Cast bullet loads for .35 Whelen

[Johnny Guest]

I'm getting some pretty good results with Speer and Sierra bullets in my Rem 700 .35 Whelen. A while back, a local shop had a going out of business sale and I picked up a couple of boxes of some 212 gr. gas check .358 bullets.

I can't find any data on these - - Not even in my 40-year old Lyman manual. I'd appreciate some of your pet loads - - Type and weight of powder, esitimated velocity, and what kind of accuracy you're getting, in whiat kind of rifle.

Many thanks - -
Johnny

[Paul B.]

Here's some data from the Lyman 48th edition loading manual. it's for a 204 gr. bullet, but 8.0 gr. difference won't be any problem. Press is in C.U.P.

Powder start gr. vel. FPS press max gr. vel. press.
SR-4759 24.0 1707 28,800 31.0 2092 38,800

IMR-4227 30.0 1615 24,700 36.0 2096 31,900

IMR-4198 30.0 1666 22,400 37.5 2097 31,200

IMR-3031 50.0 2558 34,600 58.5 2860 49,000

I'd take the velocity figures for IMR-3031 with a few grains of salt. The bullet I am playing with in the .35 Whelen is either the RCBS 35-250-SP. It's a good bullet, but RCBS thinks the damn thing is worth it's weight in gold. So far, it does show promise. THE (emphasis mine) for the .35 Whelen is Lyman's #3589 or #358009, a discontinued mold. many people call Lyman and ask them to bring it back out, but Lyman just ain't interested. After all, the bean counters rule. I found a used one cheap, but it's defective in that the gas check shank is too small and the checks just fall off. I fixed the problem, but I'm still trying to get it to shoot in one of my .35 Whelens. (I have three)
There is a clone of that bullet that has a small flat on the nose that should make it a bit better on game. It too is impossible to get as only six were made. It was a special order deal and about 20 people signed in on it. Only six people put their money where their mouth was, including me.
I'm not sure of the URL, but it is either www.castbullets.com or www.castboolits.com. Go there and do a search on cast bullets in the .35 Whelen. There's at least one fellow who's taken a moose with his Whelen and a cast bullet. Another who hunted with him used a .358 Winchester to get his. If I can finally get a load that I like, and draw a tag, I'll be using my .35 Whelen to try and take a bull elk. The really hard part will be to draw that tag.
Hope those loads work out for you.
Paul B.

[Johnny Guest]

Paul, thanks for the valuable input.

What kind of velocity are you getting with your GC cast bullet loads? In what rifles? Sounds as if you're a .35W enthusiast. What sort of accuracy can I expect?

TNX again
Johnny

[Paul B.]

I haven't done any chronographing yet with those loads, and accuracy has been so-so. I've used the RCBS #35-200-FN bullet as well and it's been a bit of a dog for me in both the .358 Win. and .35 Whelen.
There used to be an article on the Whelen on sixgunner.com by Paco Kelly that will open up your eyes. He did some work with H-335 that is downright scary. I've worked up to his data in all three rifles, and while they appear safe in my guns, they are hotter than the hinges of hell. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to call up that article for some time now. When Sixgunner revamped, it got lost. I did cheat and print out a copy. I'm kind of agreeing with him the both the .358 Win. and .35 Whelen may not be loaded to their full potential.
Another mold I'm looking at is one by NEI that weighs about 290 gr. That should be one helluva thumper. I think I'll need a faster twist barrel for that one though. I've got two more whelens in the planning stage, another Mauser with 1 in 12" twist and a Ruger #1, also with the 12" twist rate.
Your rifle has a 1 in 16" twst, as does my M700 and Ruger 77. Theoretically, those 200 gr. bullets should do about 2.0" anyway. I don't think I'd try to push them more than about 2000 FPS. Your bore diameter should be .358". I hope those bullets are at least .359" and preferably .360" in diameter. At .358", they just might lead badly.
I haven't done any shooting in almost three month due to cancer surgery, but I'm hoping to start back up in about two more weeks. Got to get toughened back up for the upcoming fall hunts.
Paul B.

[Johnny Guest]

The Paco Kelly article you mention - - Is it this one? - -
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm
He DOES show some rather warm loads there. Makes me glad I don't have a .358 RemMag. I understand the standard loadings are pretty vigorous in the little 600-Series carbines.

I hope my 1-in-16 twist barrel won't handicap me unduly with the ehavier bullets, though my messing with the 250 gr bullets indicates this may be ALL the bullet weight I need for my purposes.

I just calipered a half dozen of these cast bullets and they seem to run just a touch over .358, but mostly not .359". Well, I have 'em on hand, and I gotta try.

I do hope your cancer surgery did all that was needed, and that your recovery has been comfortable.

Best,
Johnny

[Paul B.]

Yup! That's the article. The cancer surgery went reasonably well. At least it was prostate cancer and not one og the nastier types. It was caught early enough that I had the option of the radioactive seed implantation. Nice part about that is it's usually done as an outpatient procedure. The only real bad part about it is I had to wear a catheter for almost a week afterwards. That damn thing hurt every time I walked, or rolled over in my sleep. I surely could have kissed that cute little nurse when she removed that thing. It's been almost two months now and about the olny problems is sometimes urination is a bit iffy, and I still feel weak all the time. (NO! It don't glow in the dark. ) I think it's the radiation that creates the weakness, which makes it hard to get my butt in gear and do some reloading and shooting. :barf: Other than that, I feel perfectly normal and just fine.
Paul B.

[Long Path]

Dadgum, Paul! I go to ask about your cast Whelen experience, and I find that you've recently had a whole 'nother kinda experience! Hope you're fully mended and hale, friend.

So anyway... have you done any of your patented bullet-hardening stuff with these cast Whelen bullets? I seem to recall a long time ago you were doing some interesting things with .30-30 bullets in your oven...

[drinks]

I have a handirifle in .35 Whelen, have started on a program with cast bullets.
I only have one mold , so far, the Lyman 358315, supposed to be 204gr, I get 214gr with gas check and lube.
Rel7, 38.5gr, 2190fps. 42.5gr, 2380fps.
IMR 4198, 35.5gr, 2120fps. 39gr, 2380fps.
H4895, 38.5gr, 1990fps. 42.5gr, 2170fps.
BLC-2, 39gr, 1730fps. 43gr, 1860fps.
No signs of leading, even though the bullets were only BHN 12.
I use LBT blue lube applied in the sardine can method.
The barrel is .3565 groove and I size the bullets .358.
Still working on a ladder of powder charges to find the most accurate loads.
Next will be going to water dropped bullets at BHN 18-19.
Really a nice caliber.

[Long Path]

Interesting, Drinks. What length barrel do you have on your HandiRifle? I've got one in Hornet, and didn't know they made Whelen barrels. You're getting the velocity on up there for lead-- Iwas considering about 1800 fps for lead.

I have a plan to put together a "cat sneeze" subsonic 180g load, but that's another thread.

[drinks]

Long Path;
I stumbled onto a 1996 Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation Commerative H&R Ultra with 26" barrel, 3x9 Bushnell scope , in excellent to like new condition in a pawn shop for $250, am not sure if it had even been fired, but it sure has now!
I want a cast bullet load of 2200-2400 fps with water dropped bullets at BHN 18-20 and seem to be very close, I have several ladders ready to shoot for accuracy the next time I get out, the ones I reported were 3 shot loads fired through a chrono just for velocity readings, I do not fire for speed and accuracy at the same time, a good way to have to buy a new chrono.
I shoot 3 loads, average them and round off to nearest 10fps, I just do not believe .0001 acuracy in a $90 instrument.
Don

[Paul B.]

Yop. Still playing with the 30-30 bullets now and then.
First off, I do not belive in water dropping bullets from the mold. JMHO, but unless your mold drops that bullet at exactly the same each time you drop that bullet into the water, then each bullet will be at a different temperature when it hits the water. I believe this will affect the hardness of each bullet to some degree. Next point, once you run that hardened bullet into a sizing die, you ruin the hardening. It may not be much, but the damage has been done.
My method is definitely more labor intensive, but I feel I get better results with it. I cast my bullets in the normal manner. After inspecting them for obvious flaws, I run them through the luber/sizer, but do not lube them. I'll seat the gas checks on at this time. (As we're discussing the .35 Whelen in this case, I size the bullets to .359" ) I use a toaster oven that I've calibrated to find the proper temperatue to "cook" the bullets. Usining a wire basket to hold the bullets, I place them in the toaster oven for a minimum of one hour, and sometimes longer, although one hour seems to be sufficient. At the end of the hour, the bullets are quickly dropped into the bucket of water. Hardness of my 14 BHN alloy will be about 28 to 30 BHN withing a short time and reach a final hardenss of about 32 BHN within one week. Now it is time to lubricate the bullets. I change out the .359" die and replace it with a .360" die. It's loose enough to not touch the sides of the bullet to any great degree, but tight enough to keep the lube process from becoming too messy.
Now we have a bullet that will act like a full metal jacket "solid" on any game animal, but wait! We want some expansion on game right? Place the bullets in a pan of water with the noses sticking out of the water and carefully play the flame of a propane torch over the nose. You really have to ab alert here as you remove the flame just when you see the metal change color. Allow the bullet to cool normally and you'll have a bullet with a hard driving area and a nose that will expand on game.
One last thing I almost forgot. When placing the bullets in the basket to heat treat them, one layer only. When you are heating those bullets, you are taking them to about 10 degrees shy of them slumping. (Starting to melt.)
Two, don't use mama's oven. When my wife bought a new over that had an extrremely accurate thermostat, I ran one batch in it. I'd been using the old oven with mixed results. Anyway, when I dumped the bulelts, I noticed a purpleish coloration on the glass of the oven's door. They coat scope lenses by baking them with chemicals to get those neat colors on the lenses, and I may have just coated my better half's oven with some kind of lead contamination. However, as much as I use that toater oven, I have not seen that same purple color so maybe it's a non-problem. My toaster oven has not for food use painted all over it.
Those are my thoughts on the subject. Hope they help.
Paul B.