January 21, 2010, 01:16 PM | #1 |
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McCain Feingold crippled
While we often discuss the fine points of 2d Am. advocacy, one of the very general impediments to it was McCain Feingold which prohibited certain 3d party communications within close proximity to an election. Plainly, if the NRA has its speech restricted leading up to an election, the effect of your support is somewhat muted.
The SCOTUS has stricken the 3d party speech prohibitions in this opinion. http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-205.pdf I once thought that mandating disclosure of donors was a good idea, but Thomas makes a powerful argument against it.
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January 21, 2010, 02:23 PM | #2 |
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This is bad, in my opinion. Blankly opening up the doors of campaign finance is tantamount to saying that the wealthiest voice deserves to be loudest. To put it in terms everyone here would appreciate, what happens if Mike Bloomberg decides he wants to spend $10 million on anti-gun ads?
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January 21, 2010, 02:33 PM | #3 |
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Then the NRA can match it, ADB.
Bloomberg won't do that though, because all it does is net him negative publicity with gun owners. America supports guns. Anti-gun bias angers people and creates distrust towards the origin. Not jut for TFL members, but even for casual shooters or those on the fence. They can see through this stuff. |
January 21, 2010, 02:34 PM | #4 | |
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So if you are a fabulously wealthy billionaire funding your own PAC, the reporting requirements aren't that bad - you are the only donor. If you are the NRA funding your own PAC from 4,000,000 $30 donations, they get pretty tedious and expensive quickly. This is a tremendous step forward, not just for the NRA (who was explicitly named as one of the targets of McCain-Feingold); but for everyone who wants to put their $.02 together with like-minded people and hope to have some of the same influence that guys like Bloomberg, Soros, etc. have. |
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January 21, 2010, 04:00 PM | #5 | |
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Last edited by arkie2; January 21, 2010 at 04:00 PM. Reason: added quotes |
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January 21, 2010, 04:05 PM | #6 |
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Yep,
We are just going to have to vote in politicians with greater honesty and integrity. Lots of luck on that one !!! ... Be Safe !!! |
January 22, 2010, 07:24 AM | #7 |
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FWIW, I think it was a great ruling. A person, corporation or organization should not be stifled in their free speech. Period!!
McCain/Feingold was one of the most draconian free speech violations I have ever seen in my life. And I ain't young. |
January 22, 2010, 07:34 AM | #8 |
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McCain Feingold didn't really cripple the ability of wealthy individuals to spend their own money advocating for candidates.
What it essentially did was cripple the ability of non wealthy individuals to organize and pool their money for greater effect. I know I have no ability to effectively advocate for my beliefs because I don't have the resources. But everyone gives a little and pretty soon we have enough to effectively advocate. I agree with this decision. Groups on both sides of the spectrum should be allowed to advocate their causes. |
January 22, 2010, 08:11 AM | #9 |
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I didn't think it was about free speech. I thought it was about paid speech.
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January 22, 2010, 08:52 AM | #10 | |
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It isn't a short read. I've only had a chance to scan parts of it.
If you are a fan of the writing of Scalia and his clerks, you will enjoy: Quote:
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January 22, 2010, 09:54 AM | #11 |
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The decision itself, is a breath of fresh air. I never did agree with McCain-Feingold. I always thought it was a crock, that Congress would actually stifle political speech and get away with it (McConnell).
Stare Decisis: - Lat. "to stand by that which is decided." The principal that the precedent decisions are to be followed by the courts. It is essentially, the practice of not reinventing the wheel. Did anyone else notice the amount of writing used to explain why they were overturning prior precedent? C.J. Roberts opinion was almost entirely devoted to that issue alone. Justice Stevens dissenting opinion used much space explaining why they shouldn't, not so much why the prior decisions were good law. I don't know how others might look at this, but I find that the battle lines over McDonald to be fully drawn. |
January 22, 2010, 10:11 AM | #12 | |
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I find this argument supported by any coherent principle only to a very limited degree. I don't think Stevens can square his position on stare decisis in this case with his vote in Lawrence v. Texas which plainly reversed Hardwick. Roberts was asked his position on stare decisis in his confirmation hearings, and he grasped for a nebulous standard that would afford weight to past precedent without a full endorsement of stare decisis. I think Bork's position as stated in his hearings made more sense: an adherence to stare decisis for a court the recurring issue for which is "Is this constitutional?" doesn't really make sense. If new ideas about how we read the document arise, then we will not be bound by the precedent of, say, Dred Scott. Roberts and Stevens are both brilliant men, but I see little real point in pretending the court will be bound by any precedent it does not prefer.
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January 22, 2010, 01:01 PM | #13 | |
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I need to read at least that portion just so I can see how well Cruikshank and Presser square up with the various Justices take on stare decisis. |
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January 22, 2010, 01:04 PM | #14 |
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I'm turning my TV off in october and I'll turn it back on after election day
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January 22, 2010, 04:00 PM | #15 | |
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January 22, 2010, 04:22 PM | #16 | |
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Letting people have economically valuable media access in the same way they might choose to spend on any other good seems to honor each individual's choices the most and lead to the most free, i.e. least restricted, exchange. Let's say this fellow with wealthy friends spent a fortune on an election and won. Would you want your ability to contribute to unseating him to be limited by the government of which he is now a part?
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January 22, 2010, 04:26 PM | #17 | |
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On the flip side, if you are a group of individuals (NRA, for example), your political power is muted. You can no longer speak within 60-days of an election. You have to report every donation from your 4,000,000 members that was used to fund your speech. Hope you don't misfile one of those reports and make yourself a felon in the process of doing 4,000,000 reports a year. The case involved was a non-profit corporation (as many political lobbying groups, including the NRA, Sierra Club, etc. are) who funded and made a documentary film attacking Hillary Clinton. Because they accepted some corporation contributions in their funding (as well as many individual contributions) - a movie about political candidates was censored by our government and prevented from airing. How could you possibly equate this outcome with free speech and not want it overturned? And that doesn't even get into the bizarre outcomes of this law - ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox News are all corporations; yet all of them got a blanket exception from this law. Wonder if that amplifies their already disconcerting power to shape politics? So what would have happened if AFL-CIO started their own network? Or the NRA (who did exactly that)? Are they exempted media organizations or corporations exploiting a "free speech" loophole? |
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January 22, 2010, 11:30 PM | #18 |
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I haven't read the opinion yet but I have always believed McCain-Feingold to be unconstitutional. Most fundamentally, corporations are associations of people. The freedom of association is a part of the First Amendment's right to assemble. Denying the right of speech to a group of people associated to engage in free speech is thus doubly repugnant.
The ability to marshal money and expend it for printing costs, air time, and other modes of speech is inextricably bound to the right of speech itself. I can go downtown and advocate for or against a particular candidate on the courthouse lawn. Only a minuscule portion of the population will ever be able to hear me. The decision by the Supreme Court gives at least some opportunity for associations of individuals to be heard. |
January 22, 2010, 11:51 PM | #19 | ||
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The President made a very unfortunate statement in response to this, saying he was going to "get to work immediately with Congress" to come up with a "forceful response." That one sounds very familiar. Is it 1937 all over again? What this will do is change the balance of power towards the middle. Traditionally, corporations have only gone to the trouble of forming and funding PAC's when focused on specific, highly partisan issues. As such, candidates from the far right or far left have benefited. Now that it's easier to advertise for a candidate, we're likely to see a groundswell of support for moderate republicans and conservative democrats. As mentioned, it also gives the NRA, GOA, SAF and other 2A advocacy groups more latitude. I've no doubt there will be all sorts of "watchdog" and whistleblower groups on both sides of the fence to keep things in balance. Of course, the MSM is screaming "judicial activism" over the whole thing.
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January 22, 2010, 11:59 PM | #20 |
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I've always understood the First Amendment to, in a narrow interpretation, prevent the incarceration of citizens for political speech, but, in a broad interpretation, to prevent the suppression of the quiet voices by the large, whether through threat of violence or through purchasing power.
I think this ruling strikes a tremendous blow to the last vestiges of the ideals upon which this nation was founded.* *don't get all cynical and say those ideals are already gone |
January 23, 2010, 12:46 AM | #21 | |||
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When the left throws tantrums about this decision, it just affirms that the decision was the right one. Quote:
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January 23, 2010, 02:07 AM | #22 | |
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January 23, 2010, 02:27 AM | #23 | |
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Using this singular example, it might appear like the "robber barons" will buy out the government. I feel the reverse condition is far worse. Frankly, having a disposable income is vilified to advance a more socialist agenda. The "rich" are accused of securing better healthcare, so socialist medicine must become the norm for fairness. Well, if I'm in a place to buy a commodity, it's my right to choose to purchase better insurance, and not a HDTV or a new Escalade. That's a free choice, I vote with my wallet. And in the final analysis, I believe 'envy' is at the core. You have to get up everyday and work for most wealth, unless you get fired by NBC, and lots of people would rather complain than set the alarm clock. |
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January 23, 2010, 05:43 AM | #24 | |
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ETA: My view on McCain/Feingold boils down to this: Whenever you single out a certain group, and limit their free speech, you are giving groups without such limitations undue influence on the outcome of an election IMHO. For example, McCain/Feingold exempted media corporations from its limitations. Media corporations are some of the wealthiest and most powerful entities in existence. They gained a HUGE advantage when other, ordinary, corporations/groups were limited in their free speech. (I wonder how the left would have taken McCain/Feingold had the same limitations existed for media corporations?) It's almost akin to a "T" account in accounting for me. Whenever you limit free speech for one group, you throw the "T" account out of balance (i.e., debits must equal credits). That is unfair and unconstitutional IMHO. Unless, as Justice Kennedy stated, there is some substantial, realistic government reason for limiting free speech. Clearly, IMHO, there is no substantial justification for this 30 day prohibition on certain groups. Last edited by RDak; January 23, 2010 at 06:00 AM. |
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January 23, 2010, 04:00 PM | #25 |
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I think on balance this was a good call. Now let's use it to our advantage in the next election. We can fund corporations like the NRA, and they can make our voice heard.
Posted at Calguns http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=261850 The Cato Institute chimes in on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeGlz...layer_embedded The information in that video settles it for me. Very compelling. Last edited by maestro pistolero; January 23, 2010 at 07:20 PM. |
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