

An off duty grill cook then told the group of 5 to leave and escorted them to the front door. At my back as they were leaving, one idiot says; "I have a gun!" He then stuck his hand inside his baggy pants! I was with my mother and didn't want to get involved in the incident as I was armed legally. I was shocked to see the manager calling the owner on his cellphone INSTEAD of 911! I felt the situation was mishandled. I went back later and requested a company incident report to complain about the fear for my and my mothers' safety. NO weapon was displayed by the party of five or by me. What Would You Do?

You didn't want to get involved because you were armed legally and with your mother? Surely you mean that you could have gotten involved with your legally carried gun but didn't because mom was with you.

So the manager was calling the owner instead of 911. Do you think 911 would have been helpful? Sure, the sooner called the sooner help might arrive, but help would arrive long after anything happened. So regardless of who was called, your immediate safety would not have changed either way by the call.

How do you know another employee had not been instructed to call 911 from another phone?

So what wasn't handled properly? I take it you mean what happened after the gun claim? Everything before that seemed okay.

So all the hoodlums were preteens? That would give the impression of a lack of a significant threat until the comment about the gun. At that point, everything changed.

Whether or not you wanted to get your mother involved is moot. She was involved. At the time the kid claimed to have a gun and made a furtive move by putting his hand in his pants, everyone present was involved.

I was at a gun show late last year when there was an ND. I was really surprised by how all these situationally aware gun people simply stopped in their tracks and looked in the direction of the gunshot. A few folks like me ducked down, but otherwise we pretty much remained stupidly in place. If one gunshot isn't enough to get a defensive reaction out of gun folks, then I wonder what it takes for them to determine that their lives may be in peril.

So you heard the kid claim he had a gun and made a furtive move. At that time, you did not draw your own gun. Did you take your mother down to the ground, shield her, or try to get her moving in the opposite direction away from the threat? If you were truly concerned about y'all's safety, then I can't imagine why you didn't do anything to protect yourselves. You would have been in your right to draw in reaction to the threat.

No doubt the manager calling the owner did not seem prudent, but then again, taking absolutely no action to protect yourself or your mother from a threat when you had the means (move to floor behind furniture/tables, move away from threat, draw gun) to do so isn't a good response. Between you and the manager making a phone call, you were the only one in position to actually work to provide safety for your mother and yourself at that moment...and yet you filed a complaint on the manager.

So just how blatant does the threat have to be before you will actually take steps to mitigate the threat?

[BillCA]

Geez...
No doubt these little darlings have parents who will try to sue the fanny off anyone who lays a hand on their kids, no matter how badly they're behaving.

I think the more important question is what would have happened if that kid had "flashed" some kind of gun in his baggy pants. Perhaps the end result could be called "evolution in action".

[Sir William]

I was only thinking about NOT wanting to kill a child. Really. These were pre-teens, I was offended and angered by their actions and behaviour but, I kept recalling the words of the Washington mall CCWer who was shot down. I did place my hand on the butt of my Walther when the one unknown child said he had a gun. If he had begun drawing a Gamo pistol, I don't honestly KNOW? I requested that the owner of the coffee shop pull and review the video camera footage, I did obtain a incident report form and I am thinking of filing a beef against the shop manager inside it for non-action, inappropriate action and failure to provide a safe environment for the customers. I know that everybody cannot be a Marine but, poor ACTION is better than NOTHING. I will fill out the incident report form and see what occurs. It DID take selfcontrol to simply NOT crush the little maggots, pardon my french.

[RsqVet]

The only thing I would have done diffirent is reporting the gun threat to the PD via 911 as from what you describe they were probibly on foot and could be rounded up pretty easily, I don't give a dam what the mannager or cook says or wants to do, If I'm there and can hear it I'm a witnessed and I'm threatened as as well. At the very liest having that situation play out with a PD investigation of the little darlings will at liest hopefully wake up their parents, if indeed the kid does have a gun you may have saved someone's life, if it's a cap gun, BB gun or some such then you may well have saved the dumb butt kid's life.

[Nortonics]

No disrespect intended, but when I hear or read a statement like this:

If he had begun drawing a Gamo pistol, I don't honestly KNOW?

I'd suggest more training on your behalf. Anyone who carries should never be asking themselves something like this, especially in the heat of the moment - you need to know what you would do, and actually do it.

[XavierBreath]

The unknown factor bit both Brendan McKown and Sir William in the rear. These situations are difficult to prepare for, because of that factor. At the range you KNOW the appropriate response is to shoot. At worst, if you shoot inappropriately at the range, you just pierce a target.

If you shoot inappropriately in a real scenerio, you do prison time. The difference is huge. It's big enough to create self doubt where you believed there was none. How many times have you heard somebody say "I couldn't believe what I was seeing"? Acute denial is a powerful defense mechanism of our psyche. If you are not acclimated to seeing people pulling guns and blasting holes into other people, chances are you will be in disbelief for a bit if it happens near you. The best way to train against this is force on force training. Next might actually be a video game of CCWtype scenerios. Hey, if computer simulation works for cops, soldiers, and murdering thugs, why not CCW holders?

Getting back to your scenerio SW, you did fine, everyone went home. You might want to consider a carry mode that allows you to discretely have your hand on a gun while observing the actions of others. I doubt if any complaints to the managers/owners will have any effect on future behavior, but you can try if you like.

Thank goodness your mother did not go all ninja on them.

[invention_45]

00Spy:

Wow, you're rough on him.

I think I'd have tried to make sure my .45 was nice and loose in my holster in as subtle a way as possible the moment I saw the trouble, even before the gun was mentioned. That would minimize my response time and allow me to wait longer before being forced to respond.

But, had I been sitting with my back to the door, it would have to be some kind of serious threat to me before I responded.

Yes, it was a mistake to sit with your back to the door, I'll agree with that. I have a stalker, so I NEVER sit so that I am not facing the entrance to the room I'm in, particularly when I'm armed, which is now nearly always. In fact, everybody I'm friends with already knows to offer me the door-facing seat. But until you're in a real risk situation, doing otherwise could be excused. But don't do it again.

As for the cook, I don't know whether to fault him or not. But the sound of your post suggested like you gave him hell. Maybe I took your words too strongly. I'd mention to him, if it were me, in as friendly a tone as I could muster after such an event, that he may not have realized (some people don't) the danger he was in and that perhaps next time he should call 911 first, and then his boss.

About not calling 911 at all...in that situation, you're not necessarily dialing 911 to have an instant-cop pop up on the sidewalk. You're calling, in part, so that if these creeps dedice to return and shoot you, the officialdom is already aware and mobilized and you might get an EMT just a few seconds faster than if you waited till after you're shot, and that could mean living rather than dying.

In my situation, I have the police visit often. I try to be sensitive about their not wanting to waste too much time. I use the non-emergency number whenever possible. BUT...ANY time ANYONE who is taking a threatening stance says to me "I have a gun", I'm dialing 911. Show me a cop who thinks that's abusing 911.

[Sir William]

The grill cook and I talked today. His first words were to the effect of his error in going out the door. I said that was correct. The better respnse would have been to escort the 5 BGs to the door, see them out and lock the door behind them. My instinct told me to stay inside, avoid physical contact, wait for the PD and draw only if needed. I told the grill cook that his going outside took him out of my responsibility. I felt m role was to secure the coffee shop and make certain there was NO Round #2. He and I both saw the shop manager on the phone and we made an error in trusting that 911 was being called. IOWs, you can't trust that someone else will do the proper thing. He admitted feeling rather alone when he realized he was surrounded by 5 BGs in the parking lot by himself. He kept waiting for the LEOs to show up. We both made a mistake in that assumption. I am writing the incident report in such a manner as to make the company aware of their liability for protecting their customers.

[Rob P.]

I also think that some of the comments were a little too rough. Especially this part:

So you heard the kid claim he had a gun and made a furtive move. At that time, you did not draw your own gun. Did you take your mother down to the ground, shield her, or try to get her moving in the opposite direction away from the threat? If you were truly concerned about y'all's safety, then I can't imagine why you didn't do anything to protect yourselves

I believe that not calling attention to oneself is a good defensive tactic. In a restaurant where everyone is just sitting there letting these punks do their stuff, going all ninja would only give them a focus to concentrate on. Stealing silverware and setting off the fire alarm is not an imminent threat which justifies killing someone.

It wasn't until after they were outside and the "gun threat" was made that things became more complicated. At that point, sudden shielding/ducking/agressive defense movements could have actually instigated the punk into pulling the weapon he claimed he had in his pants.

Remember, we are not LEO and have no obligation to act as LEO and are actually prohibited from doing law enforcement. Once stuck in the situation, all Sir William could do was wait until either it defused itself or escalated to the point he HAD to act to protect his own life. Acting prior to that point would have been a bad tactical decision.

However, some training to help overcome the surprise factor should be on the "to-do" list. Yes, you can be caught by surprise. However, that shouldn't leave you flat footed and unable to think or act.

[2400]

I told the grill cook that his going outside took him out of my responsibility. I felt m role was to secure the coffee shop and make certain there was NO Round #2.

How did you become responsible for the coffee shop and it employees?

[Mikeyboy]

Sir William...you did fine, you were not directly threatened, but they should have called 911. ....and another thing

This is incident #3, in less than 6 months...Two shootings and one threatened with a possible gun....when are you moving????

[Ares45]

I don't understand the comment about not wanting to kill a child. 1st, a 12 year old can kill you just as dead as a 45 year old could. 2nd, It has nothing to do with killing someone else, it's about saving you and your mother's life.

[James K]

Ok, 00spy,

So you would have opened up, blazing away at the kids, spraying bullets all over the place and out the door, shooting the clerk, the cook, your mother and a dozen innocent people, and probably missing the punks who were no deadly threat anyway. All because some trash ticked you off and you think you have to prove your manhood with a gun. The punk was blowing off about having a gun, but the person who did have a gun acted correctly, not going off the deep end.

Jim

[DBOUNCE1]

kids theese days geeshe

[armedandsafe]

How did you become responsible for the coffee shop and it employees?

By deciding to be a responsible human?

Pops

[kix]

Those kids need some training out behind the wood shed.
I think you did just fine. You can not go into combat mode because of a smart ass kid.

[bruchi]

SIR WILLIAM, I am confused here, you should be telling us how you took control of the situation, after all this where just 5 restless kids and you claim on another post here that when you where on that elite team that served the "AVON" warrants at 5 am, obiously to very dangerous felons, you carried on you 7 handguns!!!

Why in the world would 5 loud teenagers be allowed to walk out scott free when someone with your background was there to put them in their place?

I ask you again, are you the same SIR WILLIAM that got expelled minutes into your first post at another forum for asking if your 22 revolver was the right weapon for your favorite pastime, shooting at cars on the freeway?

[gdeal]

Mind my own business.

[Sir William]

bruchi, I have 0 idea of what you are talking about. I am not the party you refer to as being banned. Not me. Duty and honour are one thing but, facing down five out of control juveniles is stupidity.

[kennybs plbg]

Enough for crying out loud, these were Pre-teens(10-11-12yo). Wasen't there a man or two (or even a woman) in the place responsible enough that would stand up, grab them by the collar and drag them outside one by one(pre-teens huh), what they needed was a swift boot in the butt. Chances are if someone stood up to them they would of ran like the kids they really are, nice message we're sending to our youth that we except this type of garbage.

People minding there own business and not wanting to get involved is the reason they were there to begin with. When do people start getting involved when they become teens and are set in their ways with real guns, maybe after they kill someone. Grownups (adults) in society are teachers of youth, what have you taught them with your actions. You may live in todays PC world, but I chose not too. For the last 25 years my wife has been telling me you can't do things like that anymore, my response has always been the he!! I can't watch me. Yes I've been there and done that, messages have been sent many times over the years. Most have come back full circle with friendship and respect going both ways. Isn't this the way its suppose to be.

My last thought on the subject is to even consider using a firearm at that time is shear stupidity and you probably shouldn't even be carrying to begin with.

kenny b