Buckmark carbine with a broken stock,,,

aarondhgraham · January 20, 2016, 11:40 AM

Buckmark carbine with a broken stock,,,
Is it now an NFA item?

I know a gentleman who owns a Buckmark carbine,,,
It was in the trunk of his car when he was rear-ended.

The result is that the stock snapped directly behind the pistol grip,,,
I have fired his carbine but never paid attention to the stock.

Can this be repaired?

He's afraid to keep the gun because it's shorter than the minimum.

He's trying to contact Browning to get their read on this.

Any thoughts?

Aarond

.

FrankenMauser · January 20, 2016, 03:01 PM

The metal portion of the pistol grip and stock mount is part of the receiver, and fairly thin.

It's not likely to be repairable with any hope of durability.

Plus... If the stock was smashed hard enough to shear it from the receiver, the receiver itself was probably twisted or deformed enough that it's going to cause problems.

My guess is that it's scrap.

But, I would definitely contact Browning, to see if they may be able to help in some way. It's not likely, but you never know...

At this point, it could very well be an unauthorized short barrel rifle.
If Browning doesn't want to offer any kind of receiver replacement (paid or otherwise), I would strip everything and destroy the receiver.
The barrel is rifle-specific, but everything else (slide, firing pin assembly, magazine, trigger, sear, hammer, etc.) should be, or I know is usable on almost any other Buckmark model.

I bought one of the 'Carbine' models right when the Buckmark rifle was introduced. Amazing fun. Great times were had by all that shot it. And I usually paired it with a Buckmark Standard (5.5" slab-side) on my hip.
...But I got tired of being peppered by hot fouling and burning powder, and traded the rifle off for a new Ruger P95 and a case of ammo. No regrets. It just isn't a design that's conducive to being run dirty at all, due to the proximity of your face to a blow-back action. It isn't a bad design, it just didn't work for me. My average day, at that time, was 500-1,500 rounds of .22 LR. And the circumstances didn't make cleaning much of a viable option. So, we parted ways.

aarondhgraham · January 20, 2016, 04:56 PM

I just received an e-mail from my bud,,,
The other drivers insurance should cover a new rifle.

Apparently he was hit by an unusual person,,,
One who actually carries good liability insurance on his car.

My friend told his agent of the damage done to many items in the trunk,,,
His agent said that the other driver isn't contesting anything,,,
And that his insurance will surely cover a new gun.

My friends insurance agent will take possession of the broken Buckmark,,,
And do with it whatever they always do with damaged firearms,,,
So it looks like a happy ending will be had by all concerned.

Aarond

.

cslinger · January 20, 2016, 05:05 PM

I have no idea the legalities involved here so take this thought for what its worth as nothing more than food for thought.

If the firearm does not constitute a SBR then wouldn't giving it to the insurance agent constitute transferring said illegal SBR?

I think I would probably do like was suggested and disassemble, destroy whatever unless I talked to somebody about the legalities.

Now I don't think a Black Helicopter is going to swoop down and say AHA!!!! Gotcha!!!! but those wacky guys at the BATFE have been known at times to do some weird things and I would want to be double secret special sure I was legal.

Txhillbilly · January 20, 2016, 09:39 PM

I don't know where you guy's are coming up with the "SBR" in all of this. The butt stock got broken off a rifle. The barrel length hasn't been altered.

The other drivers insurance co.,should replace/repair the damaged firearm. Since the Buckmark rifle's butt stock is part of the receiver,then either send it back to Browning to be repaired,or scrapped,and get another Buckmark rifle.

cslinger · January 20, 2016, 10:50 PM

SBR might not be the best term. Basically a rifle has to be a minimum overall length to be legal and if the butt stock is broken of, but there is still a functioning arm it technically is smaller than that legal length, based on the op.

FrankenMauser · January 21, 2016, 12:04 AM

Quote:

SBR might not be the best term.

Yea, I was off with the SBR reference.

I believe the "chopped" butt stock would make it an AOW ("any other weapon").

Ibmikey · January 21, 2016, 08:13 AM

It is no wonder the ATF comes up with such stupid rulings, you guys give them all the fuel they need. The rifle was damaged in a collision not intentionally altered by an individual, send it to the factory, take it to a gunsmith or give it to the insurance co for destruction...the Gov is not hiding behind telephone poles to arrest folks who are the victims of misfortune.....yet!

aarondhgraham · January 21, 2016, 09:52 AM

Quote:

the Gov is not hiding behind telephone poles to arrest folks who are the victims of misfortune.....yet!

You made me chuckle loudly Ibmikey,,,
Thanks for the morning humor.

Aarond

.

Theohazard · January 21, 2016, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

Quote:

Originally Posted by cslinger

SBR might not be the best term.

Yea, I was off with the SBR reference.

I believe the "chopped" butt stock would make it an AOW ("any other weapon").

SBR would be correct if the stock was still considered functional. And since it came from the factory as a rifle, it can't be configured as a pistol or an AOW.

There are two ways a rifle can be an SBR: If the barrel is shorter than 16" or if the overall length is less than 26". But considering the stock snapped off and is no longer on the rifle, I would think the ATF would simply treat it as a disassembled rifle and they wouldn't have a problem with it.

But I'm with Ibmikey, I wouldn't worry about it either way; the firearm was damaged in an accident and now the owner is taking the proper steps to get it repaired or replaced.

FrankenMauser · January 21, 2016, 02:22 PM

Quote:

It is no wonder the ATF comes up with such stupid rulings, you guys give them all the fuel they need. The rifle was damaged in a collision not intentionally altered by an individual, send it to the factory, take it to a gunsmith or give it to the insurance co for destruction...the Gov is not hiding behind telephone poles to arrest folks who are the victims of misfortune.....yet!

If you are including my response, then keep in mind that my reply was in regards to Browning denying any repair or replacement, and the receiver likely being damaged beyond usefulness.
At that point, it is a paperweight. Receiver destruction, as an ounce of prevention, is the prudent option.

But, hey, if you think sticking it under the front porch and saving it for a rainy day is the better option, there may be an insurance agent you could talk to...

johnwilliamson062 · January 22, 2016, 06:53 PM

The adjuster of the company who pays the claim may want it. Technically, anything they pay to replace they get salvage rights to. I seriously doubt they will want it though. I don't see how your agent has any claim to it. I also don't think he has any special standard way to dispose of it. He probably just said he could take it b/c it was easier than continuing the conversation about how to dispose of it. I bet he takes it home or throws it in the dumpster behind the office.

Been there, done that, but not with a firearm.

Ibmikey · January 24, 2016, 07:15 AM

Franken, No I was not selecting you out for a personal confrontation, my comments were directed at the general mood the conversation was traveling, "Big Brother is always watching". I try to be a bit more positive in my daily outlook on life, it comes from living in the Exit Lane and knowing the stop sign is not far ahead.

dakota.potts · January 24, 2016, 11:33 PM

To address the NFA portion of the question with other questions:

Is a bolt action rifle now an SBR if I take the stock off and the overall length is under 26"?

Perhaps if I assembled it in a manner conducive to firing or used it in a crime. Otherwise, I would think it constitutes only a disassembled or broken rifle.

Likewise, if your barrel blows up and there are still 4" of rifling left but the overall barrel is under 16", I'm sure you don't have to worry about it being an NFA item. Don't continue using it in that configuration, which should be obvious.

aarondhgraham · February 1, 2016, 05:28 PM

He will be getting a brand new Buckmark Carbine,,,
Courtesy of the other person's insurance.

His insurance agent took possession of the broken gun,,,
It will be turned in to a police station somewhere.

Apparently they have protocols for damaged firearms,,,
Usually for when they get incinerated in a house fire.

So, all's well that ends well.

Aarond

.

January 20, 2016, 11:40 AM	#1
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Buckmark carbine with a broken stock,,, Buckmark carbine with a broken stock,,, Is it now an NFA item? I know a gentleman who owns a Buckmark carbine,,, It was in the trunk of his car when he was rear-ended. The result is that the stock snapped directly behind the pistol grip,,, I have fired his carbine but never paid attention to the stock. Can this be repaired? He's afraid to keep the gun because it's shorter than the minimum. He's trying to contact Browning to get their read on this. Any thoughts? Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

January 20, 2016, 03:01 PM	#2
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	The metal portion of the pistol grip and stock mount is part of the receiver, and fairly thin. It's not likely to be repairable with any hope of durability. Plus... If the stock was smashed hard enough to shear it from the receiver, the receiver itself was probably twisted or deformed enough that it's going to cause problems. My guess is that it's scrap. But, I would definitely contact Browning, to see if they may be able to help in some way. It's not likely, but you never know... At this point, it could very well be an unauthorized short barrel rifle. If Browning doesn't want to offer any kind of receiver replacement (paid or otherwise), I would strip everything and destroy the receiver. The barrel is rifle-specific, but everything else (slide, firing pin assembly, magazine, trigger, sear, hammer, etc.) should be, or I know is usable on almost any other Buckmark model. I bought one of the 'Carbine' models right when the Buckmark rifle was introduced. Amazing fun. Great times were had by all that shot it. And I usually paired it with a Buckmark Standard (5.5" slab-side) on my hip. ...But I got tired of being peppered by hot fouling and burning powder, and traded the rifle off for a new Ruger P95 and a case of ammo. No regrets. It just isn't a design that's conducive to being run dirty at all, due to the proximity of your face to a blow-back action. It isn't a bad design, it just didn't work for me. My average day, at that time, was 500-1,500 rounds of .22 LR. And the circumstances didn't make cleaning much of a viable option. So, we parted ways. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. Last edited by FrankenMauser; January 20, 2016 at 03:07 PM.

January 20, 2016, 04:56 PM	#3
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	The other drivers insurance might cover a new rifle,,, I just received an e-mail from my bud,,, The other drivers insurance should cover a new rifle. Apparently he was hit by an unusual person,,, One who actually carries good liability insurance on his car. My friend told his agent of the damage done to many items in the trunk,,, His agent said that the other driver isn't contesting anything,,, And that his insurance will surely cover a new gun. My friends insurance agent will take possession of the broken Buckmark,,, And do with it whatever they always do with damaged firearms,,, So it looks like a happy ending will be had by all concerned. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

January 20, 2016, 05:05 PM	#4
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	I have no idea the legalities involved here so take this thought for what its worth as nothing more than food for thought. If the firearm does not constitute a SBR then wouldn't giving it to the insurance agent constitute transferring said illegal SBR? I think I would probably do like was suggested and disassemble, destroy whatever unless I talked to somebody about the legalities. Now I don't think a Black Helicopter is going to swoop down and say AHA!!!! Gotcha!!!! but those wacky guys at the BATFE have been known at times to do some weird things and I would want to be double secret special sure I was legal. __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

January 20, 2016, 10:50 PM	#6
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	SBR might not be the best term. Basically a rifle has to be a minimum overall length to be legal and if the butt stock is broken of, but there is still a functioning arm it technically is smaller than that legal length, based on the op. __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

January 20, 2016, 09:39 PM	#5
Txhillbilly Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2008 Posts: 512	I don't know where you guy's are coming up with the "SBR" in all of this. The butt stock got broken off a rifle. The barrel length hasn't been altered. The other drivers insurance co.,should replace/repair the damaged firearm. Since the Buckmark rifle's butt stock is part of the receiver,then either send it back to Browning to be repaired,or scrapped,and get another Buckmark rifle.

January 21, 2016, 08:13 AM	#8
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	It is no wonder the ATF comes up with such stupid rulings, you guys give them all the fuel they need. The rifle was damaged in a collision not intentionally altered by an individual, send it to the factory, take it to a gunsmith or give it to the insurance co for destruction...the Gov is not hiding behind telephone poles to arrest folks who are the victims of misfortune.....yet!

January 22, 2016, 06:53 PM	#12
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	The adjuster of the company who pays the claim may want it. Technically, anything they pay to replace they get salvage rights to. I seriously doubt they will want it though. I don't see how your agent has any claim to it. I also don't think he has any special standard way to dispose of it. He probably just said he could take it b/c it was easier than continuing the conversation about how to dispose of it. I bet he takes it home or throws it in the dumpster behind the office. Been there, done that, but not with a firearm. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; January 24, 2016 at 02:08 PM.

January 24, 2016, 07:15 AM	#13
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	Franken, No I was not selecting you out for a personal confrontation, my comments were directed at the general mood the conversation was traveling, "Big Brother is always watching". I try to be a bit more positive in my daily outlook on life, it comes from living in the Exit Lane and knowing the stop sign is not far ahead.

January 24, 2016, 11:33 PM	#14
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	To address the NFA portion of the question with other questions: Is a bolt action rifle now an SBR if I take the stock off and the overall length is under 26"? Perhaps if I assembled it in a manner conducive to firing or used it in a crime. Otherwise, I would think it constitutes only a disassembled or broken rifle. Likewise, if your barrel blows up and there are still 4" of rifling left but the overall barrel is under 16", I'm sure you don't have to worry about it being an NFA item. Don't continue using it in that configuration, which should be obvious. __________________ Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus) Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.

February 1, 2016, 05:28 PM	#15
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Well, here is the final outcome. He will be getting a brand new Buckmark Carbine,,, Courtesy of the other person's insurance. His insurance agent took possession of the broken gun,,, It will be turned in to a police station somewhere. Apparently they have protocols for damaged firearms,,, Usually for when they get incinerated in a house fire. So, all's well that ends well. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)