Defending neighbor's property?

[Anthony2]

Personally, I think your heart was in the right place...I would do the same for my neighbors as they treat us as their own family...

I think your better course of action would have been to:

1- if possible remove keys and go back home
2- if not block the exit by standing on the street infront of the vehicle... and if the perp. tried to run you over, you would be on public property, instead of anothers' property...(I would think this would remove any grey areas in the use of deadly force)

just my thoughts...in any case you did what you beleive was right

[bdcc11]

I would let the air out of one tire with a puncture on the inside. If I cut the tire on the inside he would not know it was anything other than a simple flat and may take the time to change the tire while the police are on the way. I don't want someone to know that the gig is up until it is to late. I'm not the brave type that will put myself in harms way unless someone's life or well being was on the line.

[kennybs plbg]

What you did is probably illegal in most states, you'd go to jail and never own a gun again. Your life wasn't threatened, get the plate number and call 911, that's all you should have done. I know all the "hero's" and "tough guys" on here will tell you how great you did, I hope that gives you solace when you are in jail and spending your life saving to defend your decision.

Its legal in your state of NY, whats that old saying: if you don't know your rights, you have none.

kenny b

[DunedinDragon]

First off, you need to know the laws of your state that apply to this situation. It's probably NOT a good idea to try to start figuring this out when you see the guy breaking into your neighbors house.

Here in Florida these are the rules:

776.031 Use of force in defense of others.--A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

Based on that I would be within my rights to shoot the person as they are committing a burglary. Would I want to test that in this situation? Probably not. I'm with several of the others here. I'd use my phone, take a picture of the burglar and his car, and let the police handle it.

On the other hand part of me wants to say I'd do the same as you did but when the guy said, "What are you going to do? Shoot me?" I'd say, "yep, and I'd be perfectly justified in doing it ******* based on our laws here. Welcome to Florida jackass...now sit down or get yer head blown off."

[T_man357]

I'm not all that bright when it comes to some things but the second I read where you pulled your gun on a non threatening situtation (A guy holding a microwave walking away from you is definetley NOT LIFE THREATENING)
You pretty much lost me....Had you shot him you'd be in more trouble than you could possibly imagine!! Save pulling your gun for life threatening/ extreme situtations..

That's just my .02.. Not meant to be insulting in any way!!

[GUNSMOKE45441]

If we all had a neighbor like you ,the world would be a better place!!!
Well done!!!!

[invention_45]

gomer:

The way it turned out explains why I'd have started with the camera and 911.

You have no way of really knowing what is going on. 911 is required. The camera is like bait. If he was just a SO, then he might care about the photo, but maybe not enough to get into a brawl over it. If he was actually burglarizing and a pain killer addict, he would likely have driven away as fast as he could. If he were a semiprofessional burglar, I think he'd have wanted that camera bad. If he were a professional burglar, you probably wouldn't have ever seen him.

In other words, the worse the reason for his being there, the more he would want the camera.

The problem I see with trying to disable his vehicle is that you'd of course be doing that while he was inside. You have no way to know if he's glancing out the window watching you. If he is, and he's armed, he might emerge with his gun pulled and ready. You would not be. If he'll break in in the daytime, who's to say he won't just shoot you?

Now if the tire deflators meant shoot his tires out, well I don't know how much trouble you could get in doing that. I know that there are laws about discharging firearms in certain places and withing certain distances of places, but I'd have to look them up to decide.

[PythonGuy]

kennybs plbg, re-read you pistol permit laws and see if you are allowed to pull a handgun on a unarmed person because YOU think there might be some foul play going on. Honestly, some of you, in your zest to use your weapon, will look for any excuse to pull it out and play sherriff. Go and play cops and robbers, its your rear on the line, you'll go to jail, you'll pay tens of thousands of dollars to defend your position, have fun.

[kennybs plbg]

Your statement he should be in jail for his actions are rediculious. I'm not saying he should of shot the person but to pull his weapon to stop the burglary and address the situation was not illegal. It was his neighbor's home he was looking after and had every right too, as long as the relationship with the homeowner warrented it. In my neighborhood some of us have keys to each others houses. If an alarm would go and the police arive they are welcome to the keys.

Here you go in black and white, Artical 35 NYS Penal code.

S 35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and
in defense of a person in the course of burglary. 1. Any person may use physical force upon another person when he
reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he
reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such
other person of a crime involving damage to premises. He may use any
degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he
reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and he may use
deadly physical force if he reasonably believes such to be necessary to
prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson.
2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person
licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force
upon another person when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to
prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or
attempted commission by such other person of a criminal trespass upon
such premises. He may use any degree of physical force, other than
deadly physical force, which he reasonably believes to be necessary for
such purpose, and he may use deadly physical force in order to prevent
or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson, as
prescribed in subdivision one, or in the course of a burglary or
attempted burglary, as prescribed in subdivision three.
3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to
be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that
another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such
dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other
person when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or
terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary.


kenny b

[PythonGuy]

One major problem with your argument Kenny, he didn't know at the time if it was a robbery. For example, an employee at my company was having marital problems, her husband came home and kicked the door in to get some of his stuff because he was leaving her. She called the police and they came as he was there, and they told her they can't do a thing, its his house too and as long as he wasn't hurting anyone, its his property to destroy. So if you are a neighbor and don't know who this guy is, or whats happening, you pull a gun on him and YOU go to jail. Why some of you think you are Charles Bronson is beyond me, take the plate number and call the police, they'll catch him if he is commiting a crime. But then you'd lose the "thrill" of pulling you gun out and playing Marshall Dillon. Most scenarios on here, as Mr. Meyer pointed out, is a cry for justification to pull your gun. Some of you just live for it, it defines you. I love guns and shooting, but this isn't the Old west, and unless your LIFE is threatened, your gun should remain in its holster. Grow up for god's sake, you sound like kids with a new toy.

[rick_reno]

I would have offered him the 36 inch Sony television I have sitting on my porch. I've been trying to get rid of it for months, I'm pretty sure two of us could have gotten it into his trunk. The damn thing is big and heavy.

[gunslinger1911ACP]

As much as I admire your courage, I would argue what others previously stated:

• call the police
• document the specs on the truck and BG
• slash the tires
• grab the keys to the truck, if possible
• video record the event

If you pull a gun on the BG, and he knows where you live, you put your family at risk. What if he pulls a similar stunt on you next time, but comes back armed with friends to pay you a visit? What if from inside your neighbors house, he saw you, drew a weapon and injured or killed you?

That's my take.

[kennybs plbg]

New Toy? I probably have guns older then you.
I believe he was correct in pulling his weapon and equally correct in not shooting. It's a judgement call, he made it, stopped the burgary in progress, took down information that was needed for the arrest at a later time. Sounds kind of textbook to me and all within his legal right.

But some think he should be in jail, go figure

kenny b

[PythonGuy]

We just disagree on what a CCW or gun owner's responsibility is. My "new toy" comment wasn't aimed at you Kenny, and I doubt you have many gun's older then me. On the forum there are some people who own guns and like to shoot, target or hunting. There are some who carry and are reserved about it and would use their gun as a last resort in life threatening situations only. And then there are those that spend a big part of their day figuring out ways and situations that can pull that gun that is just burning a hole in their holster. Its pretty obvious to anyone with just a little common sense who is who. And its also obvious that these, however many, gun happy people will do the most harm when it comes to losing the rights to carry, or even own firearms. Because these people scare the average person who know's nothing about guns. The ones who have the ND's, or who look to pull a gun at any opportunity, you recognize anyone like that?

[STAGE 2]

There is something very telling about our society when a honest citizen going out of his way to protect his neighbor/her property and is admonished for his actions. Doing the right thing has nothing to do with legality

Legal or not (which I will concede his actions probably ran afoul of some penal code provision) were he my neighbor, I'd buy him dinner, and between the two of us we'd buy the best dressed attorney in the city should the need arise. I don't care what the law says, with a fair jury and assuming the perp had some priors, there is no way that he would be submitted to any penalty of consequence. This would be doubly so if you threatened to bring the media into it. Prosecutors, and city officals cringe at the mention of the name O'reilly/fox/insert your favorite news station here.

[PythonGuy]

STAGE 2 you are missing my main point, it was not known at the time if this was a bad guy, owner, boyfriend who owned the house, what gives any citizen the right to go and take it on himself to find out by pulling his gun no less? You want gangs of armed do gooders out playing cop? What if its you and you're the one who gets called out by a well meaning neighbor with a gun, you gonna shoot him? Most people on here get bent out of shape when a guy in a gun store points a weapon near them while checking it out, how about some stranger on your property doing it to you? Are you so blind you can't see the right thing to do here is take plate numbers, descriptions and call 911? What is with some of you guys??

[gomer]

STAGE 2 you are missing my main point, it was not known at the time if this was a bad guy, owner, boyfriend who owned the house,

I was 100% positive that this was a real live "bad guy". My wife and I have lived across the street from her for 6 years and talk to her on a daily basis. I know everyone that comes and goes from her house, as she does mine. If it was someones house that I wasn't familiar with and had ANY doubt about it being something related to an ex-boyfriend or the like.. I would have left it alone.

[stephen426]

Python Guy,

Gomer knows his neighbor. I understand your point that we as armed citizens have no rights to act as freelance policemen. His situation is different so lets leave out all of the hypotheticals and generalizations. If he didn't even know the name of his neighbor and went over there, than I might agree with you. Even if that was the case, I would call 911 and report it since the guy kicked the door in. If it was his house, then no harm done.

As I have already mentioned before, the only things he could have done better was to get the tag info first and possibly film or take pictures of the guy. I feel that pulling the gun may have gone a little too far and could be considered brandishing.

Gomer, I hope that nothing bad comes of your noble actions. Good job and be sure to stay on top of this guy's case. If he gets out of jail, he may come back looking for revenge.

[PythonGuy]

Last comment from me, going over there and asking whats going on is one thing, pulling a gun on someone NOT threatening your life is WRONG, period. I've seen car's at my neighbors when they aren't home and asked the people can I help them, and who are they looking for, I never did it while pulling a gun and that's when the line was crossed in my mind. DO what you want, say what you want, change the story and facts a hundred times, you had no right to pull that gun.

[gomer]

Btw,
Just as some relevant info. After the PD arrived a few officers drew their guns and went into the house to "clear the residence". After that they came back over and took my statement etc. I told them EXACTLY what my actions were, even the part about drawing on the guy. They didn't say a word to me about pulling my gun. The guy plead guilty to something that was reduced and never really went to jail after the initial arrest. I still see him in town occasionally. All of this occured in a small town in North Alabama.

My reasoning for pulling the gun was that if he was brazen enough (high enough?) to kick open her door in broad daylight, he probably wouldn't hesitate to rush me or try and harm me.. I wanted him to know that I wasn't playing and wanted every advantage I could have.

[porkskin]

gomer you did good. i grew up in dothan alabama and have been gone for 10 years. i love alabama and the people like you who defend neighborhoods and friends. in my part of bama, that guy deserves what he got. if you don't kick in folks' doors, you don't get guns pointed at you. in big city n.c. where i live now, the liberals have you afraid to use your gun for fear of suit or jail. i like the idea of, if you don't mess with other people or their stuff then you usually don't get drawn on.

[STAGE 2]

STAGE 2 you are missing my main point

Actually, no I'm not

it was not known at the time if this was a bad guy, owner, boyfriend who owned the house

True, and he didnt run over there and start waiving a gun around at the very first chance either.

what gives any citizen the right to go and take it on himself to find out by pulling his gun no less?

You're confusing duty with right. As a neighbor and a private citizen he has no duty to investigate. However he does has the right to investigate.

You want gangs of armed do gooders out playing cop? What if its you and you're the one who gets called out by a well meaning neighbor with a gun, you gonna shoot him?

No, but I certianly wouldn't characterize this guy as an armed do gooder by any stretch of the imagination. While the people in my neighborhood don't carry (at least that I know of) you can better believe that if they saw this going on they would definately pay this guy a visit with louisville in hand.

As for me, well I can pretty much gurarantee you that if I was going to someones house to pick up something that was mine I wouldn't go about doing it in a way that made it look like B&E.

Most people on here get bent out of shape when a guy in a gun store points a weapon near them while checking it out, how about some stranger on your property doing it to you? Are you so blind you can't see the right thing to do here is take plate numbers, descriptions and call 911? What is with some of you guys??

I guess that myself and my neighbors just dont take well to crime. Im sorry that you feel otherwise, and thats fine. However I'm inclined to think that given the choice, a felon would rather hit your neighborhood than mine.

Police have their place and their job, and for the most part they do it well. That said, they cannot be there for everything or do everything, and I refuse to sit on my couch and suck my thumb because "all I can do it call 911 and give them the license plate". No one said go in guns blazing. However I'm inclined to think that if we were all a bit more socially responsible and cared more about the things that dont have our names on them, kids could still go out and play at night, and people could leave their front doors unlocked like they once did without fear of some crackhead or inner city kid stopping in for a visit.

Playing rambo is dangerous, but sticking your head in the sand is just as bad, if not worse for society.

[GUNSMOKE45441]

Stage 2
+1
Well said!! You covered it all.

[JJB2]

+1+................