April 21, 2011, 06:46 PM | #1 |
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M1 Garand Ruining Brass
I was shooting my M1 today with some reloads I made (150gr FMJ bullets with 42.4gr of H335). The brass I made these loads with was assorted once fired 30-06 brass. When I made the loads the brass was polished and free of any dents. After firing these reloads from my M1 however I discovered that most of the spent casings were dented to the point where I didn't even bother saving them to reload. Some had huge dents and in others the case mouth was deformed. So basically the M1 was taking in perfectly formed clean brass and spitting out junk.
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April 21, 2011, 07:33 PM | #2 |
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My Garand dings case mouths, too. I understand this is pretty common.
You can use a tapered punch to "iron out" the wrinkle and make it easier to fit in the resizing die. Mild dings don't generally require this step. I read somewhere that the "hump" on the operating rod is deliberate, and is designed to throw the brass clear. You may be able to control the position of the ejection, and possibly the case dings, by how much lube you use. You can also use an adjustable gas nut (gas cylinder lock screw) and control ejection force to some extent.
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April 21, 2011, 07:39 PM | #3 |
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Designed To
The Op Rod knocks the ejected cartridge forward. When properly lubed with grease this is a function of the design genius of J C Garand.
Fix the dent in the case mouth and full length resize, you'll get a few mor loadings from the brass. |
April 21, 2011, 07:44 PM | #4 |
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It's not the case mouth which really bothers me. The base of the case neck is the part where many of the dents appear. And I'm not talking about small dings. I don't have any of the brass to take a picture of but it kind of looks like this picture I found on google but without the bullet of course.
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April 21, 2011, 07:46 PM | #5 | |
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April 21, 2011, 08:19 PM | #6 |
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Where was your brass landing in relation to you and the rifle ? Properly lubed, the brass should land to your right at about the 3 o'clock position.
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April 21, 2011, 08:36 PM | #7 | |
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April 21, 2011, 08:37 PM | #8 |
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Well I am shooting indoors but the brass mostly lands at my 1 O'Clock position. Maybe it is bouncing off the side of the port. Not sure.
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April 21, 2011, 08:48 PM | #9 |
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More like 1:30 - 2:30 O'clock for me.
Look here to see what is happening upon ejection (and also why the last round always lands slightly behind you ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYfxzrTar0g That said, proper ejection timing is affected by both the powder load and it's burn-rate (affecting the port pressure). QL says 42.4gr of H335 in a 30-06 case under a 150gr bullet is only 65% case fill ...and a relatively quick burn (leading to relatively low port pressure/ejection speeds) Try any of these loads from the NRA (Master Po) and see if your problems don't clear up: Recommended .30 caliber M1 loadings from the NRA http://masterpostemple.bravepages.com/M1load.htm 147 - 155 grain FMJ or HPBT bullets IMR 3031 - 48.0 grains IMR 4895 - 49.0 grains IMR 4064 - 50.0 grains W748 - 48.0 grains AA2460 - 49.0 grains AA2520 - 51.0 grains AA2495 - 50.5 grains H4895 - 49.0 grains BLC-2 - 49.0 grains H335 - 49.0 grains Note this runs higher chamber pressure/but also gets port pressure (& ejection speed) up). RL-12 - 48.0 grains Last edited by mehavey; April 21, 2011 at 08:57 PM. |
April 21, 2011, 08:59 PM | #10 |
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I keep having this problem with my Hornady loading manual being way to conservative. For an 150gr bullet it says a max of something between 43 and 44gr of H335.
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April 21, 2011, 09:02 PM | #11 |
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I forgot to mention that my M1 dents brass and dings cas enecks too, but so far almost all are reloadable.
As I understand it, the hump was put there to throw the brass forward. The military doesn't worry about reloading and hot '06 brass in the ear can be a little distracting to the guy firing next to you from the foxhole.
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April 21, 2011, 09:07 PM | #12 |
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Be a big boy and call Brownells, they have something for you
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April 22, 2011, 12:12 AM | #13 |
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The real problem, IMHO, is that H335 is just too fast for the Garand. Go back to the classic IMR/H4895 & IMR4064 loads above (starting maybe 4 grains less if nervous)and see if your mangled cases go away.
Print this (John Clarke's) M1 article out and put it on the reading rack in your bathroom: http://www.mediafire.com/?y2eyjvnmmfj Last edited by mehavey; April 22, 2011 at 12:26 AM. |
April 22, 2011, 10:02 AM | #14 |
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Most of my M1 brass has dings, either at the case mouth or where the extractor grabs the lip of the base. All have been reloadable but sometimes I need to open the mouth a bit with my needle nose pliars so that the sizer can do its thing.
My reloads are 47.5 grains IMR 4895, Hornady 3037 FMJ bullets. Very few cases are "damaged" but more than a few have a ding. If you find that your brass is unusable, send it my way! Last edited by grumpa72; April 22, 2011 at 11:21 AM. |
April 22, 2011, 10:35 AM | #15 | |
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I don't get terrible case dents, sometimes the case mouth gets a bump. Maybe your rifle is unlocking too early in the pressure curve and the case gets wanged hard?
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April 22, 2011, 05:54 PM | #16 |
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You did not put in a high power operating spring from Wolf did you?
They don't make an M1 work better. |
April 23, 2011, 03:31 PM | #17 |
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I have 4 garands- they are fine on my brass
I have 4 garands- they are fine on my brass. I use Varget and Ramshot bigame powder. I only loose occasion brass if it hits rocks and dents.
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April 24, 2011, 05:11 PM | #18 |
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All my Garand does is dent the case mouth with 47gr of 4895. I think you need to switch powders.
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April 25, 2011, 12:46 PM | #19 |
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The load is not good, being an unfortunate combination of a spherical rifle powder and low loading density (poor case fill). In general, stick powders are easier to light and less sensitive to case fill than spherical propellants. I note the starting load in Hodgdon's load data is 47 grains of H335 with a 150 grain bullet. That's in a Winchester case. The equivalent in a Lake City or a Remington case would be about 46.5 grains.
Despite the load problem, I am not sanguine that correcting the load alone can be assured of correcting your problem. I've adjusted one of the vented gas cylinder plugs before until the rounds went from being tossed long at 1:30, to being nearby at about 4:00. I didn't see any brass indentation problems develop from the reduced operating rod action. I'm thinking the timing and spin of the ejected case are just less desirable than normal. Since the gun functions correctly otherwise, I think some small influence could be responsible. It wouldn't take much. The first thing I would do is disassemble and detail clean the whole gun, but especially the bolt. Make sure there's no carbon or lube gum build-up, particularly in the ejector tunnel. I'd swap the ejector spring, ejector, and extractor claw with my spares to see if that changes it. (You ought to have spares you keep with the gun anyway, as the bolts very occasionally self-disassemble. Always in the middle of a match. I keep my spares and a firing pin in a ZipLoc baggie in the cleaning kit recess.) You could also pop a new hammer spring in, just in case the tension there is off.
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April 25, 2011, 03:27 PM | #20 | |
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For my own future reference, what breaks ("self-disassembles") most often in your experience? |
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April 25, 2011, 04:10 PM | #21 |
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I've seen one extractor claw snap off its stem, but usually the parts themselves don't break. The extractor claw just pops out and the rest follows. Sometimes you can find all the parts, and sometimes you can't. It's one of those things that never occurs if you have the spare parts with you. I suspect it is most often caused either by a weak extractor claw detent spring or the detent recess in the claw got some debris in it at the last assembly, so the detent plunger never seated in it properly.
Another part like those is the tiny copper outside snap rings on the Springfield half-minute rear sight hoods. I used to carry a spare or two, but always wound up giving them to some other guy who had his pop off during a rapid fire string and vanish. I finally gave up on those and made my own, which use a 3/16" steel snap ring. I made several for club guns, too. Those never came off. Since I got a second Garand for the as-issued matches, I actually moved the Garand parts kit to my shooting chair's pouch. I took a look at it. I've got the ejector, extractor, extractor detent plunger, springs for both the ejector and detent, and the firing pin. Same for the M1A in another bag. Also the universal tool. I've also got a whole collection of small springs for the mouse gun and parts for the bolt. In addition I found a screw driver and bits, a hex wrench set, a spare web sling to clip to the rifle for Standing Awful-hand so I can just leave my Turner Sadlery slings in no-pulse configuration on the left arm of my shooting jacket ready to snap into place for Sitting Rapid. Not to mention a collection of odd rounds of ammo, ECI flags of two different lengths, scorecard stubs, wind slide rule, plastic wind flag strip (for the scope stand), wind speed and temperature and pressure instrument, an extra magnification spotting scope eyepiece, spare magazines, score books, mini clipboard and pencil, shooting glove, shooting glasses, and so on and so forth. No question about it: my shooting chair is starting to resemble my basement. A Fibber McGee's closet incident is just a matter of time.
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April 25, 2011, 06:20 PM | #22 | ||
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April 25, 2011, 07:00 PM | #23 |
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I'm thinking maybe this would be a use for one of those Segue two-wheeled motorized carts.
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May 14, 2011, 06:37 PM | #24 | |
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May 15, 2011, 08:36 AM | #25 |
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Followed the youtube link above. Also found this one. His brass sprays anywhere from 10 o-clock to 5.
I'm looking at CMP garrands and find this thread really interesting. I really don't know much about the M1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGAL8...1&feature=fvwp |
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