Any use for a virtual programmable shotgun choke?

TXAZ · August 6, 2012, 09:14 PM

Can you think of a use for a shotgun shell that can be programmed to keep the shot together for up to the first 50 yards inflight?

We came across a solution in a different problem space that would translate into the ability to keep shot together for a short period of time after it leaves the barrel.

Just curious if anyone sees any value in such a capability.

Dave McC · August 7, 2012, 05:21 AM

Sure.

Most shotgun load technology has been devoted to doing just that since the days of flint.

I see use for defense, hunting and handicap trap, for starters.

So, whatcha got?....

oneounceload · August 7, 2012, 10:59 AM

I don't know about trap or hunting birds, Dave - one would think you would want that shot string, otherwise you would be trying to hit a flying target with what amounts to a single rifle shot

Couzin · August 7, 2012, 11:53 AM

A little confusing - the title of your OP says programmable choke the you talk about a shell / wad (something) that keeps a ball of shot together out to 50 yards. The only application I see might be turkey or geese / duck long shots (steel or non-tox on them of course). The problem I would see then would be a sudden close shot where that ball of shot under 50 yards would tear up a bird pretty bad. Just what would this little gem add to the cost of a shell?

Scorch · August 7, 2012, 12:39 PM

I think it might be kind of hard to find a practical application for something like what the OP is referring to. Sure, handicap trap or self-defense might be a good application. According to most states' hunting regulations, shot has to be loose, i.e. not bound together in any way, in order to be legal for hunting birds. Unslit cup wads kind of try to accomplish what the OP is asking (in my interpretation) yet still stay within the bounds of the laws. Also oneounceload's input makes sense, most of us need the spread and stringing to be able to hit a target in flight, or air burst flak, in my case.

I will ask the same question Dave asked, whadda ya got?

zippy13 · August 7, 2012, 01:23 PM

IINM, there are military rounds, in a 12-ga shot shell form factor, that can be programmed to burst at a given distance -- mini grenades. For civilians, ammo with Federal's new Flightcontrol wads are popular with some shooters wanting maximum pattern density.

oneounceload · August 7, 2012, 02:59 PM

I wonder what might happen if you were to use two wads - one inserted normally, and then a second placed upside down over the first to encapsulate the entire payload - might it stay together longer and then finally separate?

Again, for me, I am not seeing any advantage in normal target or hunting where you are trying to hit a flying target - the reason we use shot and not a ball/slug/solid projectile, is because the success rate would be about zero

TXAZ · August 7, 2012, 08:28 PM

I don't want prejudice potential intellectual property so I'll just say in solving a problem in a different relm, it became apparent that there is a way to allow a shooter to to fire a round and control when the shot breaks apart into individual pellets. It does not involve using a forward and backwards wading cups. The release distance (out to about 50 yards) could be pre-set, or could even be determined when the trigger is pulled.

We're not sure there's a big enough market to productionizing it for the shooting world vs. focusing on other applications. Does that help?
Appreciate the input.

BigJimP · August 10, 2012, 11:56 AM

I could care less about specifically what you're developing / the proprietary stuff... But let's get real....whatever you develop will have to be "way" better than what we can do with a shotgun today ---/ we have changeable screw in chokes in our shotguns today ..making them versatile ...and a wide variety of fairly affordable shells to effectively :

a. break clays or to kill live birds...
b. hunt some big game, like deer, with slugs
c. use for Defense in tactical shotguns shooting 00 Buck...

shotshells using lead or steel pellets ...for clays or birds...are usually between $ 0.25 - $ .50 each......

shotshell using slugs ....for big game ...are about $ 2.50 - $ 3.50 each...

shotshells using OO Buck for defense...are about $ 0.50 - $ 0.60 each ...

Having an exotic choke system to extend the range for a lead pellet shell to break clays with is probably a non-starter. Most of us that shoot 10 - 25 boxes ( 25 shells each ) a week or 250 - 600 shells a week...reload our own shells. None of us are going to give up our dedicated "clays" guns ...that we paid $ 2,000 - $ 15,000 for - and whatever you come up with is going to have to not detract from the looks of our guns / not change the balance or swing characteristics of our current guns - mostly Over Unders...and since we shoot O/U's we need 2 chokes.

Many of us that shoot a lot of "clays" games ...also use the same guns to hunt upland birds with ...so same issues apply there.

Big game hunting...in most of the western states we hunt with rifles - not shotguns. I think the market is limited for big game hunting with shotguns...and I think its fair to say that most big game hunters with shotguns are using "pump guns" ...guns costing from $ 200 - $ 600 .../ the current chokes they have work just fine / there are so many deer around - that taking a shot at a deer at over 50 yds, with a shotgun, probably isn't something anyone is too interested in. In areas where you expect to take longer range shots ...at Elk, etc ....its a rifle environment / not shotguns.

Tactical shotguns...its a "Close Quarters Battle" scenario ...choke in a gun isn't really a factor. Chokes we have now work just fine with 00 Buck, slugs, etc. Assault Rifles (AR's) and sniper rifles are the preferred platforms for longer shots...not shotguns. I don't see a need or desire for a shotgun that will execute longer range shots....

Given all those issues, in my opinion mind you --- the question is, how does your proprietary system fit into that real world. I'm assuming you're going to be asking for some money for your system - any idea on costs ? Will it make our current shell options a lot cheaper ? Will it require us to give up any of our current shotguns ? What is your target market group ( clays shooters, hunters, tactical guys ) ??

Guys like me - may not be your target market group ( over 60, mostly clay target shooters, some limited bird hunting)...but a lot of guys like me collect and shoot specific guns for specific games:

I have about 25 shotguns ...in 12ga, 16ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410....
1. a couple of them are Benelli semi-autos ( 12ga, 20ga - with 28" and 30" barrels )...hunting, clays,...
2. two pump guns..Browning BPS models in 12ga and 20ga with 28" barrels ...hunting, clays...
3. the rest are all Browning O/U's or Browning break open single barrel guns..like Browning Citori BT-99's, BT-100's / XT Trap / XS Skeet ....with
30", 32" or 34" barrels... clays and hunting....

Guys like me are traditionalists....we have money to spend on our hobby / but you have to bring something to the table that is a really big deal ...or we'll just ignore it ! Can you respond to any of the issues I've raised without getting into your proprietary stuff ???

BoomieMCT · August 10, 2012, 12:41 PM

That would be great for goose or turkey hunting - assuming it isn't too expensive.

August 6, 2012, 09:14 PM	#1
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	Any use for a virtual programmable shotgun choke? Can you think of a use for a shotgun shell that can be programmed to keep the shot together for up to the first 50 yards inflight? We came across a solution in a different problem space that would translate into the ability to keep shot together for a short period of time after it leaves the barrel. Just curious if anyone sees any value in such a capability. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

August 7, 2012, 12:39 PM	#5
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	I think it might be kind of hard to find a practical application for something like what the OP is referring to. Sure, handicap trap or self-defense might be a good application. According to most states' hunting regulations, shot has to be loose, i.e. not bound together in any way, in order to be legal for hunting birds. Unslit cup wads kind of try to accomplish what the OP is asking (in my interpretation) yet still stay within the bounds of the laws. Also oneounceload's input makes sense, most of us need the spread and stringing to be able to hit a target in flight, or air burst flak, in my case. I will ask the same question Dave asked, whadda ya got? __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

August 7, 2012, 08:28 PM	#8
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	I don't want prejudice potential intellectual property so I'll just say in solving a problem in a different relm, it became apparent that there is a way to allow a shooter to to fire a round and control when the shot breaks apart into individual pellets. It does not involve using a forward and backwards wading cups. The release distance (out to about 50 yards) could be pre-set, or could even be determined when the trigger is pulled. We're not sure there's a big enough market to productionizing it for the shooting world vs. focusing on other applications. Does that help? Appreciate the input. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

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August 7, 2012, 05:21 AM	#2
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Sure. Most shotgun load technology has been devoted to doing just that since the days of flint. I see use for defense, hunting and handicap trap, for starters. So, whatcha got?....

August 7, 2012, 10:59 AM	#3
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	I don't know about trap or hunting birds, Dave - one would think you would want that shot string, otherwise you would be trying to hit a flying target with what amounts to a single rifle shot

August 7, 2012, 11:53 AM	#4
Couzin Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2006 Location: Terrell, Texas Posts: 240	A little confusing - the title of your OP says programmable choke the you talk about a shell / wad (something) that keeps a ball of shot together out to 50 yards. The only application I see might be turkey or geese / duck long shots (steel or non-tox on them of course). The problem I would see then would be a sudden close shot where that ball of shot under 50 yards would tear up a bird pretty bad. Just what would this little gem add to the cost of a shell?

August 7, 2012, 01:23 PM	#6
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	IINM, there are military rounds, in a 12-ga shot shell form factor, that can be programmed to burst at a given distance -- mini grenades. For civilians, ammo with Federal's new Flightcontrol wads are popular with some shooters wanting maximum pattern density.

August 7, 2012, 02:59 PM	#7
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	I wonder what might happen if you were to use two wads - one inserted normally, and then a second placed upside down over the first to encapsulate the entire payload - might it stay together longer and then finally separate? Again, for me, I am not seeing any advantage in normal target or hunting where you are trying to hit a flying target - the reason we use shot and not a ball/slug/solid projectile, is because the success rate would be about zero

August 10, 2012, 11:56 AM	#9
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I could care less about specifically what you're developing / the proprietary stuff... But let's get real....whatever you develop will have to be "way" better than what we can do with a shotgun today ---/ we have changeable screw in chokes in our shotguns today ..making them versatile ...and a wide variety of fairly affordable shells to effectively : a. break clays or to kill live birds... b. hunt some big game, like deer, with slugs c. use for Defense in tactical shotguns shooting 00 Buck... shotshells using lead or steel pellets ...for clays or birds...are usually between $ 0.25 - $ .50 each...... shotshell using slugs ....for big game ...are about $ 2.50 - $ 3.50 each... shotshells using OO Buck for defense...are about $ 0.50 - $ 0.60 each ... Having an exotic choke system to extend the range for a lead pellet shell to break clays with is probably a non-starter. Most of us that shoot 10 - 25 boxes ( 25 shells each ) a week or 250 - 600 shells a week...reload our own shells. None of us are going to give up our dedicated "clays" guns ...that we paid $ 2,000 - $ 15,000 for - and whatever you come up with is going to have to not detract from the looks of our guns / not change the balance or swing characteristics of our current guns - mostly Over Unders...and since we shoot O/U's we need 2 chokes. Many of us that shoot a lot of "clays" games ...also use the same guns to hunt upland birds with ...so same issues apply there. Big game hunting...in most of the western states we hunt with rifles - not shotguns. I think the market is limited for big game hunting with shotguns...and I think its fair to say that most big game hunters with shotguns are using "pump guns" ...guns costing from $ 200 - $ 600 .../ the current chokes they have work just fine / there are so many deer around - that taking a shot at a deer at over 50 yds, with a shotgun, probably isn't something anyone is too interested in. In areas where you expect to take longer range shots ...at Elk, etc ....its a rifle environment / not shotguns. Tactical shotguns...its a "Close Quarters Battle" scenario ...choke in a gun isn't really a factor. Chokes we have now work just fine with 00 Buck, slugs, etc. Assault Rifles (AR's) and sniper rifles are the preferred platforms for longer shots...not shotguns. I don't see a need or desire for a shotgun that will execute longer range shots.... Given all those issues, in my opinion mind you --- the question is, how does your proprietary system fit into that real world. I'm assuming you're going to be asking for some money for your system - any idea on costs ? Will it make our current shell options a lot cheaper ? Will it require us to give up any of our current shotguns ? What is your target market group ( clays shooters, hunters, tactical guys ) ?? Guys like me - may not be your target market group ( over 60, mostly clay target shooters, some limited bird hunting)...but a lot of guys like me collect and shoot specific guns for specific games: I have about 25 shotguns ...in 12ga, 16ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410.... 1. a couple of them are Benelli semi-autos ( 12ga, 20ga - with 28" and 30" barrels )...hunting, clays,... 2. two pump guns..Browning BPS models in 12ga and 20ga with 28" barrels ...hunting, clays... 3. the rest are all Browning O/U's or Browning break open single barrel guns..like Browning Citori BT-99's, BT-100's / XT Trap / XS Skeet ....with 30", 32" or 34" barrels... clays and hunting.... Guys like me are traditionalists....we have money to spend on our hobby / but you have to bring something to the table that is a really big deal ...or we'll just ignore it ! Can you respond to any of the issues I've raised without getting into your proprietary stuff ???

August 10, 2012, 12:41 PM	#10
BoomieMCT Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Posts: 212	That would be great for goose or turkey hunting - assuming it isn't too expensive.